Is Ambition a Virtue?

Starslasher · Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 12:51 am Post subject: Is Ambition a Virtue?

Hey guys. Remember "Gladiator"? Nice looking movie, right? Yeah, it was. There was one scene, when the Ceaser emperor declared to his son that Maximus is heir to the throne and not him, that Joaquin Phoenix's character told his father "Ambition is a virtue".

How is ambition a virute? When you hear about people being ambitious is is nearly always taken as a negative characteristic. Can someone define the word for me and explain, if they can, how is ambition a virtue?

Elc · Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 1:14 am Post subject:

Ambition
n.

a. An eager or strong desire to achieve something, such as fame or power.
b. The object or goal desired: Her ambition is the presidency.

Ambition in it's purest sense would indeed be a virtue, as without ambition one wouldn't really do anything. For example, in terms more relevant to this forum, my ambition is to buy Suikoden IV once it is released, so I save as much money as I can spare from my paycheque. Once Suikoden IV is released, I then have the funds I need to buy the game because I was motivated to save it instead of spending it on impulse purchases.

But once if the ambition grows out of control (genocide, for instance) it is a negative quality. To put it simply, from how I understand it, if the ambition is used in a positive manner (say, an end to homelessness is x-country) it is definitely a virtue.
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Starslasher · Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 4:24 am Post subject:

i see. i had a bit of a hunch it was like that.

In Samurai Shodown V, in Yoshitora Tokugawa's opening, it was said that his "ambition is strong", at that time supposedly meaning his determination for his goal.

Ambition is about excelling oneself towards a goal, then.

Strange that some villains have this characteristic, yet heroes who do are called "determined", not "ambitous".
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Schala-Kid · Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 5:32 am Post subject:

should ambition be redifined as personal ambition, and then just as ambition? in that personal ambitions would have little effect on external parties and environs, whereas ambition could have a negative effect on anyone related to it.

i keep thinking about a job. it would be ambitious to study and get that job, prepare, dress well - be motivated to do your best to acheive your personal goals.

but where ambition has negative connotations, it is when ambition, in the case of this job once again, would make you, "accidently" spill coffee on another person's white shirt, scare another person, slash their tyres, graffiti "die b****" on their house", set fire to their rose bush, attempt to seduce your married interviewer (male or female, doesn't matter), is when ambition has become a negative force.

in quite the same way, love can also be seen as this - an ambition to find and fall in love is pretty innocent - but subdjugation and jealousy, and any representation that comes from it (violence, gossip) from this come from that ambition to hold and keep love "by any means necessary" .

so i hope i've shown how ambition is a neutral force - depending on the bearer, it can be good or evil, affecting one person for the positive, and generally those arounding him positivly too, or negatively if used for evil. most "negative" ambitions will bring lots of people down.

i guess it's like the soul eater rune - depends who holds it and uses it wisely - but being human, we all are generally allowed the freedom of ambitions. i like laws though! there is such thing as "over ambitious"

i guess "ambitious" has gotten it's negative for people like Hitler, Stalin and Mussolini have been described as ambitious.

determined seems to imply some sense of reason, purpose and judgement of what is possible. ambitious seems to suggest that the goal is to far out of reach, or just a little out of grasp. but that would mean "over ambitious" is redundant, if ambitious already implies aiming too high. in that case, ambitious might be slightly unacheivable due to optimistic speculations and estimations of what is indeed acheivable.

Decado · Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 6:19 am Post subject:

Without ambition then there would be no wars.

Without ambition there would never be a cure for cancer.

What is being pointed out in the posts above is that ambition is a word to describe a human's determination to achieve something they desire. Whether it is 'good' or 'evil' is not relevant to this issue as that would depend upon the individual person and what they wish to achieve.

The only way you could answer this question is to look at each person and ask yourself if they are good or evil? (and that is a never ending question)
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Glen Cott · Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 2:03 pm Post subject:

I wouldn't say that ambition is a virtue.

I think this because a virtue is something which is considered morally good and maybe even righteous.
Ambition can be a force of good or evil depending on the person.
Therefore, as Schala-Kid said, it is a neutral force and therefore not a virtue.

But then again it can be a virtue.

....I'm confused.

kuwaizair · Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 6:17 pm Post subject:

who knows, somtimes I feel a total lack of it, the world is blah, so am I.
somtimes I feel like doing so many things, either I won't, don't, or cannot, then the flame of ambition dies.
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Starslasher · Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2004 2:08 am Post subject:

hmm..

you all raised some very good points. I think of myself as unambitious. I do want to do good in college and martial arts, but i at times am not so driven to it everyday. perhaps i should be more "determined" in my studies and health.

but can you guys give me an example of where an ambitious person have made significant virtuous changes in the world, unlike Hitler, mussolini and all?

....well, one may come in mind. There was a president of Turkey, named Attaturk. he was considred a hero, for creating a modern Turkey. He turned it from a backwater country, ruled by the Ulemas and all, into a country similar to the European countries at that time. But he was making some changes that some of his people were not yet ready to accept. Was he rash in his ambitions in doing so?
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Glen Cott · Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2004 8:30 am Post subject:

I would say that a lot of the medical and technological advances throughout history would have been discoved by ambitious people, but that's just a guess, I don't have any specific examples.

Snowe Vingerhut · Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:27 pm Post subject:

I think Schala-kid had a good point about ambition being not either good or evil.

Ambition is a tool, and a tool can be used in many different ways.

An analogy using a knife:
A knife is a knife, not good or bad, just is.

But if you stab someone with a knife, it puts it in a bad light as a weapon.

But if you cut up vegetables with a knife, it then becomes seen as a useful tool, and a good thing.

Ambition is just the drive to accomplish a goal(at least that's how I see it).
It is the goal that is either bad or good.

I think also that what is considered good or bad is in the eye of the beyolder...but that is a topic for another time...

Elc · Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2004 2:05 pm Post subject:

To use ambition in a practical sense for me, my ambition is to advance in the company I work at (at least while I work there) so I strive to do the best possible job in the section I'm in, which in turn assists in raising the efficiency.

We need ambition in order to really do anything or succeed at what we do. In moderation, ambition is a good thing but the same can be said about almost everything.
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"You make me smash the clock and feel, I'd rather die behind the wheel.
Time was never on my side, So on I wait my whole lifetime."

kuwaizair · Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2004 9:45 pm Post subject:

Snowe Vingerhut · Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 1:08 am Post subject:

Starslasher · Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 3:13 am Post subject:

I was just thinking about Dymasty Warriors. About Cao Cao, and about how all his quotes talk about his ambitions. Do you guys think that he would have been a good ruler if he did win the war against SHU and WU and conquered China?
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Blaze Silven · Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2004 9:01 pm Post subject:

:idea: ambition in its own definition means a desire for fame, power,e.t.c.,e.t.c. but, since people have been watching to many movies that it can''t also mean an ambition to get up off your lazy butt and work(no offense).
In ambition itself is a problem much like terrorism is a problem. since it is an an acting emotion, it never really can be changed to a positve meaning, even if more people realize that it has a more positive definition than a negative one, and that people still don't really care to change it, no matter the effects it will have on our future childeren.

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