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Camus the Noble
Les Renés
Joined: 24 Sep 2005
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Location: Vinay Del Zexay
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 Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Rune hunter wrote: |
| You simply said it was not written down. |
Please read my posts. I said that it definitely was written down. As for the Shun Min argument, I've said all I have to say after this post. For the last few posts, I've simply been repeating myself. The fact is, because the VAST majority of the story arc takes place off sceen, we don't know the details. I stand by my belief that the premise of Shun Min's death is ridiculous, but by this point, I see no way in which either of us can say anything more relevant.
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| Why exactly must I prove the sun rune wanted Arshtat to flee and the blue moon rune wanted Sierra to spare Rean life? |
Because you're arguing that they overcame the will of the True Runes! If they overcame the will of the True Runes, then you have to prove that the will of the True Runes was contrary to what they actually did!
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| If I proved that I would only be proving that both of them did not have free will and that the true runes were only manipulating them. And i am clearly trying to prove otherwise. |
Um. No. Just because the True Rune wanted something to happen doesn't mean that that happened, at least according to your argument. Read your sentence again. It basically amounts to an admission that I'm right.
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| Unfortunately for the RoP it MUST ALWAYS be borne on the left hand it could not simply move to the head |
You can't prove that. There is no evident logical reason why it must always be borne on the left hand. And I'm not willing to recognize something as fact on the basis of "just because."
Also, please note that in this case, the burden of proof is on you, the one making an assertion. In this case, the assertion is that the Rune of Punishment "MUST ALWAYS" be on the left hand.
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| Why should the rune suddenly move to Cray when the rune was not finish with killing Lazlo and obtaining his memories? |
Where did I ever assert that the rune wanted to move to Cray from Lazlo? I don't recall ever making that point.
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| The turning to dust is part of the curse. |
You're the one with flawed logic. You're assuming that just because what we have observed follows a same pattern, that pattern must be universally true. That's not the problem. The problem arises when your argument fails to provide an explanation for why the pattern must be universally true. Your argument is based, then, on givens such as "it's part of the curse," "it's always on the left hand" -- assumptions that there is no logical backing to.
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| That is the point it is only one persons will channeling all that energy. It was only Riou himself who wanted to save Jowy he just used the strength of the 108 to do it. None of the 108(with the possible exeption of Nanami and shu) knew about Jowy condition and its even possible they did not care what would happen to him. How can you argue that it was the 108 will to save Jowy? It was only there strength that Riou used to save Jowy. It was not there collective will. |
You know, I think we actually agree on this point; we just define "will" differently. I define "will," in the context of this discussion, as "the ability of the mind to influence." You seem to define it as "what the mind wishes to happen."
But the fact is that you have argued that the power of one person can overturn the will of a True Rune. When I asked you explicitly if you believed that, you answered in the affirmative. Here, however, you admit that that one person needs more than his power alone.
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| Once again the rune of punishment is different. Without Lazlo it wanted to go on a murdering rampage. Leknaat even said that this was its will. I'm certain it did not want to go dormant. If Lazlo die at fort El Eal the rune would certainly move to a new host. Otherwise Leknaat was wrong in her prediction. But that seems unlikely. Its the norm for the rune of punishment to move to the closes possible host when its bearer dies. |
I'm afraid that you can't possibly know any of this. What makes the Rune of Punishment different?
And here's the thing: the Rune of Punishment does not go on murdering rampages. Its nature is to consume the soul of its bearer -- to "punish" the bearer for using its power. It does not feed off the souls of those its bearer kills.
You seem to assume that everything Leknaat says is correct. You forget that she is human too, no matter how powerful. Not to mention that Suikoden IV was far earlier by comparison in her career as Keeper of Balance.
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| There is a flaw in that. If the rune wanted to save Lazlo it would simply just not hit him with its energy. Why does it need the woman help? |
You misunderstand. The rune isn't using the woman's "help." The woman is a part of it, assuming she is the queen of Obel. That's like saying that I need my arm's help to type. I use my arm to type, but it's not an outside influence. The rune did "simply just not hit him with its energy." It achieved that by blocking the burst with the woman's spirit.
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| That is also simple to answer. If the 108 did not save him it could possible be the queen who saves him. |
The queen's spirit is part of the rune. It has been absorbed and consumed by the Rune of Punishment. If she has such sway over it as to stop it from taking life, then why are the Stars of Destiny necessary to force it into the "forgiveness" phase?
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| And that is the point. While it is YOU who believe that a cooking cult its too implausible to exist in the suikoden world it does exist in it along with all the other implausible things in that world. |
Wrong. Vampires, kobolds, elves, True Runes, etc. ARE NOT implausible in the Suikoden world. They are as natural as humans. However, I do not think that it is at all a stretch to say that something that is not CLEARLY (take note that this is different from "clearly not") supernatural would not be revered by a "cult" (I'm taking this word to have religious connotations) in a world where the existing supernature is so obvious.
I seem to recall you using the argument that people have venerated relics and whatnot in our world, and can therefore do so in the Suikoden world. But that makes no sense, because in the Suikoden world it is made very clear what the supernature of the universe is. A cult worshipping a recipe is NOT implausible in our world, but it is the Suikoden world, for the same reasons that vampires are implausible in ours but not in the Suikoden world.
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| It may be overstated but you cannot prove that it is being overstated. |
Of course I can't. That's why I used the word "suspicion" in describing that theory. But the burden of proof doesn't fall to me. You were trying to validate Shun Min's death by asserting that the recipe had mystical powers. You made the assertion; you have to prove it.
Think about this: In the end, Hai Yo says that fighting over a recipe is silly, and Jinkai agrees. Now, if they were fighting over a True Rune, or a Sindar relic, or something of actual mystic importance, do you think they'd feel the same way? Of course not. They realize that what they've been doing all along was silly.
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| And Godwin knew Jeane was a great rune mistress. Why is it such a stretch ferid did not also know this? Unless of couse Ferid and Arshtat had such crappy intelligence gathering they could not figure out there was a powerful rune mistress that could have help them. |
Well, Godwin was the one trying to overthrow the government. He had Nether Gate behind him. I think it's safe to say that he probably did extremely extensive research, and had the capacity to do so. Besides, this is irrelevant.
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| It relevant because Jeane might have help Arshtat overcome the runes power. |
But according to your "one mere human can overcome the rune" thesis, all Arshtat needed to do was gather her willpower and subjugate the Sun Rune.
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| Its not like he will waltz over to Riou and demand a duel if he did that im sure the people near Riou would lynch Jowy. |
First, there are these things called disguises. Jowy could have used one. Second, Riou wouldn't have let the crowd kill Jowy. Third, Jowy wanted to die anyway.
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| How exactly did you prove that it wanted to leave Cray? |
I didn't, nor did I claim to. I was referencing your statement that I couldn't even argue the point.
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| Btw do not resort to name-calling. You do not call someone "juvenile" when you're debating a topic |
Your paragraph consisted of two "you can't do this" statements. It contained no logical argument. It was juvenile, and I called a spade a spade.
In closing, I want you to look back on the previous posts. Your thesis was that the will of one mortal could offset the will of one True Rune, as seen below:
| Camus the Noble wrote: |
| So you believe, then, that the will of one person can be stronger than that of one of the eternal True Runes that have existed from the beginning of the world? |
| Rune hunter wrote: |
| Yes i do believe one human can go against the true runes who have existed since the begining of time. And there are many character in the suikoden world who has this same believe like Hugo,Chris,Geddoe and the flame champion. |
Keep in mind that my question was asking whether you believed that one person , alone, could deny a True Rune the fulfillment of its goal. Then ponder that more recently you have conceded that it was not Riou's power alone that sent the Rune of Beginning's plans awry, and that you have suggested that Arshtat, with outside help, could have overcome the rune, implicitly giving up the assertion that she could have done so alone.
Now, I repeat my question, this time more clearly: Do you believe that ONE mortal can muster the willpower and force of character to thwart the plans of a True Rune?
If the answer is still yes, I posit these challenges:
1) Did the Blue Moon Rune want Sierra to spare Rean? If so, why? If not, how is Sierra's treatment of Rean an example of a person striving against fate?
2) Did the Sun Rune want Arshtat to leave the Sun Palace? If so, why? If not, how is Arshtat's decision to stay an example of a person striving against fate?
