World Crude Oil Prices.

[Schala-Kid]

yep, they're getting higher, and higher. yes, this is causing petrol prices to rise. Yes this is putting inflationary pressures upon all world economies, which for once are all experiencing growth at the same time. in that comes a dillema as well - to meet growth potential we need inputs and fuel is one of them!

this is a discussion about Crude oil prices, and it's flow on in costs to consumers in all forms, and where you believe something is being done "wrong", or there is just undeniable profit taking occuring. if you disagree with people who say that companies are overcharging us, if and how you think govt should intervene, and the politics of OPEC and the effects you think the "War on Terror" has had on supply and oil prices, and maybe even the cost-benefit analysis of our dependence on oil, and the effects of a decreasing oil supply - what is your choke price per litre/gallon? and worldwide distribution of oil, Developing nations have increasing energy needs, which means we've got to share it. what effects does this have on the political relations between developing nations who need increased energy needs and developed nations who won't want to sacrifice their consumption, yet still want to work towards reduced greenhouse emissions?

you can start by putting forth changes in the price of standard petrol in your locality, and if possible, your countries cash rate (which is not equal to the interest rate on a home loan).

i keep hearing about companies just price hiking to make a profit, yet i want people to explain how this is happening and every government is turning their eye away from the obvious.

does anyone here also know the proportion of tax they pay per gallon or litre of petrol, and what effect that has on the price and supply?

I'll be looking at this issue from an economic perspective, but feel free to beat a stick at it anywhich way suits you.

this topic deals with the impact on prices and society, rather than discussing alternatives and depleting reserves as this was raised in http://www.suikox.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6863&postdays=0&pos torder=asc&start=0

this could be somewhat educational for all involved, so maybe do a little research on the topic and participate. anything oil, anything prices, a bit of conspiracy and complaining can't hurt.

[Starslasher]

To me, this sudden hike in the prices of crude oil is just a reminder that these things won't last forever. We have been told for the last ten years that the quantity of oil we can drill out is finite, yet it won't be finished today.

But it not only affects car consumers, since oil is necessary on other areas of business. One that comes to mind is the plastic manufactuers. You need oil to creat plastic, and with the rise in oil prices, the expenses for the companies creating plastic goods will increase and therefore take a bite out of their profits.

Well, this has made me more conscious of the renewable resources, since that's what i'm feeling we'll be basing more of our energy sources on in the future.

And here, on May 20th, the price of petrol per litre here in perth is over 135 cents.
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Guardian of Greenhill & Devoted Protector of Oulan



Bork! Bork! Bork!

[Schala-Kid]

I filled up at 139 cents a litre.

of those 139 cent, 13.9 cents is GST 37.7 is a fuel excise. we are being taxed on a tax, and this is infuriating, as across the board the government is making money of a mathimatical order of operations!

for example (my car only holds 30 litres)
1 2
Station Price $0.87 $0.87
Excise $0.38 $0.38
GST $0.14 $0.09
Sell Price $1.39 $1.33

30 Litres $41.70 $40.02
GST Component $4.17 $2.61
Excise Component $11.31 $11.31
Total Tax on Petrol $15.48 $13.92

by applying the tax to the sale tax before excise tax is added, the price drops 6 cents, and reduces the GST component by reducing it by an amount they shouldn't even be earning.

i wanna talk about this tax thing, but am pretty tired at time be.

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There has been an increasing trend for all petrol companies to introduce "designer fuels". some are specifically designed for high performance import cars, which cannot handle our "standard" Australian petrol. There was a big consumer backlash when it was revealed ethanol was being used in "Standard" petrols which can cause damage to some cards. so the companies removed it and the price rose.

now that prices are incredibly high, some supplier's have reintroduced a properly labelled ethanol enhanced fuel.

The current market in Australia has seen a petrol/supermarket alliance, with 2 companies with the market dominance to be price setters. Caltex/Woolworths and Shell/Coles. shell introduced a "improved" standard fuel which i think involved a price increase, which was supposed to inprove fuel efficience, but it did not give me any extra distance coverage.

[Rune hunter]

Personally I find the increase in oil prices good..at least for the long run. With prices as high as these its makes people want to use different types of fuel.Ethonol for one thing. However I read somewhere that the rise in world oil prices is brought about becouse of tension in the middle east rather than a decrease in actual oil supply

[Starslasher]

One could relate the war in Iraq with the sudden rise of oil. And Iran threatens to rise their prices should they be pressured into giving up their nuclear enrichment program. Yet, oil isn't solely situated in the middle east. They can buy their oil from Venezuela or Indonesia or Brunei and other countries.
_________________
Guardian of Greenhill & Devoted Protector of Oulan



Bork! Bork! Bork!

