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Ujitsuna
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 Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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| I think the whole "Sialeeds had a hunch but Lucretia was so amazing she actually suspected her" was just a thing Konami threw in to make people gasp at Lucretia's greatness. Although I hate Lucretia with the flaming intensity of the sun, I admit she was a competant strategist, even when events magically changed to suit her ways. |
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Aurelien
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| Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Would need to apologize if you bet on world rank's #1? No, because you did the best you could. |
The thing is not simply "doing the right thing" and "it's a mistake", but the effect of "the mistake" should be considered too. Sure there's nothing wrong with betting on world rank #1 tennis player. However, how much was gambled? If you bet all your family's money, then heck yeah you'd need to apologize because that screwed up your family's life by losing all the money that they got. But if it's only $5, then no need to apologize.
Now if we look at Lucretia/Sialeeds' case, Lucretia's mistake ended up:
1. Prolonging the war
2. Lyon got critical injury almost to death
3. Discontent army and low morale seeing another Royalty member switching sides
That is a big blow. Added with the fact that Godwins asked for New Armes' help afterwards, Prince's Army was pretty much under pressure ever since up to the point that they had to leave the HQ (previously having to leave Doraat, Sable, and Lordlake as well). The effect of the mistake is big, and therefore, she felt the need to apologize. If she stopped Sialeeds back then, the war would've been stopped and won, peace returned to Falena, and Lyon would be healthy.
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Rezard
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| Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Hayashi Ujitsuna wrote: |
| I think the whole "Sialeeds had a hunch but Lucretia was so amazing she actually suspected her" was just a thing Konami threw in to make people gasp at Lucretia's greatness. Although I hate Lucretia with the flaming intensity of the sun, I admit she was a competant strategist, even when events magically changed to suit her ways. |
Yes, you are right, konami did that to make Lucretia seem wonderful, but every time that happened, I speculated she didn't really know, but was only bragging about herself, like, it is easy to say you already knew about something after it happened, right?
I don't like this type of "know it all strategist", it would be better for the game if she just would be quiet about or say she didn't know. That's just my opinion.
| Quote: |
| The thing is not simply "doing the right thing" and "it's a mistake", but the effect of "the mistake" should be considered too. Sure there's nothing wrong with betting on world rank #1 tennis player. However, how much was gambled? If you bet all your family's money, then heck yeah you'd need to apologize because that screwed up your family's life by losing all the money that they got. But if it's only $5, then no need to apologize. |
Gambling in an irresponsible manner is never right, even if you win.
I don't think the effects are important, but rather the "guiltiness" of the actions. I'll use an analogy.
You are responsible driver, you are passing crossroads and the sign is green for you, you have felling that a crazy driver may pass, just a felling, but since the sign is open for you, you go. What happens? A crazy driver pass by without looking at the sign and yours cars got hit.
Now it doesn't manner if you kill the crazy driver or your cars are thrown against other civilians, it is not your fault, you don't need to apologize, because it is crazy driver fault, you are not to blame.
It doesn't manner if your crash destroyed just your cars or burned down the entire city, it is still not your fault. If you apologize, it is just because you want to pose as a "nice guy".
About Queens Campaign: bear in mind that the ones who had the worst effect were the godwin, their main army was crushed, to the point that they have no other choice but to give half of Falena to New Armes, it is desperate act.
You losing your HQ is the best thing that happen to you, you got to destroy New Armes simply by use the Dawn Rune and the enemies drown to their deaths. You don't even have to break a sweat. It being such pathetic easy win totally ruins the excitement we could have fighting against a superior force. |
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Aurelien
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| Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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Your analogy about green light is not the same case because in that case, your feeling of someone going to go through the red light from the other side is based on simply "blind guts" as there will be no supporting facts other than "I have a feeling it's going to happen". Therefore, no need for you to blame yourself as the whole thing was 100% caused by the other driver. Plus, there's nothing you can do about it other than "not going through the green light to begin with". That means that if you go through the green light, then you will get hit from the other side. Not passing through the green light is something that is illogical. Therefore, the blame is totally on the other driver.
On the other hand, Lucretia could still stop Sialeeds' betrayal (the "car accident") without stopping the Queen's Campaign ("you going through the green light"). Therefore, the blame is partially on Lucretia's side.
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| Rezard wrote: |
| It being such pathetic easy win totally ruins the excitement we could have fighting against a superior force. |
I have been wondering about this for quite some time. You've been saying that Suikoden V is too easy because Lucretia "knows it all". However, could you please show me what is exactly "harder" in Suikoden I, II, III, and IV? Because I really consider Godwins to be one of the smarter enemies (Gizel is not stupid by any means). But yeah, I'm interested to see your answer on this.