3) Why can the Rune of Punishment only exist on a left hand?
If you cannot provide satisfactory explanations to the above, please quit using them as examples of persons striving against fate. If you cannot, but persist in believing your thesis, then our discussion has ceased being productive.
With regards to the question of Lazlo's death, I posit this question: Why did the gamemakers include the scene of his reawakening ONLY in the Stars of Destiny ending?
If Lazlo did not die, then that opens the door to theories that Gremio came back without the Stars of Destiny, that Riou and Jowy were reconciled without the Stars of Destiny, etc.
As for how to quote, use the following:
<quote>Insert text here</quote>
To mention the author by name:
<quote="Camus the Noble">Insert text here</quote>
Also, take note that you DO NOT use the greater than or less than signs. You use BRACKETS. The reason I used the greater than/less than signs was because the brackets would have been recognized as actual quotes by the system, and would have been denoted in quote form, not allowing you to see the command. In essence: USE BRACKETS. |
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Onix
Joined: 15 May 2006
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| Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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Hey, sorry for being a little off topic but,
Are Prince and Lyon....lovers?????????
(SPOILER)
You know the last part when they beat the Sun Rune thingy, they hold hands and push back the Sun Runes power. and Lyon collapeses and dies? It would be tragic for the Prince if he didn't allot of SoDs right? I havn't tried that yet but it would be a tragic "love" story for him.
If I said something off topic, sorry... :off topic: :)
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"The ferryman asks a high price." Auron (FFX)
"It shall be engraved upon your very soul!" Hrist Valkyrie (VP2) |
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Rainrir
Landsknecht
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| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 2:37 am Post subject: |
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Er? Wow I missed the big argument. I think camus took all the words from me! Damn You, Camus! I needed the word count! I need soldiers! :cry: But i think you got Rune Hunter beat...I really wanna see what he is gonna say now....
To Onix:
Yes...It is semi-strongly hinted in the game that Lyon and the Prince both felt something to each other. Of coures, technically their story is not tragic...because so long as the Prince got the 108 stars of destiny..Lyon lives! The Prince WINS! And we all know that the Suikodens always go with the "108 stars" ending. |
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Rune hunter
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| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 7:32 am Post subject: |
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First why do you keep saying it was "definitely written down." You call me juvenile when you yourself are saying its "definitely written down" without any logical argument what so ever. And that considering the fact both me and Masa have stated a logical argument that can explain why "it was not written down." However I do agree I wont be able to convince you
I wont try to prove that they were going against the will of the true runes becouse it would be foolish of me to try. However I can prove that both Sierra and Arhstat both choose what to do. And that there were other physical alternative to what they choose(running away/not killing Rean). And I can also say that if they choose differently things could have turn for the better or for the worse, possibly changing the destiny of those around them. Now you argument is that they could not choose it becouse both of them have too high a moral to even think or choose it. Now that I think about it more closely I find your argument abit silly. It is like saying "Riou could not have run away from Tinto becouse he's the hero, he's a good guy, he would not allow ridley to die or abandon the people who support him." Fact remains running away from tinto was a viable option for Riou just as running away/not killing rean is a viable option. And if he had chosen to run away he would change how the story and the destiny of people around him(even though the change he does is very slight) would unfold. Riou changes how destiny unfold in this senario even though he was bearing the bright shield rune. If he can do it why cant arshtat and Sierra?
This is what's written in Suikosource true rune page(http://www.suikosource.com/history/truerunes/index.php) about the rune of punishment: "A True Rune that represents atonement and forgiveness and is ALWAYS borne on the left hand of its host; this rune is a parasite that feeds off its host with fatal consequences: the rune has tremendous offensive capabilities; however, using them drains the bearer's life force, eventually to the extent that he or she turns to ASH and their memories are locked away in the Rune."
That come from suikosource and they are credible sources of info when it comes to suikoden. Unless you can prove there info is wrong I can safely assume it is correct. In fact that information probable comes from Konami themselves.
I think you missed my point when I talk about the non 108 SOD ending. What occours in that scenario is not official I know that but it is a "what if" senario. Riou can simple not meet with Jowy that is shown in the game as a likely scenario(not the best thing that could happen but still it could have happened). Had Riou done so it would have changed how destiny for both Jowy and Riou would have unfolded.
This is exactly what Leknaat said “ If you are ever to let it go, the rune will wonder the world, harvesting live again.” If going around the world “harvesting lives” should not be termed as a murdering rampage then what should I call it?
Leknaat is human. But she’s no ordinary human she is the keeper of the runes. She is an expert on the true rune. She also has the ability to read the will of the true runes. And even during suikoden 4 she was already the keeper of the runes. (she said so herself!) Your confusing her job as keeper of the runes and her job as Astrological seer for Scarlet Moon empire. There is no logical reason to believe what she said was false and no reason to believe she was lying at the time.
About the black dragon clan first of all there chefs!!! Its not such a stretch to believe they would worship a recipe which is a pinnacle of success for any chef in the suikoden world. Besides according to your reason people should be worshiping the the supernatural forces of the suikoden world(in other words the true rune) and yet no one worships the true runes in the suikoden world.(with the possible exception of Harmonia)
Also not many people actual know about true runes. Even the experts on true runes can only base what they now on legends. And the majority of people have little to no knowledge about true runes.
On an interesting side note there happens to be "vampires" in our world. Not the same kind of vampires as the suikoden world but vampires none the less. There are many wierd,nearly unbelievable and amazing things in our world and in the suikoden world. Nothing is too unbelievable to not exist.
I did not assert that the recipe had mystical power what I asserted was that people thought it had mystical powers. They believed it had such an ability thus there reasoning to obtain it and to kill shun min.
They did find fighting over a recipe silly. But genkaku and Hun Cunningham thought fighting a war over territory was silly. Fighting in general is silly irregardless of the reason. Especial when that fighting results in the dead of someone who is important to you. Wouldn’t you think a war is silly if someone important to you dies?
Here are the answers to you questions:
1.)I don’t know if the blue moon rune wanted to save Rean. But I do know if Sierra did not kill Rean destiny might have been altering for the better or for the worse. Even with the blue moon runes influence and even with a moral dilemma there were still choices for Sierra
2.) The same answer goes for Arshtat. She had the choice to do what she wanted and she chose to stay. She could have run away if she wanted to. She just chose to stay.
3.) Read my post earlier and prove to me that is false information. Although I do not know why it can only be borne on the left hand.
4.) The reason could be because its always traditional to include an extra scene when you collect 108 stars. Sort of a reward to obtaining the complete stars of destiny.
Think of Lazlo death like Nanami “death”. Although you could infer Lazlo died you from scenes in game could also infer that Nanami died from what people said and this would be what you would believe until you find out it was nothing but a ruse.
If you really do not want to believe that the premise of Shun min death is not laughable or that a single person can fight against the true rune then nothing I say or do will make a difference.
Sorry i didn't use qoutes I still make mistakes when I qoute im still learning how to qoute |
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Camus the Noble
Les Renés
Joined: 24 Sep 2005
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| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Rune hunter wrote: |
| First why do you keep saying it was "definitely written down." You call me juvenile when you yourself are saying its "definitely written down" without any logical argument what so ever. |
Rune hunter, are you just arguing for the sake of argument now? If so, you're not doing so very well. I suppose I must repeat myself. Here's my "logical argument" that you deny the existence of:
1) GIVEN: A recipe is "written down" if it is inscribed on a piece of paper.
2) GIVEN: Hai Yo tore up a piece of paper on which the Blue Moon Bird recipe was inscribed.
3) THEREFORE: The Blue Moon Bird recipe was inscribed on a piece of paper.
4) THEREFORE: The Blue Moon Bird recipe was written down.
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| And I can also say that if they choose differently things could have turn for the better or for the worse, possibly changing the destiny of those around them. |
You misunderstand the nature of fate/destiny in the Suikoden world. In Suikoden III, it is made very clear that the Twenty-Seven True Runes are the executors of fate in the Suikoden world. Therefore, Sierra and Arshtat could not have been changing destiny unless what they were doing ran contrary to the plans of the True Runes. "Destiny" is defined as "what the True Runes want to happen": nothing more or less.
