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Lucretia as a tactition *SPOILERS*
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Cupil




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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

[quote="poorguy171"]
Cupil wrote:
Onix wrote:

But I really wondered how she knew the Sindar ruins in Ceras Lake...How did she know that there was the key for the destruction of Hatred Fortress? I mean Zweig wouldn't just tell her everything he knew.. .


With all of her studying, she probably already knew that Felena was a river based society. So she might have figured that a society that predates the Queendom, and is known to be technologically advanced may have figured a way to manipulate the waterways in some way. At the time (as long as she is questioned during the sequence of events)Lucretia isn't entirely positive on the outcome, she keeps you in the dark until the big reveal of the master plan.

Doesn't it say in the game that Zweig told her about it? I remember him saying something about telling her about ruins and not being suprised that she would want to use them as a weapon.

Oh yeah, now that you mention it he does say something to that degree when you first meet at the entrance to the ruins. He seemed to bit...grumpy(?). I mostly remembered the answer he gave you if you decide to point out that he doesn't look like a scholar. On the count that the statement made me wonder if Zweig had actually met some of the earlier Princes of Felena.

poorguy171 wrote:
Cupil wrote:


Is it just me or does Lucretia come off as a bit of a perfectionist. In terms of being a tactician she goes out of her way to avoid looking less than perfect. (I would cite some examples, but I'm iffy on the count that they're plot spoilers..sort of)

For a lot of the game, that's absolutely true. Remember when she told Lelei that a tactition should never apologize in public? And how she always keeps quiet if she's not 100% sure about something. However, as the plot progresses, she seems to realize that it's okay for a tactition to make mistakes, and eventually changes her philosophy.


Yup, I loved how she developed in the game, and the fact that she recalls a traumatic sight in her childhood to the Prince kind of emphasizes a kind of kinship between them. Which was way more satisfying than the whole "You can touch people's hearts," thing..Ugh *shudder*
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

poorguy171 wrote:
How is this luck? The Prince has the Dawn Rune, so she made use of that. Obviously, she could've used a different strategy if he didn't have it. This is why I think she's such a great tactition. She uses all sorts of elements in her environment to her advantage to make one plan that's not only unexpected but extremely difficult to counter.


Are you serious? They give you a ruin that control the river flow, turn a key and all your enemies drown to death. It's like giving one side of a war nuclear weapons, they turn a key and all the enemies die. Simple as that. Are you saying that Lucretia having a "nuclear weapon"(win and obliterate your enemy without fighting) isn't lucky?

Sure, using resources to the fullest is really wise, but give me a break, give her some aerial unit or something that still doesn't grant stupidly easy win.

poorguy171 wrote:
Everyone knew that Barows had something to do with the uprising. Regardless of how the Prince had gotten the Rune, he had it, and she used this to her advantage.


Did they knew? So I guess Arshat and Ferid are really evil, executing Lord Rovere and imposing such a terrible curse against Lordlake.

Nobody knew, Lucretia suspected that the Barows were involved, she says so herself. Now, if the rune is in the baseamnt, Armes, or somewhere else, that she couldn't know.
Also, if she really knew, then she would have done something to stop execution of Lord Rovere and the fate of Lordlake.


poorguy171 wrote:
She doesn't. That's why she sends the Prince in to convince them to help. And it's not like her plan depended on the beavers. Who's to say she couldn't have slowed down the water flow some other way?


I'm sure there's plenty of people who can build huge constructions in a week.

poorguy171 wrote:
Actually yeah, the dwarves were allied with the Prince already (which was not Lucretia's doing), and so there's no reason they couldn't have dug a tunnel to the ruins. And they did not join solely because Nether Gate attacked. They had in fact agreed to help him before Nether Gate even appeared, they simply supported him officially (full force) after the attack.


You befriended the dwarves after the armes's invasion, so there's no way they were in her original planning. All happen after that so her live would became easier.
There are lot of reasons why they couldn't dig a tunnel, main one is that it takes time to dig one, you simply can't wait, you have lost lots of cities, the people will starve soon.

poorguy171 wrote:
To say that Lucretia is bad and the Silverbergs are incredible because we don't know how she would've performed in one of their wars is ridiculous. Not only do we know that she's performed well in at least 2 Falenan wars, but we don't know how the Silverbergs would've performed in either Falenan war.