[Arcana]

It has been said that the average U.S. Citizen will probably not consider alternate forms of transportation besides their car until gas prices hit 4.00 USD/gallon. I don't feel like doing the calculation, but I think gas in Canada is close to the $3.60 USD/gallon after the conversion.

Frankly, if people are willing to pay for gas even though it's so expensive, then the free market economy dictates that the gas companies should be able to charge what they want. It's not like there aren't alternatives to gas usage; one can use more efficient cars (hybrids come to mind), public transporation, or bicycle. As long as consumers are willing to absorb the costs of fuel, then fuel prices are going to keep going up in the long run. It's a limited resource and we know that it's going to dry up before long.

I think it's incredibly important that humans continue working on alternative fuel sources. In fact, there's the potential for a lot of money to be made if you can be the first company to put a serious effort into setting up infrastructure for a new fuel source like biodiesel or hydrogen. They're starting to build fuel-cell buses and there exist fuel-cell cars. Biodiesel has been considered as something that has a lot of promise because it can be blended with normal diesel and works in normal diesel engines. There are also people who modify their hybrid cars and add larger batteries (at huge cost) so that they literally require no gasoline to run; you simply drive using the battery and plug it into the wall and recharge it like you would a cell phone at the end of a day.

As for Canadian taxes on fuel, if anyone would reduce taxes, it would be the Conservative government, but as we can see, they have little interest in reducing the burden on Canadians. I don't see this as a bad thing if that money goes more into infrastructure, public transit, and alternative energy research (or, alternatively, income tax breaks).
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Woo, 2000 posts as of Tuesday, 2007 August 28.

[Schala-Kid]

The technologies for alternative sources for consumers are premature, costly, and not efficient when compared to current prices and costs incurred using a normal car.

Arcana, i totally agree with you on the Free Market for petrol. but i think because people are dependant upon car transportation for movement, there will be great outrage by people if prices become crazy causing some government intervention.

as for using alternatives - public transport/bikes... this renders our assets useless - what's the point of having a car if you can't afford to use it. this will especially hurt low income families who, in the first place, may have struggled to afford the car so they could drive to work which is some distance away and earn very little. with petrol prices going up, their disposable income decreases until it's just not worth driving to work. then what? they lose their job, and lose their benefits. i can easily see this occuring in America where there are limited unemployment benefits.

as for the bus/bike. i would sure as hell not ride a bike over 40 kilometers to university, 30 if i could take the freeway, and ride back, with my books and stuff. add to it, i can't ride a bike ( :cry: )
as for transport - it does cost a little less, especially since i'm a student and able to get half price tickets. yet to make my 9 o'clock classes, i need to be up by around 6:15 am, get ready, drive to the station by 7am, catch the train to the city. arrive at the city a 7:20. make the connecting bus at 7:40 (meaning waiting in the cold for 20 minutes) and getting to school around 8:30-45. waiting some more and then starting class.

for some days it's convenient - i start at 1 finish at 3, so i'd leave home by 11 and be back by 5, but the days i start early and finish late it's just not worth it.

[zincbrain]

Yeah well my country the oil that we have have found in my country Oman is little so as a remider not all middle eastern countries have a lot of oil and people say that Oman has a lot of oil but my people are too stupid to look for it. Personally i don't think Iran will do that or they will probably lose more money then they gain which already effect its own poverty problems to rise.
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"An eye for an eye only makes the whole world blind" Mohandis K Gandhi

[Zeik Tuvai]

The thing is, switching to something like ethanol is still going to be expensive. You need more ethanol to run your engine, so even if the price is halved for ethanol, you're still paying the same amount in the end. So, even though alnernative fuel is a good idea, it won't really help in the end.

As for the Free Market theory, hell yeah. It's a complete Seller's Market, which is really rare these days. Those people can pretty much charge whatever they want and expect to get it, and they will. People who say boycotting the crude oil industry will help fix it are just morons, because it won't. I mean, seriously... Demand for crude oil is so high, if we don't buy, someone else most definately will. Boycotting is just wasting your time, and I swear, the next person who comes to me and says "stop buying oil" will probably get smacked across the face. Unless they're a girl, then I'll laugh at them and walk away. But if it's a guy, I will smack'm with my fist.