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| That come from suikosource and they are credible sources of info when it comes to suikoden. Unless you can prove there info is wrong I can safely assume it is correct. |
I agree that Suikosource is a credible source. But the fact is that the scope of the Rune of Punishment is far beyond what we are shown in the games. It is an eternal entity. Just because we only see it follow one pattern does not mean that that is the only pattern it knows.
Here's your argument:
1) GIVEN: All observed bearers of the Rune of Punishment bear the rune on their left hand.
2) THEREFORE: The Rune of Punishment is always borne on the left hand.
The same can be applied to the argument from ash. But let's take this out of Suikoden context, and apply it to another argument:
1) GIVEN: All observed sapient life is on the planet Earth.
2) THEREFORE: There is no sapient life anywhere but Earth.
Unless we have knowledge of every speck of existence, we cannot conclusively arrive at the assertion. The same applies to your Rune of Punishment arguments. And of course, we can't examine every instance of the Rune of Punishment's activity, as that activity is likely to be infinite.
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| I think you missed my point when I talk about the non 108 SOD ending. What occours in that scenario is not official I know that but it is a "what if" senario. Riou can simple not meet with Jowy that is shown in the game as a likely scenario(not the best thing that could happen but still it could have happened). Had Riou done so it would have changed how destiny for both Jowy and Riou would have unfolded. |
I think YOU missed MY point. It's possible that in the official Suikoden continuity, Riou had no choice. And of course, the fact that the scenario is not official, as you admit, completely discounts all relevance it has to our discussion. If it's not official, it didn't happen, has never happened, and will never happen, nor has it happened in any alternate Suikoden universes as far as we know. IT MATTERS NOTHING.
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| If going around the world "harvesting lives" should not be termed as a murdering rampage then what should I call it? |
First, let me state a simple fact: the Rune of Punishment ONLY consumes the souls of its BEARERS, as opposed to the Rune of Life and Death, which consumes the souls of its VICTIMS.
Now, there are two possibilities. The first is that Leknaat is wrong, which occurs if Leknaat means to express the idea that the Rune of Punishment is going to harvest lives on a massive scale. The second possibility is that your term "rampage" is misguided. At the VERY most, the Rune of Punishment will take a soul every one to two years (yes, it goes a lot faster than that during the Kooluk Southern Expansion, but remember that there was a war going on then, and in one of the most unstable regions of the world; under less ideal conditions, the rate would be much slower). Hardly a rampage.
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| And even during suikoden 4 she was already the keeper of the runes. (she said so herself!) Your confusing her job as keeper of the runes and her job as Astrological seer for Scarlet Moon empire. |
No, I'm not. I think it's safe to infer that she attained the position as Keeper of Balance and Guardian of the True Runes after the destruction of the Gate Rune Village. Therefore, we can assume that she had held her position by Suikoden IV for a shorter amount of time than she had in all the other Suikodens, seeing as Suikoden IV was the first. It's simple logic, really.
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| About the black dragon clan first of all there chefs!!! Its not such a stretch to believe they would worship a recipe which is a pinnacle of success for any chef in the suikoden world. |
Eh? Chefs strive to make good food even in our world, but very few people, if any at all, worship recipes. Even in a world where there is no supernature apparant (and we've come up with thousands of theoretical supernatures), no one worships recipes. The fact that the excruciatingly evident supernature of the Suikoden world does not include recipes makes it even less likely that recipe-worship would occur in the Suikoden world.
Think of it this way. If, tomorrow, Jesus reappeared on Earth, revealed his nature in undeniable terms to the entire world, and that revelation affirmed that he was the son of God, you'd not find many people denying that Christianity was the correct religion (If you prefer, the argument can be tailored to fit Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, the Greek Pantheon, etc.). Similarly, the idea of residents of the Suikoden world worshipping something that is not clearly supernatural is extremely far-fetched.
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| Besides according to your reason people should be worshiping the the supernatural forces of the suikoden world(in other words the true rune) and yet no one worships the true runes in the suikoden world.(with the possible exception of Harmonia) |
Yes, with the possible exception of Harmonia. And Nagarea. And Zelant. New Armes and the Gaien Dukedom, too. And perhaps the entire western continent. And maybe there are even more continents, the people of whom worship the True Runes!
My point is that your assertion was incredibly narrow-minded.
But that's irrelevant. You make the mistake of assuming that the True Runes are the only supernatural forces in existence. Not so. What about the Zexen goddess Sadie? The Grassland's spirits? Then there's that church in Tinto. And in our world of mutually exclusive religions, this may be hard to grasp, but simply acknowledging the existence of a supernatural force does not entail worship of it. All people in Suikoden acknowledge the existence of the supernature that clearly exists. It's common sense to do so. I dare you to postulate that there may be a mentally sound and informed Suikoden character who does not acknowledge the existence of the True Runes, the Million Worlds, the Grassland spirits, etc.
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| On an interesting side note there happens to be "vampires" in our world. |
Elaborate. If you mean the undead creatures who drink blood and can turn into bats, you're utterly wrong here.
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| Nothing is too unbelievable to not exist. |
Oh? I find undead creatures who drink blood and can turn into bats to be too unbelievable to exist. Of course, you're making the mistake here of assuming that a belief in something is tied into its existence. Very few people today believe in, say, Ba'al. But that doesn't mean he doesn't exist.
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| Wouldn't you think a war is silly if someone important to you dies? |
No. I would think a war was silly if it was silly. In all honesty, I have something close to contempt for people who change their ideals about a war just because someone close to them dies, because they are implicitly assuming that the life of their loved one is more important than the life of everyone else who died in the same war. I mean, the death of a loved one in a war can help a person realize their beliefs about the war, but it shouldn't result in a whole new belief system.
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| But I do know if Sierra did not kill Rean destiny might have been altering for the better or for the worse. |
See my argument about the definition of destiny above.
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| Even with the blue moon runes influence |
And I'm asking you to prove that the Blue Moon Rune did in fact influence Sierra's decision. There are three possibilities:
1) The Blue Moon Rune wanted Sierra to kill Rean.
2) The Blue Moon Rune wanted Sierra to spare Rean.
3) The Blue Moon Rune didn't care.
If (1) is true, that helps my argument. If (3) is true, the point is moot. The only way in which you can continue to argue this point is if (2) is true; otherwise, Sierra did not affect destiny in any way, except maybe to further the will of the True Runes. The same point holds true for Arshtat and the Sun Rune.
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| prove to me that is false information. |
Pshaw. As if the burden of proof is on me.
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| Although I do not know why it can only be borne on the left hand. |
I asked for a satisfactory explanation. Given the absence of ANY explanation, even an unsatisfactory one, I submit you cannot reasonably continue to argue the matter of Cray's hand.
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| 4.) The reason could be because its always traditional to include an extra scene when you collect 108 stars. Sort of a reward to obtaining the complete stars of destiny. |
Then why not include an extra scene with actual relevance?
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| Think of Lazlo death like Nanami "death". Although you could infer Lazlo died you from scenes in game could also infer that Nanami died from what people said and this would be what you would believe until you find out it was nothing but a ruse. |
Okay, I'll gladly think of Lazlo's death like Nanami's death. Both happen unless you collect all One Hundred and Eight Stars of Destiny.
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| If you really do not want to believe that the premise of Shun min death is not laughable or that a single person can fight against the true rune then nothing I say or do will make a difference. |
I get this argument a lot when I debate. It appears to me to be nothing more than a fallback for someone who cannot prove their point and is trying desperately to salvage credibility. Your conclusion is false. If you managed to put together logically sound and legitimately coherent arguments, I would be inclined to accept your thesis. But so far you have not managed that, and I am therefore not so inclined. |
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Rune hunter
Joined: 02 May 2006
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| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 2:19 am Post subject: |
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Rune hunter, are you just arguing for the sake of argument now? If so, you're not doing so very well.
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No im not arguing for the sake of arguing. Im arguing with sound logic. Stop saying it "was written down" when we have given you a good logical argument the proves it may not have been written down. Masa said they may not have been written down becouse they wanted to keep it a secret. If I had a treasure map I not gonna make multiple copies of it becouse if i did that it makes its more likely someone will get to the treasure before me. I'd just keep the one copy safely hidden. Now make a good logical argument against this.
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"Destiny" is defined as "what the True Runes want to happen": nothing more or less.
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Who defined destiny as what true runes want to happen? It your definition. None of the characters in game defined it as such
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Unless we have knowledge of every speck of existence, we cannot conclusively arrive at the assertion.