I didn't say the Silverbergs are incredible, but I did say we can't measure how well she would do in a fair fight (a fair fight is one where you do not turn a key and tons of water fall in the head of your enemies).

She is good, but against another good strategist all I can say is that she is ordinary. I can't say how well she would do against another good strategist in open space with the same number.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

poorguy171 wrote:
And your point about having no history is false as well. We know for a fact that she used genius tactics in order to thwart the Armes invasion (this is stated in the game). We also know that she served Falena for years, and that she's been in the country for over 8 years.


This was MY point. You might want to read up on who posted what...

That said, it's not false in any way to claim that Lucretia has no history in strategy. While i freely admitted in my first post that she did participate in two wars as a strategist, that really doesn't mean a whole lot. 8 years as a strategist and two wars. It almost seems like Konami wants us to relate her to Leon (you know, that with the whole not wanting to have too many innocent Falenan lives lost).

My point about lack of history is that she doesn't have anything other than those two points in her past. There is nothing to say "this is pure strategy." Sure, she was a strategist on the winning side in two wars... but was she the ONLY strategist for Felena in the Armes war? She was the Godwin's Strategist. There were likely more than one strategist on Felena's side during that time. While she may be the most pronounced, she wasn't the only one...

The Silverbergs, by comparison, have the pedigree (which, alone, is crap), but along with that each of the "main" silverbergs have gone through multiple wars along while holding the position of strategist.

poorguy171 wrote:
To say that Lucretia is bad and the Silverbergs are incredible because we don't know how she would've performed in one of their wars is ridiculous. Not only do we know that she's performed well in at least 2 Falenan wars, but we don't know how the Silverbergs would've performed in either Falenan war.


As for this Silverberg Vs. Lucretia bit, I never said what you claim i'm saying. I said that in order to say Lucretia is better than the Silverbergs, you would have to prove she'd do better in their wars (or they'd do worse in hers). Because it's nearly impossible to do so, it's going to be difficult to prove one over the other (unless she meets a Silverberg in a later Suikoden).

Oh, by the way... The issue about luck, is valid. My question is, how do you, as the prince, KNOW Lucretia planned such a strategy? It seemed to me, that after any great and marvelous success happened, Lucretia took credit for a "master plan"... but when she fails (like the Ceras Lake incident), she blames the Prince for his decision. And, while it can be claimed that it was the Prince's decision, it seems interesting that Lucretia had NO PLAN of how to actually defend the castle. Her only plan was to run away. You'd think a strategist would be able to come up with something if she was going to give the leader a choice on what to do....
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poorguy171




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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Are you serious? They give you a ruin that control the river flow, turn a key and all your enemies drown to death. It's like giving one side of a war nuclear weapons, they turn a key and all the enemies die. Simple as that. Are you saying that Lucretia having a "nuclear weapon"(win and obliterate your enemy without fighting) isn't lucky?

Sure, using resources to the fullest is really wise, but give me a break, give her some aerial unit or something that still doesn't grant stupidly easy win.


Yes, I am serious. Every hero has had a powerful Rune in every Suikoden. It played a major role in all the wars. I don't see you insulting Elenor for having Lazlo use his Rune of Punishment or anything like that. And while you may see it as incredibly cheap, it's not luck-based regardless.

Did they knew? So I guess Arshat and Ferid are really evil, executing Lord Rovere and imposing such a terrible curse against Lordlake.

Did you pay any attention to the plot? Arshtat (Ferid was not involved) executed the Rovere family because of the Sun Rune. Also, I did not mean that everyone knew from the beginning. But when Faroush and co. are allied with the Barows faction, they all have suspicions.

Nobody knew, Lucretia suspected that the Barows were involved, she says so herself. Now, if the rune is in the baseamnt, Armes, or somewhere else, that she couldn't know.
Also, if she really knew, then she would have done something to stop execution of Lord Rovere and the fate of Lordlake.