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Rezard
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| Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Aurelien wrote: |
| Your analogy about green light is not the same case because in that case, your feeling of someone going to go through the red light from the other side is based on simply "blind guts" as there will be no supporting facts other than "I have a feeling it's going to happen". Therefore, no need for you to blame yourself as the whole thing was 100% caused by the other driver. Plus, there's nothing you can do about it other than "not going through the green light to begin with". That means that if you go through the green light, then you will get hit from the other side. Not passing through the green light is something that is illogical. Therefore, the blame is totally on the other driver. |
Well Lucretia didn't have any evidence that Sialeeds would betray the army, so it was also "blind guts", that's way we agree she did the right thing. In this case, the blame is also totally on the other driver, Sialeeds!
| Aurelien wrote: |
| On the other hand, Lucretia could still stop Sialeeds' betrayal (the "car accident") without stopping the Queen's Campaign ("you going through the green light"). Therefore, the blame is partially on Lucretia's side. |
As I already told you, in order to win the war, Lucretia has to trust the prince's followers, so she can't go through the green light without trusting people. Bear in mind that Lucretia is neurotic, she's even suspicious of the prince (remember when they met), so she must have suspected lots of people and there are many people who could potentially betray you. There's no way to win the war like that, she must trust people.
It would be different if we had some evidence that Sialedds would betray the prince.
| Aurelien wrote: |
| I have been wondering about this for quite some time. You've been saying that Suikoden V is too easy because Lucretia "knows it all". However, could you please show me what is exactly "harder" in Suikoden I, II, III, and IV? Because I really consider Godwins to be one of the smarter enemies (Gizel is not stupid by any means). But yeah, I'm interested to see your answer on this. |
First of all it I didn't say it was easy because Lucretia knew everything (fact that I don't believe), but more because of how you won certain battles. I said I like more strategist who are not perfect and might do mistakes.
All Suikoden strategists use the "true" runes to win the war, but in Lucretia's case this was somewhat different, the two major battles (fort hatred fall and Ceras Castle takeover) are win simply by using the dawn rune to drown all the enemies, when the fighting starts, the battle is already over. It is boring to win only because of the dawn rune.
It is like giving ballistic missiles to one side and nothing to the other, then the strategist bombards the enemy killing 90% of their army and because of this is called genius. I find fair fight much more interesting than press a button (Sindar Ruins) and your enemies are immediately gone.
I also think the godwins were not smart at all, when fighting on the queens campaign, their army is scattered across the filed, while your army fights as one, they are defeated as you easily "harvest" their troops trough the field.
I still don't get why the heck they attacked the demi-humans and the raflefleet, this only lead to increase on your allies numbers. Divide to conquer, he should have bought Raflefleet (giving them free trade or even giving subsidy) and after he defeated the "rebels", Godwin could do whatever he wanted.
Don't get me wrong, I loved Suikoden V, yet some minor stuff, like some battles, didn't please me.(Ex: "Please don't kill the poor enemy soldiers" in the fall of fort hatred was terrible, they could have a make a better excuse for a battle.)
If you want to know why most of Lucretia tactics relied deep on luck, see: Lucretia as a Tactition |
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Ujitsuna
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| Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Aurelien wrote: |
| Rezard wrote: |
| It being such pathetic easy win totally ruins the excitement we could have fighting against a superior force. |
I have been wondering about this for quite some time. You've been saying that Suikoden V is too easy because Lucretia "knows it all". However, could you please show me what is exactly "harder" in Suikoden I, II, III, and IV? Because I really consider Godwins to be one of the smarter enemies (Gizel is not stupid by any means). But yeah, I'm interested to see your answer on this. |
I think The Godwins are the stupidest enemies we've ever seen in Suikoden. Nearly every action they've taken since taking over the Sun Palace and killing the Queen was on the road to disaster, each step seemed as if Gizel didn't really care if he won the war or not and was on the self destructive path. I've voiced my opinion on this in other threads, and how insanely predictable and unpredictable in bad ways for themselves The Godwins are. |
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Aurelien
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| Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Rezard wrote: |
| It is like giving ballistic missiles to one side and nothing to the other, then the strategist bombards the enemy killing 90% of their army and because of this is called genius. |
What you're totally missing out is the fact that Godwins have both Sun Rune and Twilight Rune in their hands, while Frey only has the Dawn Rune. The difference is not the "weapon", but how they use the weapon, which means that Lucretia did outsmart the enemy by utilizing the full use of the Dawn Rune while the Godwins failed to do so.
| Rezard wrote: |
| I still don't get why the heck they attacked the demi-humans and the raflefleet, |
It's said quite literally in the game why they did that. They attacked the demi-humans because Godwins don't want to have demi-humans in Falena. And they don't want Raftfleet in Falena because Raftfleet would have some sort of power. Godwins want everything to be under their control. Obviously Raftfleet and demi-humans can't be controlled by them, so they'd try to eliminate them instead.
| Uji wrote: |
| I think The Godwins are the stupidest enemies we've ever seen in Suikoden. Nearly every action they've taken since taking over the Sun Palace and killing the Queen was on the road to disaster, each step seemed as if Gizel didn't really care if he won the war or not and was on the self destructive path. |
I think that's a far exaggeration on your part on that first sentence.