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The scope of the rune of punishment is beyond the game but you have not done anything to disprove my argument. The burden of proof is now on you to prove that what I(and what suikosource)say is false.
You dont need every speck of evidence to prove something. That would be folly. It would be like saying "not all the stars are balls of burning gas becouse we have not see all the stars" As it so happens most people do make general assertions even without every speck of evidence. Statistics for one thing(my brain still hurts from learning statistics) uses the information available and make a general assertion over something. Although statistics can never prove anything 100% it near perfect around 95%. The main point of this is even without all the evidences you make theories and assumptions that are considered true until proven false. All the laws of science are consider true until someone can prove otherwise.
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If it's not official, it didn't happen, has never happened, and will never happen, nor has it happened in any alternate Suikoden universes as far as we know. IT MATTERS NOTHING.
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Its not irelevant becouse this show Riou had choices in the matter and depending on those choices the outcome changes. Even in the official continuity it is up to Riou to choose what happens. That is the point. Unless you can prove Riou did not have any choice.
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The second possibility is that your term "rampage" is misguided.
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As for the rune of punishment lets get the meaning of the words murdering and rampage. "Murdering" mean killing and "rampage" means a course violent,frezied action or "rampage" means to move about wildly or violently. If going around killing people in a wild and violent manner should not be called murdering rampage what else should we term it? But in the ends were only arguing based on semantics.
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No, I'm not. I think it's safe to infer that she attained the position as Keeper of Balance and Guardian of the True Runes after the destruction of the Gate Rune Village. Therefore, we can assume that she had held her position by Suikoden IV for a shorter amount of time than she had in all the other Suikodens, seeing as Suikoden IV was the first. It's simple logic, really.
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Sorry I miss understood what you said. Anyways just becouse Leknaat is 150years younger does not make her any less wiser. Besides leknaat was already 235+years old in suikoden 4 thats more than enough time to learn alot about true runes. And that besided the fact she read the will of the true rune!
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no one worships recipes.
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And no one should worship a carpenter who died 2000 years ago. That would be silly wouldn't you say? Fact of the matter is people do worship some of the most outlandish things.
The fact of the matter is these were fanatical chefs.(I feel were going around in circles) That recipe was something they coveted. As stated before they have every reason to obtain it even though murderous means.
That whole Jesus analogy is wrong. First of all Jesus has already stated in undeniable terms and revieled to the entire world he is the son of god and yet many still dont believe him. And if the bible is to be believe even when he reveals himself again to the world there will still be many who wont believe him.
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I dare you to postulate that there may be a mentally sound and informed Suikoden character who does not acknowledge the existence of the True Runes, the Million Worlds, the Grassland spirits, etc.
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The Zexens dont believe in the grassland spirits.Even chris(a mentally sound and infromed suikoden character) did not believe that whole ritual of Alma Kinan. She dispised the who "sacrifice someones life for blessing" and yet that did not make the whole Alma Kinan ritual wrong. How horrible of Alma Kinan to kill someone for "blessing". They dont even have any proof that when they killed her the village actual recieved a blessing! They are just as horrible as the people who killed shun min for a recipe that had no proof the recipe even had any "mystical powers" what so ever and who only believes it did!!!(if you didn't get it was an analogy)
So now your misqouting me are you now. If you read carefully I said "On an interesting side note there happens to be "vampires" in our world. Not the same kind of vampires as the suikoden world but vampires none the less. " The general definition of vampires are people who dring blood. Not all vampires have to turn to a bat to be called a vampire. The general definition is that they suck blood :*laugh*:
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Oh? I find undead creatures who drink blood and can turn into bats to be too unbelievable to exist. Of course, you're making the mistake here of assuming that a belief in something is tied into its existence. Very few people today believe in, say, Ba'al. But that doesn't mean he doesn't exist.
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A fitting argument for me. You are the one who's making the mistake of assuming
a belief in something is tied into its existence. You dont believe in say, a group of fanatical chefs, but that does not mean it doesn't exist.
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No. I would think a war was silly if it was silly. In all honesty, I have something close to contempt for people who change their ideals about a war just because someone close to them dies, because they are implicitly assuming that the life of their loved one is more important than the life of everyone else who died in the same war. I mean, the death of a loved one in a war can help a person realize their beliefs about the war, but it shouldn't result in a whole new belief system.
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And i think a war is silly what ever the reasoning. A war for territory,a war for polical ideals, a war for the spreading of "freedom" bah its all silly. Every cent spend on war is a cent not spent on things for the needy and a drain on the resources of any nation. In the words of Dwight D. Eisenhower "I hate war as only a soldier who has lived it can, only as one who has seen its brutality, its futility, its stupidity." Personally I think the death of someone dear to anyone should open up there eyes to a war and show them how silly any war is but enough of that for now.
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If (1) is true, that helps my argument. If (3) is true, the point is moot. The only way in which you can continue to argue this point is if (2) is true; otherwise, Sierra did not affect destiny in any way, except maybe to further the will of the True Runes. The same point holds true for Arshtat and the Sun Rune.
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I really can't say what the rune wanted. Neither can you this regard. But that also makes it hard for you to prove that what occour is the "destiny" the true rune wanted. In the end this discussion is becoming nothing more than a battle of opinions. Prove to me that staying in the sun palace is what the true rune wanted and I will believe that the will of the true rune is unchangable.
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Pshaw. As if the burden of proof is on me.
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The burden of proof is now on you. You have to prove my information about the rune of punishment is false.
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I asked for a satisfactory explanation. Given the absence of ANY explanation, even an unsatisfactory one, I submit you cannot reasonably continue to argue the matter of Cray's hand.
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I dont know why exactly the rune can only be borne on the left hand. It could be becouse of its cursed nature. Who knows for certain. But I do know its official information(well as official as I can get without asking Konami themselves) Unless of course you can prove that information is false.
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Then why not include an extra scene with actual relevance?
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What could be more relevant a scene than to see Lazlo conclusively not die?
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Okay, I'll gladly think of Lazlo's death like Nanami's death. Both happen unless you collect all One Hundred and Eight Stars of Destiny.
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And yet even in the 108 star ending you will believe nanami is dead until the very end. Even though behind the scenes she's actual alive and well. Just as in lazlo case without the 108 stars even though you dont see Lazlo get up and wave does not mean he does not do so.
A fallback plan? Hardly. If you want i'll argue with you as much as you want but from what I see even the most logically sound and legitimately coherent arguments wont be enough to change the minds of someone stubborn. |
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Rainrir
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| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 2:39 am Post subject: |
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Rune Hunter said:
First why do you keep saying it was "definitely written down." You call me juvenile when you yourself are saying its "definitely written down" without any logical argument what so ever. And that considering the fact both me and Masa have stated a logical argument that can explain why "it was not written down." However I do agree I wont be able to convince you |
Ok let me get this straight, at first
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Camus the Noble said:
Well... no. You see, a recipe is something that can be reproduced, unlike money. When someone kills for money, it is certainly immoral, but at least there is a certain logical goal behind it. No such goal exists in this scenario. Jinkai could simply have written the recipe down again, or if he couldn't do so off the top of his head, he could have hunted Shun Min down and asked to be able to make a copy of it. |
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Rune Hunter THEN said:
There could be many reason why they could not write it down. For them maybe that recipe was sacred and could not be written down. Or they could have been in the process of writing it down before shun min stole it or it could have been in some weird or ancient language and they were just about to translate it who knows |
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Camus the Noble respond:
It was almost certainly written down. Hai Yo tore up a piece of paper on which the recipe was written! |
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Rune Hunter returned fire:
Sigh* did you even bother to read my post. What if they were in the process of writing down the recipe but were not able to finish becouse of shun min actions. It could be possible that they had only recently obtain that recipe and that is why they have not even begun to write it. There are a countless number of possibilities why they needed that recipe shun min stole. |
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Masa added:
So why wasn't it reproduced? They went to great lengths to recover it after it had been stolen. Clearly it was extremely important to them. It may not have been reproduced because Jinkai did not want anyone else to have its secrets. It was his alone. |
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Camus retorted:
You posited several possible explanations as to how the recipe might not be written down in a fully understandable form. I explored the flaw in the most basic one, that the recipe was not written down at all, and said little else on the matter. |
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Rune Hunter counters:
I based the observation because you did not respond why the other explanation was not valid. You simply said it was not written down. It could simple be that they just did not finish transcribing it. Or from what Masa said they may have deliberately not have written it down. |
Ok here is when the problem starts, somehow Rune Hunter gets the idea that Camus says it is NOT written down..when Camus NEVER said something like that. Camus was countering what Rune said about how the recipe is irreproducable, saying that the recipe was in written form and CAN be reproduced easily.