And it sure is lucky that Ted escaped and made it back to Tir, that Jowy and Riou stimbled upon the hidden cave, and that Lazlo happened to be up with Commander Glen. Using that argument insults just about every strategist in the series.

You befriended the dwarves after the armes's invasion, so there's no way they were in her original planning. All happen after that so her live would became easier.
There are lot of reasons why they couldn't dig a tunnel, main one is that it takes time to dig one, you simply can't wait, you have lost lots of cities, the people will starve soon.


You might want to replay the game. You befriend the dwarves shortly after the Armes alliance begins (you do so in order to get to the Dragon Horse Cavalry). You don't lose your castle until the very end of the alliance. Also, dwarves are fast diggers, so there's no reason they couldn't have dug a tunnel right then (considering that there is absolutely no sign of any rush to get back to the castle). All towns were evacuated, and as far as we know, people have sufficient supplies/food.

I didn't say the Silverbergs are incredible, but I did say we can't measure how well she would do in a fair fight (a fair fight is one where you do not turn a key and tons of water fall in the head of your enemies).

You seem to be ignoring all her strategies that don't involve the Ceras Lake Ruins, such as having Oboro create a fire to make the people of Doraat panic. Or evacuating towns early and taking all food and supplies to stress Armes supply lines. She had plenty of strategies that did not involve luck or any "special advantage."

This was MY point. You might want to read up on who posted what...

I deeply apologize! Perhaps I shouldn't try to post at 3 in the morning :D.

My point about lack of history is that she doesn't have anything other than those two points in her past. There is nothing to say "this is pure strategy." Sure, she was a strategist on the winning side in two wars... but was she the ONLY strategist for Felena in the Armes war? She was the Godwin's Strategist. There were likely more than one strategist on Felena's side during that time. While she may be the most pronounced, she wasn't the only one...

The game specifically states that it was her tactics that won the war.

The Silverbergs, by comparison, have the pedigree (which, alone, is crap), but along with that each of the "main" silverbergs have gone through multiple wars along while holding the position of strategist.

Well if you're comparing the entire family at once, obviously they're "better." That's like comparing a barrel of apples to a single orange. I'm saying that you can't say that each Silverberg is better than Lucretia solely because they have a history.

As for this Silverberg Vs. Lucretia bit, I never said what you claim i'm saying. I said that in order to say Lucretia is better than the Silverbergs, you would have to prove she'd do better in their wars (or they'd do worse in hers). Because it's nearly impossible to do so, it's going to be difficult to prove one over the other (unless she meets a Silverberg in a later Suikoden).

In order to say Lucretia is as good, if not better, than ANY of the Silverbergs, you'd have to figure out how well she'd have done in one of their wars (and vice versa)... and to say, in such scenarios, that she knows the layout and history of the areas, would also imply that the Silverbergs would hold the same knowledge of Felena.


As far as I can tell, you did say that. We can compare her to each Silverberg if we look at the tactics they used. For example, let's compare Lucretia to Elenor. They both used similar tactics, so I would say they're about equally skilled. Lucretia used things such as Sindar ruins, lack of support for the enemy, or debris at the bottom of the rive. Elenor used a fleet of enemy ships, and a cave in Obel to her advantage. They both use their surroundings to their advantage to surprise the enemy, which is very tactical and a good strategy.

And while Lucretia may not have skill passed down each generation in her family, she did study for approximately 10 years in Harmonia. I'm sure that increased her skill greatly, and makes up for the lack of "family skill" that the Silverbergs have.

Oh, by the way... The issue about luck, is valid. My question is, how do you, as the prince, KNOW Lucretia planned such a strategy? It seemed to me, that after any great and marvelous success happened, Lucretia took credit for a "master plan"... but when she fails (like the Ceras Lake incident), she blames the Prince for his decision. And, while it can be claimed that it was the Prince's decision, it seems interesting that Lucretia had NO PLAN of how to actually defend the castle. Her only plan was to run away. You'd think a strategist would be able to come up with something if she was going to give the leader a choice on what to do....