I failed to see how Scarlet Moon Empire in Suikoden I isn't worse. They literally never tried to attack and annihilate the Liberation Army at all. It's like "Hey, there's this rebel called the Liberation Army attacking our troops, let's let them do whatever they want until we lost" Is that not more stupid?
What's so smart about Highland in Suikoden II? Their General (Jowy) even helped us out to kill Luca Blight (who isn't smart but just relying on pure strength). He became the new King and didn't even have the guts to kill us at Jowston Hill. Can anyone be more stupid?
I can't quite remember the whole thing about Suikoden III as I played it long time ago, but I don't recall any great tactic by Albert either as he relied more often than not to the "magic" may it be from Luc, Sarah, or Yuber rather than having "strategy".
Looking at how people hate Suikoden IV, surely it can't be smart. No?
To me, Godwins are the most 'tactical' enemy that we've ever seen. They manipulated many different things for their own good. That's smart, in my opinion.
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Rezard
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| Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Aurelien wrote: |
| What you're totally missing out is the fact that Godwins have both Sun Rune and Twilight Rune in their hands |
Yes they did, but they could only use them near the end of the game, when the war was almost over (after they lost StormFist). The Ballistic missiles aren't the dawn rune, but the sindar ruins who flood the enemy at your will.
| Aurelien wrote: |
| It's said quite literally in the game why they did that. |
I noticed that, but what I didn't get was "Why now?", they could handle the minor problem after dealing with the major ones (your rebel army).
| Aurelien wrote: |
I failed to see how Scarlet Moon Empire in Suikoden I isn't worse. They literally never tried to attack and annihilate the Liberation Army at all. It's like "Hey, there's this rebel called the Liberation Army attacking our troops, let's let them do whatever they want until we lost" Is that not more stupid?
What's so smart about Highland in Suikoden II? Their General (Jowy) even helped us out to kill Luca Blight (who isn't smart but just relying on pure strength). He became the new King and didn't even have the guts to kill us at Jowston Hill. Can anyone be more stupid?
I can't quite remember the whole thing about Suikoden III as I played it long time ago, but I don't recall any great tactic by Albert either as he relied more often than not to the "magic" may it be from Luc, Sarah, or Yuber rather than having "strategy".
Looking at how people hate Suikoden IV, surely it can't be smart. No?
To me, Godwins are the most 'tactical' enemy that we've ever seen. They manipulated many different things for their own good. That's smart, in my opinion. |
You are confusing a few things, the Godwins are the most "plotter" enemies we ever had, they weave plots the entire game. Lucretia is also much more of a "plotter" than tactician.
Please noticed that the Godwin aren't smart simply because they weave plots, they made lots of tactical errors (I've show the main ones on my last post). It is probably because of all those mistakes that Uji and I find them stupid. Well, maybe he has different reasons.
On the other hand, Luca Blight, for example, never made a single plot, he simply advanced on you using military power, but he committed few mistakes, so we really can't call him stupid. |
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Aurelien
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| Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Rezard wrote: |
Yes they did, but they could only use them near the end of the game, when the war was almost over (after they lost StormFist). The Ballistic missiles aren't the dawn rune, but the sindar ruins who flood the enemy at your will.
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In which the Godwins can also operate because apparently it doesn't matter whether it's the Dawn Rune or the Twilight Rune that activated things (as shown by how Dawn Rune worked just fine in the Deep Twilight Forest's Sindar Ruin). So there's nothing stopping Godwins to use the ballistic missiles. They were simply outsmarted by not considering that option. They knew that the Ceras Lake Castle HQ didn't just come out of nowhere. The fact that it showed up, and the flooding the Hatred Fort should be enough to get into conclusion that there was some sort of sluice gate in Ceras Ruins. They had their chances just like Frey did. They just got their mind stuck elsewhere.
| Rezard wrote: |
| I noticed that, but what I didn't get was "Why now?", they could handle the minor problem after dealing with the major ones (your rebel army). |
Well here's the deal. When it comes to Raftfleet, they know that Raftfleet didn't like Godwins anyway. So they tried to eliminate them ASAP before they became a problem. But obviously they failed. Then when it comes to the beavers, well it's half-revenge (for helping Lordlake restoration) and the fact that beavers won't help Godwins. Godwins hoped that eliminating them would prevent them to help Frey. But obviously they failed to eliminate them.
| Rezard wrote: |
| On the other hand, Luca Blight, for example, never made a single plot, he simply advanced on you using military power, but he committed few mistakes, so we really can't call him stupid. |
While he only committed few mistakes, he was stupid because there was no achievement whatsoever from his part. He let go Kiba and Klaus (who the heck would let go their General and Strategist so easily to the enemy?), he trusted Jowy (Jowy was an enemy for God's sake), he promised Jowy that he can marry Jillia (giving a chance for Jowy to become a Blight family, meaning Royalty), he was constantly outsmarted on the battlefield (but only winning because of his strength), and he didn't see the betrayal coming at all (Jowy came up with the idea to poison Agares, is there anything that make Luca to trust Jowy enough to not think that Jowy might backstab Luca too?). What's not stupid about him?