Anyway, enough of that. Whether the recipe is reproduced or not is a moot point and pretty much have no bearing in this arguement. So what if it can be replaced or it cannot be? The basic fact is that Jinkai have Shun Min killed over a RECIPE and that is what that is unreal!
It like killing someone over a uniquely-shaped but normal rock....it is definately unique and irreplacable but is it WORTH Killing someone over that piece of rock? It can be argued that the rock can be the most powerful thing on earth! A direct surprise hit by that rock can kill Hikusaak/Anyone Important!
But the thing is that we NEVER know the power of that recipe, and claims of its power are dubious at best. Camus touched on this before, I will restate it. The recipe might NOT be that powerful at all, it could be just EXTREMELY delicious for all we know and "Ultimate Happiness" could be just a metaphorical term. So arguing the worth of the recipe is pointless, we cannot prove what kind of Power it has. BUT ONE THING FOR SURE, is that it is not as powerful as the SUPERNATURAL True Runes.
Bottomline: Whether the recipe is reproducable or not is completely unrelated to the arguement. AND claims of its power is dubious.
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Rune Hunter says:
I wont try to prove that they were going against the will of the true runes becouse it would be foolish of me to try. However I can prove that both Sierra and Arhstat both choose what to do. And that there were other physical alternative to what they choose(running away/not killing Rean). And I can also say that if they choose differently things could have turn for the better or for the worse, possibly changing the destiny of those around them. Now you argument is that they could not choose it becouse both of them have too high a moral to even think or choose it. Now that I think about it more closely I find your argument abit silly. It is like saying "Riou could not have run away from Tinto becouse he's the hero, he's a good guy, he would not allow ridley to die or abandon the people who support him." Fact remains running away from tinto was a viable option for Riou just as running away/not killing rean is a viable option. And if he had chosen to run away he would change how the story and the destiny of people around him(even though the change he does is very slight) would unfold. Riou changes how destiny unfold in this senario even though he was bearing the bright shield rune. If he can do it why cant arshtat and Sierra? |
Camus is right in saying that these events never happened and are of little consequence in the overall story or theme of Suikoden. But I will go on further to hazard another guess, is that no matter what Arshtat and Sierra and Riou tries they cannot escape the fate of the True Runes. The WHOLE DAMN theme of Suikoden is that True Runes are DIRECTLY responsible for "fate" and "People" gathered together as the "108 SoDs" are the only way to break it. We never know what will happen if Sierra, Arshtat and Riou if they took the alternative and choose not to kill Rean for the Former and running away in the Latter.
But I warrant if Suikoden is to be consistant with it own theme, the Runes will find someway to catch up with them eventually with its curse. Riou will eventually be forced to confront Jowy and one must die, Arshtat will eventually lose control of the Rune even when she is in hiding or the Sun Rune evetually goes out of control, Rean eventually killed by the Blod Curse or continue killing people (and maybe Sierra herself) before Sierra can recover the Blue Moon Rune. Unless the 108 SoDs intervene, they are DOOMED to follow the "fate" the Runes have in mind.
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| This is what's written in Suikosource true rune page(http://www.suikosource.com/history/truerunes/index.php) about the rune of punishment: "A True Rune that represents atonement and forgiveness and is ALWAYS borne on the left hand of its host; this rune is a parasite that feeds off its host with fatal consequences: the rune has tremendous offensive capabilities; however, using them drains the bearer's life force, eventually to the extent that he or she turns to ASH and their memories are locked away in the Rune." |
I am interested as to where Suiksource got this infomation from...anyone from there? Is this written in auxillary material? Or is it merely inferred?
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| They did find fighting over a recipe silly. But genkaku and Hun Cunningham thought fighting a war over territory was silly. Fighting in general is silly irregardless of the reason. Especial when that fighting results in the dead of someone who is important to you. Wouldn't you think a war is silly if someone important to you dies? |
They found fighting for petty politics and fighting to expand terrorities is silly, as both started out fighting to PROTECT THE PEOPLE and ended up fighting for something that neither believed in. They NEVER lost their will to fight to protect their people though..if Genkaku is alive in the events of S2 I bet we would have fought along side Riou to protect the Jowstone people..like Han did for Highland in S2.
Edit: Argh! Rune hunter posted before I could...I will respond when there is at least one more post between mine and his. |
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Rune hunter
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| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 4:32 am Post subject: |
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Ok here is when the problem starts, somehow Rune Hunter gets the idea that Camus says it is NOT written down..when Camus NEVER said something like that. Camus was countering what Rune said about how the recipe is irreproducable, saying that the recipe was in written form and CAN be reproduced easily.
Anyway, enough of that. Whether the recipe is reproduced or not is a moot point and pretty much have no bearing in this arguement. So what if it can be replaced or it cannot be? The basic fact is that Jinkai have Shun Min killed over a RECIPE and that is what that is unreal!
It like killing someone over a uniquely-shaped but normal rock....it is definately unique and irreplacable but is it WORTH Killing someone over that piece of rock? It can be argued that the rock can be the most powerful thing on earth! A direct surprise hit by that rock can kill Hikusaak/Anyone Important!
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Ok on the first paragraph if you read your own qoute this what Camus said
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Quote:
Camus the Noble respond:
It was almost certainly written down. Hai Yo tore up a piece of paper on which the recipe was written!
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and then some post later he said
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Quote:
Camus retorted:
You posited several possible explanations as to how the recipe might not be written down in a fully understandable form. I explored the flaw in the most basic one, that the recipe was not written down at all, and said little else on the matter
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Where is the logic in this? You say the flaw was it was definately written down. Come on we have given you concrete reasoning why it could be possible it was not written down.
Killing over a recipe is as unreal as the plot of the true runes/the 108 stars of destiny. It is subjective to say killing over a recipe is unreal!
As for that last paragraph. People happen to kill for uniquely shaped rocks...There called dimonds/jewel etc. And people believe it worth killing for it.
My main argument is simple. People believed it had power!!! It does not matter if its true or not but people are willing to kill for there beliefs. Hence the reasoning to kill for shun min.
How hard they try they can never escape the curse of the true rune,eh. Tell that to the flame champion he himself was able to escape the curse of the true fire rune. And i may be so bold to say he did it without the the stars of destiny. It is basically your opinion that they cannot escape it. Prove to me now that none of them escaped the destiny set by the true rune. Give me proof that everything that has happened is the will of the true rune. If you cannot do that I see no other need to debate this.
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I am interested as to where Suiksource got this infomation from...anyone from there? Is this written in auxillary material? Or is it merely inferred?
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Ask them youself but i highly doubt it merely inferred. They usually have official sources for there info.
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They found fighting for petty politics and fighting to expand terrorities is silly, as both started out fighting to PROTECT THE PEOPLE and ended up fighting for something that neither believed in. They NEVER lost their will to fight to protect their people though..if Genkaku is alive in the events of S2 I bet we would have fought along side Riou to protect the Jowstone people..like Han did for Highland in S2.
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For one thing Han was ordered to attack Muse. I dont see how Han was "protecting the people" when Han starts a pre-emptive attack on Muse(under orders from Argres). He was fighting for territory not for the people. Even during truce duel there were still fight over territory. |
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Rainrir
Landsknecht
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| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 9:13 am Post subject: |
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This will never end..I swear....hoo boy....
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Where is the logic in this? You say the flaw was it was definately written down. Come on we have given you concrete reasoning why it could be possible it was not written down.
Killing over a recipe is as unreal as the plot of the true runes/the 108 stars of destiny. It is subjective to say killing over a recipe is unreal!
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But...but Haiyo tore up the PIECE of paper that was written down! What makes it not written down? IT IS written down...at least on the piece of paper/whatever that Hai Yo tore and that is probably the only copy in existance. Whatever the case the fact that it is written down means it can probably be reproduced rather easily. Anyone that memorised the contents of that paper can probably recreate the recipe.