You're right, we don't know for sure that she had planned on everything from the beginning. But seeing as everything turned out favorable in the end, that's no reason to doubt her/say it was based on luck.

And I don't remember her even blaming the Prince (what's this Ceras Lake incident you're referring to). And the reasons for not staying and defending the castle were blatantly stated by multiple characters. The Prince's forces were badly outnumbered, and while they could possibly manage to defend it, it would result in unecessary casualties. She chose to abandon the castle because she A) had a decoy Prince to distract the enemy and B) she had the Sindar ruins and sluice gates.

I don't want to see this topic turn into a Strategist A vs. Strategist B debate, so we should probably just drop the Lucretia vs. Silverbergs aspect (sorry I started a debate with it :D). I believe it was meant to discuss Lucretia as a tactition, not compare her to others (seeing as that's very difficult to do).
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mumbay

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I say the lucretia is a good tactician i mean i don't want to restart the debate but her trying to scare the people away with the shop blowing up was pretty good. i mean she could of easily just let the water drown them all. As well as the beavers to make the dam now i say she knew the extents but how did the dam they make stand up so well. I know beavers make dams bit didn't hatred fortress get made by beavers. The idea to also flood the castle was genius i mean they left they're own weapons there. i also would commend her with using oboro's skills. I say poorguy you are white that she used her advantages. and btw all silverbergs used some kind advantage in battles. so they're all equal possibly all a bit better then one another though but lets not start a debate again
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

mumbay wrote:
I say the lucretia is a good tactician i mean i don't want to restart the debate but her trying to scare the people away with the shop blowing up was pretty good. i mean she could have easily just let the water drown them all. As well as the beavers to make the dam now i say she knew the extents but how did the dam they make stand up so well. I know beavers make dams bit didn't hatred fortress get made by beavers. The idea to also flood the castle was genius i mean they left they're own weapons there. i also would commend her with using oboro's skills. I say poorguy you are white that she used her advantages. and btw all silverbergs used some kind advantage in battles. so they're all equal possibly all a bit better then one another though but lets not start a debate again


Well, I'm sure the water flow slowed down after actually hitting Hatred Fortress. The beaver's dam didn't have to actually stop the water flow, it just needed to slow it down so that it didn't gain momentum and turn into another tidal wave.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

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And it sure is lucky that Ted escaped and made it back to Tir, that Jowy and Riou stimbled upon the hidden cave, and that Lazlo happened to be up with Commander Glen. Using that argument insults just about every strategist in the series.


I don't get it, I am not insulting her. Just because I said she is a ordinary compared to the Silverbergs, am I insulting her? Or because I said she counted multiple times with lucky?

You are seeing my comments about portraying her as more human as an insult to her. Why is that? If I don't think someone is super genius, am I insulting them? I don't think so. Perhaps that's why you don't agree with me, please don't see my arguments as insulting and try to get the logic out of then.

I don't have much time to replay the game, but I am pretty sure that:

1) People suspected Barows, nobody knew for sure he stole the dawn.
2) Arshat, even if she was under directly influence of the Sun rune, only executed Lord Rovere and dried LordLake because she believes she was betrayed. She believes it was a crime against her.
3) If I remember correctly, first you go to Sauronix Castle by boat, but once you lose Dorrat, then the dwarfes "let" you use one of their tunnels and after that, they join you.

My memory can betray me, someone could help me please.

About the fast digging, once the dwarves destroyed Yashuna water supply, they didn't fix until after the end of the game. There are other reasons why they couldn't create a tunnel that tunnel at the time, also I could analyze other of her strategies or compare to the others tacticians that used the true runes to their advantage (at this times, they using their true runes are not merited to the tactician) and other stuff, but you are complaining about the debate, after all, disagreeing that Lucretia is extraordinary, super tactician, the best of all suikodens, is a insult, isn't it?

So I'll quit, if someone wants to continue, be my quest.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I don't get it, I am not insulting her. Just because I said she is a ordinary compared to the Silverbergs, am I insulting her? Or because I said she counted multiple times with lucky?