To me, Godwins were smart, but they were outsmarted by Lucretia. As simple as that. Being on the losing side doesn't immediately translate them into "stupid". What you considered as tactical error (spread out army is simply "gameplay element" that has nothing to do with the storyline strategy) was not really tactical error. I think their biggest mistake was simply at the very beginning when Gizel plotted too much to get Frey to dislike him. That's the only mistake that I can see as "mistake" rather than being outsmarted.
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Scarlet Assassin
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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The real reason for the Godwins doing stupid things is not in their intelligence, it's in their motivation and their goals. If Gizel could have frey on his side he would, if Gizel could have Lucretia on his side, he'd spit in her face. Lucretia is obviously moer of an asset, so why give up on such an asset? Because to Gizel and Marscal it wasn't about winning the war. The war wasn't a big threat to them for a while and they would rather destroy the "non-Falenan" elements before going after a member of the Royal family that they don't think can hurt them. They were trying to improve the nation by taking it over, not just taking over for the hell of it. It's not about the power for the Godwins, it's about what's right for Falena (in their minds.)
And I'm inclined to agree with Aurelien here, Luca was the dumbest enemy in Suikoden. He made stupid mistakes constantly and just let things happen to him. I don't think for a second that I would've trusted Jowy if I were him, and to me that's one of the major holes in the second game. Luca was strong, but he was so dumb that it was like beating a five year old at checkers. You let him have an advantage, but it doesn't matter because he doesn't understand the game. Luca had the brute strength, i.e. the materials and capability to get things done, but he didn't know the first thing about what he was doing, and thus, all those materials went to waste.
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Flik_19
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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| I would like to see the disciple of Shu be a strategist. I always thought that Shu was the coolest out of all the strategist's. I think they were reaching for it when they made Eleanor Strategist in IV. It's k she is a Silverberg but that's about it. Lucretia was pretty cool alittle to bossy and stuff but least she had a history. I would rather see the strategist be an unknown Silverberg where we know his father or something. Or someone like Shu that was a student or associated with the Silverberg's. I also like the idea of the assistant strategist being a kobold or another non human type. I think that would add alittle spice to the plot. |
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Scarlet Assassin
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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Need I remind you all that Ridley was one of the strategists for the Jowstonian army in Suiko 2? A non-human strat isn't anything special, you just have to keep your mind open when the definition of Strategist is in question.
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Onimaru
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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I want to see Leon Silverberg as the Main strageist of SVI. I know it probably wont be the case, but I'd love to see it anyways. I'd like to see a post SIII, with a withered old Leon having come to some new understandings in life, perhaps even pit him against Albert. Talk about a powerhouse stratgist, an old wheelchair ridden Leon - surly with old age and more cunning that ever. Ahh, Le Sigh. In a perfect Suikoworld. I suppose this would also give the Tenkai the option to summon Yuber..buaha.
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Dilber Novum
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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The new strategist in Suikoden VI? Hmm... I wish to have Lucretia Merces (I love this woman!!) Albert Silverberg would also be a nice choice, because he sounds like Shu. Or the master Shu himself!
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SwissStopwatch
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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Well... yeah. Leon never will be the Tenki star unless Konami decides to revise that rule about not changing what Star of Destiny a character is born under, which would make little sense (OK, so, you're born under one star one game, then next game, you're suddenly under a different one?), although they've had some funny business with at least one character having the potential to be placed in 2 different slots, circumstances depending. I think that happened in S2 (not that I ever played it). And, of course, the chief strategist basically has to be the Tenki star, if they'd like to continue following the Water Margin pattern. Unless they decide to change that, he can't ever show up in the Stars of Destiny as anything but the assistant strategist. So you're basically looking at "never" as opposed to "unlikely"... although, come to think of it, having the assistant strategist act as main strategist for most of the game might be interesting.
That said, summoning Yuber to work for the Tenkai star would be hilarious because of the implausibility. I approve!
I'll be pretty happy with a strategist that is a new character (because really, I've seen enough of -most- of the strategists I've seen already), and is also not transparently based off of Zhuge Liang. Or, if he/she is based off of Zhuge Liang, they'd better include a part where he botches 5 consecutive invasions of whoever the big bad enemy is. |
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