This is irrelevant. We need no continue with if the recipe is written down or not...or it have a duplicate or not...or it is reproducable or not....it has nothing to do with whether the premise of Shun Min's death is ridiculous.
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As for that last paragraph. People happen to kill for uniquely shaped rocks...There called dimonds/jewel etc. And people believe it worth killing for it.
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Oh my..that is why i say its a uniquely shaped but NORMAL rock. If it is a jewel I will call it as such.
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My main argument is simple. People believed it had power!!! It does not matter if its true or not but people are willing to kill for there beliefs. Hence the reasoning to kill for shun min.
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It had power or not is not relevant? That they killed Shun Min because they BELIEVE it has power? A Recipe...Power? That's it....Shun Min's death have reached a new low. She was killed because the people who killed her believe a mere recipe had world changing power which they NEVER TESTED..and probably DON'T KNOW. Ouch...
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How hard they try they can never escape the curse of the true rune,eh. Tell that to the flame champion he himself was able to escape the curse of the true fire rune. And i may be so bold to say he did it without the the stars of destiny. It is basically your opinion that they cannot escape it. Prove to me now that none of them escaped the destiny set by the true rune. Give me proof that everything that has happened is the will of the true rune. If you cannot do that I see no other need to debate this
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Flame Champion never overcame the curse of the Rune. The fact that he lost control of the True Fire Rune in the "nuke" event that Lucretia saw as a child, proves that he merely succumb to its curse(which is to fill the world with fire...the other elemental runes also have that tendency to make the world in its image...hence Luc's world of stillness is what the wind rune desire.) at that time.
He eventually choose to abandon the rune, he did not defeat its curse but instead he died shortly after abandoing the rune. The FC only managed to avoid one of the fates the True Rune decreed...to be its bearer and continue to fight the Rune's will to fill the world with flames...the Rune knows FC will eventually succumb. His other fate is to stop bearing the rune and dies shortly thereafter. In either "fate" the flame champion is still under thrall of the True Fire Rune's influence..he never beat the rune..so to speak.
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Ask them youself but i highly doubt it merely inferred. They usually have official sources for there info.
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Remember the Georg incident? Not that I want to remind anyone or embarrass anyone... but sometimes this kind of mess up happens. However, until someone from Suikosource, or someone with knowledge of this issue comes along, we cannot make anything of the "fact" that the RoP is always on the "left" hand.
If it is inferred then it may/may not be true. If it isn't then I must know where is the source of that infomation.
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For one thing Han was ordered to attack Muse. I dont see how Han was "protecting the people" when Han starts a pre-emptive attack on Muse(under orders from Argres). He was fighting for territory not for the people. Even during truce duel there were still fight over territory.
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Han is a knight...he became a knight to protect his people. So did Genkaku. He also swore an oath to King Agares of Highland...Han sense of duty and OATH to the King forces him to comply in attacking Muse. It isn't that hard to understand. He was fighting for what he believe was the good for his people..but found out in the end (along with Genkaku) that they were merely fighting for land and territory...not for the people. THAT is why they considered their fighting "nonsense". |
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Rune hunter
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| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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If you believe shun min death is laughable then it would seem you would also believe Yun(yun is the shaman from suikoden 3) died in vain. The reason Yun was killed is also laughable based from your reasoning why shun min dead is laughable. I'll draw you a parallel Yun died becouse she was sacrificed in a ritual, a ritual that was said to bring a blessing to the village of alma kinan. No one at the village,at the time anyway, had any proof that Yun sacrifice would actual lead to a "blessing of the village". However the people of Alma Kinan could only base the ritual on there belief. See the similarity?
Alright let me change my example of the rock. Let me ask you given a chance to steal the venus de milo do you think a greedy person would not hesitate to kill for that statue? The venus de milo is a statue. Bear in mind that the venus de milo is statue made of NORMAL rock and its uniquely shaped.
I started an interesting question in suikosource. The topic was "Is fate unchangable when the true runes are involved?" here is the address just copy paste it to see for yourself
http://www.suikosource.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=77408#77408
They had some interesting things to say but let me give you a slight preview this is what demon eye(one of the posters said)
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I'm curious as to what desires each person believes the True Runes to have. They have shown very little desires. They have all acted within their individual nature. They are obviously sentient or at least self-aware, but they have shown no drive to do anything but be. Mortals seem to try to achieve their own individual desires through usage of these True Runes. I see no example of a True Rune pursuing anything if I recall correctly.
One will argue that they choose their bearers, but do they really? There ar eindeed prerequisites for True Rune usage. But, do they not always seem to end up with a bearer who can best bring out their nature. That's not really choosing, it's meeting the right "fit". Let me clarify by a very simple example.
Not every person can wear the same size pants, correct? Only the person that meets the criteria can fit that pair of pants. The pants don't desire that person to meet the criterion, it's just the rules and the way things are. The pants are made a certain way and only that particular person can fit it. It can be argued that True Runes are the same way.
If they existed before the world began, then what desires would they need? They are existence within itself. There should be nothing they want and I have seen no example of them wanting or desiring anything. I think we may have been misguided by the Creation Myths and various other myths being told about the True Runes.
Fate and destiny have no bearance on the immortal. That seems to be a total contradiction. Why would you need a destiny if you will exist forever? You would have no fate but to exist for all eternity. Unless, of course, they can be destroyed. But, not in the conventional sense. I'm talking about when every thing else cease to exist, then there is nothing to acknowledge their existence.
It's a paradox. Does one exist or know of their existence within someone else to proclaim it? A god cannot truly be a god without followers that worship. Do the True Runes really care about that? Seeing Luc's dream, it seems unlikely. He claims they pass on from world to world causing leaving nothing if I recall correctly. But, it seems like the mortals are the ultimate cause of this due to their greed and ambitions. Hmm, who really knows, though.
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here is another
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My question to this is what makes everyone think that True Runes have anything to do with fate or destiny? Man trekks his own path into the future and each individual has their own predetermined destiny. The True Runes, may or may not have anything to do with what a man's fate or destiny is. That's for the individual man to find out and through their own actions to change it if that is that individual's desire to do so. It is more than likely that True Runes are beyond the concept of such terms as fate and destiny. Why would they care about the fate or destiny of mortals? It would seem rather inconsequential.
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last, this is what he said about what Luc say in his vision.
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You must remember that the vision was what mortal minds could perceive. It could very well be a projection of their own fears. I still believe that the True Wind Rune showed Luc what he wanted to see. Balance is already inherent to True Runes' nature. They already embody harmony due to their inherent duality. I just fail to see what agenda they would need or why they would desire to obliterate mortal life which they supposedly brought into existence in the first place. Seems rather contradictory.
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About Han Cunningham. If that was how he really felt. That his sense of duty and oath forces him to attack muse and that by doing so he was fighting for what he believed was for the good of the people then...he is no better than Novum and Braham. That is the same logic they use to support godwin. And the same logic they use to fight for "the good of the people." |
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Camus the Noble
Les Renés
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| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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First of all, to lay to rest once and for all the myth of the unwritten Blue Moon Bird recipe, I posit these questions: What did Hai Yo tear up? If it was not the Blue Moon Bird recipe, why did Jinkai then cry out that Hai Yo had torn up the Blue Moon Bird recipe? And if that piece of paper was the Blue Moon Bird recipe, then wasn't the recipe clearly written down?
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| I'll draw you a parallel Yun died becouse she was sacrificed in a ritual, a ritual that was said to bring a blessing to the village of alma kinan. No one at the village,at the time anyway, had any proof that Yun sacrifice would actual lead to a "blessing of the village". |
What? This makes no sense. There is absolute, concrete proof that the Grasslandic spirits exist. We see them responding to Aila when she asks for help in tracking Sarah. Yun isn't killed in some bloody Aztec sacrifice; she is bodily taken into the spirit realm. Now, having established that the spirits exist, it seems logical that the tribe that communicates with them would know their nature.
Although, I seem to recall the ritual not being intended to bless the village, but to break the seal on the True Water Rune. Interestingly enough, Suikosource backs up my notion.