I have an '84 chevy pickup that gets about 14-24 miles to the gallon, and a '41 chevy pickup that gets about 25-46 miles to the gallon. Both cost roughly $50-60 dollars to fill at $3.25 a gallon (that was the last time I checked the gas prices on my way to the public bus). I take public transportation because A) It's way cheaper, and B) You meet all kinds of people on the bus. They're VERY fascinating. I don't even bother trying to talk others into taking the bus, mainly because I don't feel like wasting my time. Their "independence" is too important to them.
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Those who stray from the path of justice,
Are those who have no courage...
But under the wing of a strong leader,
Cowardice cannot survive.

[Arcana]

The reason that alternative fuels will help in the end is because you'll have a choice of which fuel you want to run. If petroleum has to suddenly face ethanol and biodiesel blends as potential competitors to fuel, then it means that there are more sources for production. Costs might not go down, per say, but they can level out and prevent the petrol market from being a market made up of high prices only.

As we all know, petroleum is also a limited resource, and when we run out of it, we're going to be suffering for a while.

Finally, public transporation is something that you need to make work for you. You can't just live at home and expect it to work. You have to plan in advance for it to be effective. Sure, many people don't have a choice, but there are many ways to try to reduce your travel time, and I know many people who are willing to move to be closer to work or school.

However, the cost of owning a vehicle goes way beyond just the cost of the car and gas. Where I am, insurance is also pretty expensive.
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Woo, 2000 posts as of Tuesday, 2007 August 28.

[Zeik Tuvai]

[Vextor]

Concerning ethanol--yeah, it's gonna come to us big-time. Ethanol production is expanding at an ever-increasing rate, thanks to the success of fuels such as E-10 and E-85. Companies that produce ethanol are starting to return profits now, and once a fuel source starts turning profit (unlike other "green" energy sources), you'll start seeing market forces accelerate this baby like a scalded dog.

Ethanol can be made from a number of sources, but it mainly comes from corn. Now, the USA produces a heck of a lot of corn, mostly as livestock feed. The ethanol-making process won't really put a dent into the cattle-feed business though because livestock feed is juts a byproduct of ethanol production. It's a doubly-delicious deal for farmers. It'll also help get the US off of it's reliance on crude (although it's still necessary for various other industrial applications that ethanol can't replace) and at least make the automotive fuel market self sufficient within the USA.

Many states within the USA have also banned the gasoline additive methyl tert-butyl ether in the last few years, replacing it with ethanol. This has increased the demand for ethanol (which is why ethanol producers are making so much money, and dozens of new plants are being built now).
The surge in gasoline prices now may well be caused by laws requiring the use of ethanol (although there's no real data to back this claim).
However, new technology on ethanol manufacture is being developed due to a lot more research money being thrown into the pot. The chain reaction has basically started.

Many car manufacturers already have the technology to make engines that can run on E-85, thanks to Brazil. All that's needed is greater supply. Ethanol can use the same infrasturcture as gasoline distribution, which makes it a lot more attractive as an alternative fuel in the short term.

I'm not very optimistic about hydrogen fuel cells due to fuel cells requiring platinum (as a catalyst). Platinum is not only expensive but is also very rare. There's a very limited supply of platinum on this planet, and we can't make platinum. So, unless some alternative catalyst is found, I douby hydrogen fuel cells can go into mass production. It'll likely remain something that only exists for public transportation in major cities, and even then only as curiosities.

[Arcana]

Another problem with fuel cells, as they are currently designed, is that they're GIGANTIC, and also require an entirely new infrastructure (hydrogen gas stations). A fuel cell-run car requires the entire trunk for the tank. Most of the tank is metal designed to keep the high-pressure contents contained. We would also need places to fill up on hydrogen as well.

Hybrid engines and ethanol blends are much more economical and practical as they do not require radical changes in our gas stations.

Many home-brew engineers have modified their hybrid cars to run with larger batteries (they have huge lithium-ion batteries that cost tens of thousands of dollars). They can plug their car into the wall at night and charge it like you would a cell phone, and you can drive it all day without using gasoline. However, since electricity is still often generated by coal-fired plants, and isn't that cheap, I don't know if you actually save money and save the environment. In much of Canada, we use hydro power, but in Ontario, there are still many coal-fired power plants that pollute the air. The electricity grid in Southern Ontario is already stretched to the limits.
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Woo, 2000 posts as of Tuesday, 2007 August 28.

[Vextor]

[Zeik Tuvai]