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you're insulting her. However, I disagree that most/all of her strategies are based on luck. That's what I'm trying to argue against :D.

1) People suspected Barows, nobody knew for sure he stole the dawn.

And nobody needed to know for sure that he'd stolen it. People had suspicions, Lucretia employed a detective, and Luserina knew that something was being hidden in the basement. And like I said before, it was chance that any hero got a True/powerful Rune. And in most of the games, the Rune was involved in the plot/strategies.

2) Arshat, even if she was under directly influence of the Sun rune, only executed Lord Rovere and dried LordLake because she believes she was betrayed. She believes it was a crime against her.

The Sun Rune made her feel this way as well. She felt that justice was on her side no matter what, and that anyone who made any move against her is an enemy that must be punished. Remember Stormfist? She had no solid evidence that Godwin had done anything, and yet she was ready to completely destroy Stormfist. And regardless of the truth, the Lordlake uprising technically was a crime against her. The Barows family lied and made it seem like Rovere and Lordlake had betrayed her. It was only until later that people really started to question this.

3) If I remember correctly, first you go to Sauronix Castle by boat, but once you lose Dorrat, then the dwarfes "let" you use one of their tunnels and after that, they join you.

That's correct, but they let you use their tunnels to get to Sauronix, not to get to the Ceras Lake ruins. And Wabon lets you use their tunnels because Gunde introduces you to him. It's not like the dwarves start out as an enemy, or have any reason to refuse Faroush's request.

About the fast digging, once the dwarves destroyed Yashuna water supply, they didn't fix until after the end of the game. There are other reasons why they couldn't create a tunnel that tunnel at the time, also I could analyze other of her strategies or compare to the others tacticians that used the true runes to their advantage (at this times, they using their true runes are not merited to the tactician) and other stuff, but you are complaining about the debate, after all, disagreeing that Lucretia is extraordinary, super tactician, the best of all suikodens, is a insult, isn't it?

Actually, they fix the leak shortly after they've broken it. If you go back a little later in the game, the springs are filled with water again. And I'm not saying they created the tunnel to the ruins from scratch. They've been digging around under Falena for years, I'm sure they were already had some tunnel nearby at least.

And I don't understand that last part. Are you saying that I'm trying to call Lucretia the best in the series, and therefore insulting other tactitions? That's not true. I don't believe Lucretia to be the best in the series/Suikoden world, nor do I mean to insult other tactitions (although Lucretia is my favorite tactition and one of my favorite characters in the series). I do, however, feel that she is just as good as the others in the series, and feel that looking down upon her just because she performed so well in V is unfair.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:

THEM: A lot of people are saying that she had very weak and predictable strategies, and the only real "strategy" she used was just predicting the future.

...That's pretty much the definition of strategy right there. I'm huge on military strategies and tactics myself, and I've learned that if you can guess the future, you can time things perfectly, leading to near-certain victory.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

She as a connection to the howling voice guild to me that means there is somthing special about her and cathri reminds her of the organisation before she joins you i agree she isnt as good as shu but she was definatly not a bad stragist many of her strategs were just differnt from wats being doin before because she showed a definant knowledge of Falania and of wat the sindar had left behind.

and i luv the fan very samari warriors
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

just because she knows cathari doesn't mean lucreatia has a connection with the howling voice guild. you know they could of been drunk in a bar and met each other there :P
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Lucretia was clued up as a strategist making her one of the best, she knew what she needed to know about her enemy and her allies. She could read war like a book and so that explains her suspecting Marscal and betraying him. She has the best scope of the strategists in Suikoden.

Shu was a more colder/blunter version of Mathiu (well at the begining any way), Apple had talent but still has much to learn, Elenor was good but her feats were not as impressive as the others. Leon was good too and had that cold streak where he would do what he must to win a war, all soldiers being pauns etc.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I'd probably rank Lucretia as my second favorite tactician, behind Mathiu. Keep in mind that I've never had the opportunity to play Suikoden II, so I'm simply basing this assessment off the games I actually own. At the very least, Lady Merces is the easiest on the eyes concerning Suikoden strategists. All just my opinion, of course. ;)
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