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| Alright let me change my example of the rock. Let me ask you given a chance to steal the venus de milo do you think a greedy person would not hesitate to kill for that statue? The venus de milo is a statue. Bear in mind that the venus de milo is statue made of NORMAL rock and its uniquely shaped. |
We would have to look at why the person would want to steal the Venus de Milo. Possibly, they simply wanted the thrill of stealing and the pleasure of possessing it. In that case, the analogy does not match up, because, according to you, the chefs of the Black Dragon Group wanted the recipe for its "power." In our world, of course, it is not up for debate whether or not the Venus actually possesses mystical power.
Now, going back up to your previous posts...
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| Who defined destiny as what true runes want to happen? |
Suikoden III. Luc's visions revealed that the fate of the world was driven by the True Runes. If the True Wind Rune had its way, dharma would conquer chaos and rule the world. No doubt, if the Eightfold Rune had its way, the opposite would happen. The fact is that the world is the battlefield of these forces and their struggles drive the world's destiny; but that destiny can be altered by the denizens of the world if they unite under the Stars of Destiny for a common goal.
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| not all the stars are balls of burning gas becouse we have not see all the stars |
This analogy is flawed because the very definition of a star is a ball of burning gas. If a "star" turned out to not be a ball of burning gas, it would not be a star at all.
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| And no one should worship a carpenter who died 2000 years ago. That would be silly wouldn't you say? Fact of the matter is people do worship some of the most outlandish things. |
No, I wouldn't say that worshipping a carpenter (if he really was one, but that's irrelevant) who died two thousand years ago is silly, because it's what passes for mainstream worship in this world. What is considered "outlandish" in terms of worship must be measured against what else is worshipped in that religious climate. In our world, people have worshipped artifacts, idols, spirits, and immaterial entities.
Which is why recipe-worship is so unbelievable in the Suikoden world. The things worshipped in the Suikoden world are those things that clearly have supernatural powers. A recipe, however, is something clearly made by mortals.
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| That whole Jesus analogy is wrong. First of all Jesus has already stated in undeniable terms and revieled to the entire world he is the son of god and yet many still dont believe him. |
Eh? To me, "undeniable" means "impossible to deny." Yet billions deny Jesus' divinity, and it seems to me to be quite deniable. The fact that the Gospels contradict each other on so many points, for example, makes their recond somewhat less than undeniable. And, regardless, he hasn't revealed anything to the "entire world." What about those millions who have never heard of Christianity, and never will?
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| And if the bible is to be believe even when he reveals himself again to the world there will still be many who wont believe him. |
My conditions included "undeniable terms," meaning that they cannot be denied under any conceivable circumstances.
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| Even chris(a mentally sound and infromed suikoden character) did not believe that whole ritual of Alma Kinan. |
Chris wasn't informed. She came from Zexen, had little exposure to the Grasslandic culture, and was not a follower of the religion of the spirits, which, as shown in Suikoden III, is correct. Her disgust for the ritual was a knee-jerk reaction to the different ways of a legitimate culture. Unfortunately, the Black Dragon Group lacks such legitimacy.
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| So now your misqouting me are you now. If you read carefully I said "On an interesting side note there happens to be "vampires" in our world. Not the same kind of vampires as the suikoden world but vampires none the less. " The general definition of vampires are people who dring blood. Not all vampires have to turn to a bat to be called a vampire. The general definition is that they suck blood Laughing |
I didn't misquote you, nor did I fail to read carefullly. I was unsure of what you meant, and thus qualified my rejection of your assertion with a "if you mean 'vampire' to mean..."
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| Prove to me that staying in the sun palace is what the true rune wanted and I will believe that the will of the true rune is unchangable. |
I'm not trying to use your example against you; I'm just trying to neutralize it.
Also, in response to your quotes...
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| Balance is already inherent to True Runes' nature. They already embody harmony due to their inherent duality. |
Eh? How are True Runes inherently dual? Does demon eye mean to refer to the Twenty-Seven as a whole? If so, then his analysis is flawed. The True Runes don't have a collective will; each has its own aims.
If, however, he simply means the individual True Rune, his analysis is even more flawed. The Night Rune isn't dual because it only embodies night. If it was dual, it would embody both night and day. |
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Rune hunter
Joined: 02 May 2006
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| Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 1:22 am Post subject: |
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If it was not the Blue Moon Bird recipe, why did Jinkai then cry out that Hai Yo had torn up the Blue Moon Bird recipe? And if that piece of paper was the Blue Moon Bird recipe, then wasn't the recipe clearly written down?
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Simply disprove this reasoning. If you can do that i'll accept it was written down. The reason why Jinkai did not write it down was becouse he wanted to keep it secret. If he had written many copies of it it would make that much easier to steal the secret.
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What? This makes no sense. There is absolute, concrete proof that the Grasslandic spirits exist. We see them responding to Aila when she asks for help in tracking Sarah. Yun isn't killed in some bloody Aztec sacrifice; she is bodily taken into the spirit realm. Now, having established that the spirits exist, it seems logical that the tribe that communicates with them would know their nature.
Although, I seem to recall the ritual not being intended to bless the village, but to break the seal on the True Water Rune. Interestingly enough, Suikosource backs up my notion.
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Your are simply acting just like Chris. When Yun was about to be sacrifice chris could not understand why she was being sacrificed. She had no proof what so ever that what would actual occur would actual have any significant meaning. Similarly we have no proof that when shun min was killed it was becouse the recipe had any significant meaning. Chris like us can only believe that what Yun(in our case shun min) death had significance.
Your saying Aila "communing" during the attack is proof eh? I could simply say all I saw was a bunch of lights and that aila was simply using a kind of tracking rune.
As for the whole break the true water rune seal thing. Did the village have proof, before they sacrificed Yun of course, that what they did will actually result to the breaking of seal? I mean this would be the first time they were going to attempt it, right? After all it was only Jimba who sealed the TWR it must have only been like, what? 20 years? Fact of the matter is it will be the first time its preformed. Unless you can prove to me that village has broken the water seal before.
Sigh* if you must know the Zexens do know that the grasslanders worship spirits but the Zexens themselves do not believe such worship and if you were to say spirit worship is a "correct" religion to the Zexen,let just say many would not believe you.
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. In that case, the analogy does not match up, because, according to you, the chefs of the Black Dragon Group wanted the recipe for its "power." In our world, of course, it is not up for debate whether or not the Venus actually possesses mystical power.
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What could be more powerful than the statue of the venus. If you sell that statue you would make millions. Enough money to make you a "powerful" person.
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Eh? To me, "undeniable" means "impossible to deny."
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Really? If i presented the most concrete proof, the most undeniable proof, that aliens do not exist to the most ardent believer well I dont think they'll believe me wouldn't you say? Or if i presented undeniable proof to conspiracy theories that the goverment is not out to get them will they believe me? You get the point dont you?
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Suikoden III. Luc's visions revealed that the fate of the world was driven by the True Runes. If the True Wind Rune had its way, dharma would conquer chaos and rule the world. No doubt, if the Eightfold Rune had its way, the opposite would happen. The fact is that the world is the battlefield of these forces and their struggles drive the world's destiny; but that destiny can be altered by the denizens of the world if they unite under the Stars of Destiny for a common goal.
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You must remember that the vision was what mortal minds could perceive. It could very well be a projection of their own fears. I still believe that the True Wind Rune showed Luc what he wanted to see. Balance is already inherent to True Runes' nature. They already embody harmony due to their inherent duality. I just fail to see what agenda they would need or why they would desire to obliterate mortal life which they supposedly brought into existence in the first place. Seems rather contradictory.
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It seems your were not reading everything in the qoute eh?
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This analogy is flawed because the very definition of a star is a ball of burning gas. If a "star" turned out to not be a ball of burning gas, it would not be a star at all.
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Yes your right. Its our definition that stars are burning ball of fire. But we happened to consider that the planet venus(in the past before we had telescopes) was also a star. It is up to you to prove that not all the thing you believe are "stars" are actually stars. Just as its up to you to prove that the RoP will not always turn people to dust or that it can be borne somewhere beside the left arm.
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I didn't misquote you, nor did I fail to read carefullly. I was unsure of what you meant, and thus qualified my rejection of your assertion with a "if you mean 'vampire' to mean..."
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I simply meant that there are unbelievable things in this world. Nothing more nothing less. And if such unbelievable things can exist in this world why can it not exist in the suikoden world.
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because it's what passes for mainstream worship in this world
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I see. So by your logic anything mainstream is not outlandish? So if mainstream culture would prevent freedom of expression you would not think that is outlandish? Or if mainstream culture now views that america as empiralist its not outlandish?
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I'm not trying to use your example against you; I'm just trying to neutralize it.
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I am doing exactly the same. I am trying to neutralize your argument. Unless you can prove that all the things that have happened is the will of the true rune, unless you can prove that the Choices Sierra and Arhstat made were the will of the true rune I can see no point in this argument.
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The Night Rune isn't dual because it only embodies night. If it was dual, it would embody both night and day.
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That is not the Dual nature of the Night rune. The dual nature of the night rune is this:
A True Rune representing the "power of the night", this rune allows "creatures of the night," such as zombies, skeletons, and vampires to exist, as well as easily brings them back out of existence, when normal methods cannot.
It allows creatures of the night to exist and it also has the power to destroy all creatures of the night. That is its dua
Hehe there is a new post that sums are argument quite nicely.
[quote]
It's hard to know if someone has changed his fate.
someone who was born poor but worked very hard and became a rich man may say "i changed my fate by working hard" but maybe becoming rich was his fate all along. maybe his willingness of working hard was his fate.
[/qoute] |
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Camus the Noble
Les Renés
Joined: 24 Sep 2005
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Location: Vinay Del Zexay
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| Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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I saw your new thread. Way to misstate my position. As Rainrir has stated multiple times, it's not that we find the death itself laughable, but the premise of the death. Anyway, if you are still interested in debating this point, you can go back and reread all my other posts. I have nothing more to add, nor is this something that can truly be judged by objective standards. What you find believable and what I find believable are clearly not in the same range. I WILL, however, make a slight detour to address this:
| Rune hunter wrote: |
| Simply disprove this reasoning. If you can do that i'll accept it was written down. The reason why Jinkai did not write it down was becouse he wanted to keep it secret. If he had written many copies of it it would make that much easier to steal the secret. |
I think that somewhere there has been a misunderstanding. My point is that the recipe was written down. You seem to be arguing against the notion that it was reproduced. If at any time I implied that there was necessarily more than one copy, I misspoke (or mistyped).
With that cleared up, I have to ask: What makes you think you have the right to demand that I disprove your reasoning, which is nothing but a "maybe" scenario (at no time does Jinkai say anything of the sort that you are insinuating), when you refused to answer to my questions?
To sum up: My thesis is this: There was at least one written copy of the Blue Moon Bird recipe. Do you disagree? If so, what was that piece of paper that Hai Yo tore up?
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| Your are simply acting just like Chris. |
I'm afraid I don't follow. My argument was in defense of the ritual.
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| I could simply say all I saw was a bunch of lights and that aila was simply using a kind of tracking rune. |
You could say that. But then you would have to back it up if you wanted people to take the theory seriuosly. And that would be quite a chore, much harder than arguing either of the positions in our current debate. Why would Aila pray to the spirits and then use a rune to accomplish exactly what she was asking for? I suppose maybe if she was putting on a show for someone, but there is no evidence to support the notion that she was aware of anyone watching here. And then there's the fact that she did not bear any such rune...
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| Unless you can prove to me that village has broken the water seal before. |
You seem to have a preoccupation with proof. I think it's a completely fair extrapolation to say that the Shaman Clan, the business of which is the mysticism of the spirits of Grassland, knew what they were doing. Not having actually been shown in-game more than a few months of the centuries-long history of the Grassland, I can "prove" very little -- but I can fairly extrapolate.
Funnily enough, I wouldn't think that someone so demanding in terms of proof would say something like:
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| First of all Jesus has already stated in undeniable terms and revieled to the entire world he is the son of god |
I don't mean any disrespect, but I find it ironic that you apparently aren't so demanding in terms of proof for your religion.
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| What could be more powerful than the statue of the venus. If you sell that statue you would make millions. Enough money to make you a "powerful" person. |
I said it had no "mystical" power. It certainly, however, does have monetary power. I actually was going to go somewhere with that as part of my own argument last time, but I decided against it, and, as I said, I'm done arguing Shun Min's death.
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| Really? If i presented the most concrete proof, the most undeniable proof, that aliens do not exist to the most ardent believer well I dont think they'll believe me wouldn't you say? Or if i presented undeniable proof to conspiracy theories that the goverment is not out to get them will they believe me? You get the point dont you? |
No, I don't. The definition of "undeniable" that you use does not truly mean "undeniable." If something is undeniable, in the most unfiltered meaning of the word, then nothing -- not paranoia, not faith, not reason, not emotion, nothing -- can get in the way of belief in it. Nothing.
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| It seems your were not reading everything in the qoute eh? |
It seems I was. The other thesis in the quote -- that the visions shown to Luc were what he wanted to see -- seemed so absurd to me that I didn't feel a need to respond to it. I remember absolutely nothing in Suikoden III to support that idea. If you can, please, by all means, refresh my memory.
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| It is up to you to prove that not all the thing you believe are "stars" are actually stars. Just as its up to you to prove that the RoP will not always turn people to dust or that it can be borne somewhere beside the left arm. |
Flawed analogy. If a "star" turned out to not be a star, that would fundamentally alter its meaning, because the very definition of a star is a large burning ball of plasma. But if the Rune of Punishment could be borne on the head, or did not turn a victim to dust, it would not fundamentally alter the nature of the rune, simply our understanding of it.
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| I simply meant that there are unbelievable things in this world. Nothing more nothing less. And if such unbelievable things can exist in this world why can it not exist in the suikoden world. |
My definition of "unbelievable," as I said before, differs from yours. If something exists in this world, then it is certainly not "unbelievable" to me. That includes bloodsuckers, as long as they're not undead. By my definition, "unbelievable" things cannot exist at all because something that exists is by default believable.
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| I see. So by your logic anything mainstream is not outlandish? |
Finally, you understand one of my points. Of course anything mainstream is not outlandish. Again, we seem to have a failure to communicate in terms of definitions. My definition of "outlandish" necessarily entails existence outside the mainstream. Outlandishness is relative to what is considered "landish."
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| Or if mainstream culture now views that america as empiralist its not outlandish? |
I realize this isn't a political debate, but I fail to see how anyone could consider the statement "America is not imperialist" outlandish in ANY sense of the word.
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| I am doing exactly the same. I am trying to neutralize your argument. Unless you can prove that all the things that have happened is the will of the true rune, unless you can prove that the Choices Sierra and Arhstat made were the will of the true rune I can see no point in this argument. |
No, you aren't trying to neutralize my argument. You're trying to add a dimension to the debate, by bringing Arshtat and Sierra into it. You're the one who brought them up. You are the one who has to prove that they are relevant, or they do not need to be discussed.
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| It allows creatures of the night to exist and it also has the power to destroy all creatures of the night. That is its dua |
I wouldn't call that a dual nature. That's not the Night Rune at its most basic. The fundamental nature of the Night Rune is that it rules over the concept of night. You're taking two aspects -- and minor aspects at that -- of the entire concept and ignoring the rest.
Anyway, this debate has descended into nothing more than misunderstandings and semantic trifles. I see two solutions:
1) We stop debating.
2) We start over.
I would prefer the latter, but I'll let you decide. If you choose the second, then we will both need to clearly state our theses and represent the evidence. No more references to anything in any of our previous posts. (If you wish to respond to anything in this post, please clearly indicate where the old argument ends and where we begin anew.) Also, please note that I am referring here only to our discussion of the True Runes and destiny. Our discussion of Shun Min's death is at an end, for reasons enumerated above. |
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Ninjar
The Shins
Joined: 05 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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| I vote for putting a halt to the debate. At this point it is clear that nothing will be established from it. Could be just me though. |
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Rainrir
Landsknecht
Joined: 06 May 2006
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| Posted: Sat May 20, 2006 2:07 am Post subject: |
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Err....The arguement has come to get involved in too many other side topics to be pursued any further. Any more in-depth discussion and we will be debating about other more...fundermental things...which is not desirable, lest we start some type of civil war here.
Furthermore, there need not be further debate because...those who made up their minds HAVE made up their minds..Those who didn't, can see the strengths of each side's arguement from the posts before which is pretty exhaustive. What is happening now is that we are arguing in circles...where we make alot of noise but get no where...As I say, let the arguements speak for themselves and we will let this trend die... |
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