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mumbay
White Maiden Mercenaries
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 Posted: Sat May 13, 2006 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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| I find Katarine and commander Glen to be a tragic love story. Not husband and wife love though. IT was Daughter to Father love. The sad thing was the fact that Glen never knew about Katarina being his daughter. |
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Rune hunter
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| Posted: Sun May 14, 2006 5:00 am Post subject: |
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You seem to not understand why I think that the premise of Shun Min death is believable. Assume for a minute you were Jinkai(leader of the black dragon clan) and someone just stole a very important secret from you. Would you not try to retrieve that secret even if it meant the death of the one who stole it?
Now your issue here is that it was a recipe that was stolen. who kill for a recipe? Who would value an object over a persons life? Who would kill for a piece of paper with something written on it? These are the same kind of people who kill for money(after all money is nothing but a piece of paper with some design on it). These are the same kind of people who value there ideologies over the lives of people(Alenan,Zahhak,Troy). These are the same kind of insane people who make someone act like a pig then kill them. They are the same insane people who creates cults kills themselves(it happened in our why can't it happen in the suikoden world) But they do exist in our world and they do exist in the suikoden world. The moral of those who killed shun min are skewed but so are the moral of many people in the world.
My emphasis with Arhstat and Sierra is they have a CHOICE. I prefer to look at the choices from an amoral prespective. I don't assume either of the one of the choices was better than the other. If ashtat had fled the country with her family in order to have a happy life I wouldn't judge her. Or is Sierra had allowed Rean to live in the small hope of saving i would not judge her. The reason you believe Ashtat and Sierra did not have a choice is purely on a moral basis. My basis that they have a choice is that Sierra and Ashtat could have done thing things differently. Sierra could have allow Rean to live. Ashtat could have escaped and by doing so changed how event would have unfolded.
Now the reason my emphasis is that Ashtat and Sierra and the other rune bearers had a choice is becouse Rainir stated that there can be no fighting the True rune. That the true runes where gods and as long as true rune is involved fate becomes unchangable. Which for me is completely false. People are capable of escaping the curse of true rune. Even without the stars of destiny. One exaple of a person escaping the curse of the Rune of Punishment is Graham Cray(not that he did this without the help of the 108 stars) He cut off him hand thus escaping the true runes curse. Another possible example are the Sindar. They were forced to roam the world becouse of the rune of change. But they somehow manage to escape it curse and live in there "eternal city".
About Lazlo and the rune of punishment. You first said other rune bearer used the rune on a massive scale and the reason Lazlo did not die was becouse he did not use it on a massive scale. The next sentence you said was that Lazlo used the rune a FEW TIME ON A MASSIVE SCALE. Can you explain to me why people like Glen who only used the rune once to destroy the pirate fleet or Cray's son who used it to destroy one village is more massive than Hero4 using the rune not once, not twice, but three times. Hero4 not only used the rune to destroy that crab monster he also used it to destroy an Enemy fleet. Then he used it to prevent them from being destroyed when El Eal was destroyed. Im sure if he was to turn to dust he would have already after doing all that.
Now about Riou. The stars of destiny gave him the ability to change destiny but the stars of destiny they were not the one who chose what would happen to Riou destiny and the destiny of the Rune of Beginning. In the end it was Riou CHOICE whether he wanted destiny to bend his will thus allowing Jowy to be saved or whether to allow destiny to follow it course thus allowing Jowy to Die.
By the way the first line of suikoden I ask "Is fate unchangable?" and the next line was"Even at his most powerless,man's existance is never without meaning" Even camus the noble believe that based on these line fate is changable. Camus said "It's not a direct answer, but an implicit one: if fate is unchangebale, it's hard to see how man's existence can be meaningful. He is robbed of his free will." With or without true rune I believe that fate is never unchangable.
And as I recall Leknaat said "Even destiny bend to someone with a strong will" long after she ask Zerase to place the stone table of promise. She said while Hero5 was in the deep twilight forest. |
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Camus the Noble
Les Renés
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| Posted: Sun May 14, 2006 8:17 am Post subject: |
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| Rune hunter wrote: |
| Would you not try to retrieve that secret even if it meant the death of the one who stole it? |
Well... no. You see, a recipe is something that can be reproduced, unlike money. When someone kills for money, it is certainly immoral, but at least there is a certain logical goal behind it. No such goal exists in this scenario. Jinkai could simply have written the recipe down again, or if he couldn't do so off the top of his head, he could have hunted Shun Min down and asked to be able to make a copy of it. The fact that Jinkai felt he had to kill to get it back and the fact that every single member of the Black Dragon Group fell in lockstep with his plan make the story laughable, and the frivolity of the subject matter (death over a recipe) make it dismissable. The concept of death over a recipe is so foreign that it makes empathy difficult, lessening the tragic effect.
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| My emphasis with Arhstat and Sierra is they have a CHOICE. I prefer to look at the choices from an amoral prespective. |
But you weren't the one making the choice. Sierra and Arshtat, the two whose choices we're talking about, certainly looked at their choices from a moral perspective. Through their morality-tinted lenses, there was no true choice. YOU can look at it from whatever perspective you like, but we are discussing THEIR choices, which THEY viewed from a moral perspective.
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| One exaple of a person escaping the curse of the Rune of Punishment is Graham Cray(not that he did this without the help of the 108 stars) He cut off him hand thus escaping the true runes curse. |
He didn't escape the curse, at least not be his own designs. The rejection was mutual. If the Rune of Punishment had wanted to continue to be borne by Graham, it would have simply transferred itself to his head (we know from Suikoden V that True Runes do not always necessarily have to be on the right hand). Remember too, that later, when Graham came to reclaim the rune, it rejected him. The Rune of Punishment willingly left Graham Cray.
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| Another possible example are the Sindar. They were forced to roam the world becouse of the rune of change. But they somehow manage to escape it curse and live in there "eternal city". |
First of all, the "eternal city" very well may be a myth. If not, it's possible that the Rune of Change simply changed its mind, or left the Sindar (hey, the Rune of Punishment did it with Graham Cray). But it seems more likely to me that the eternal city was brought about by a group of Stars of Destiny. Regardless, we simply don't know enough about the Sindar to hold them up as a poster boy of free will. Please find another, in-game example.
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| Can you explain to me why people like Glen who only used the rune once to destroy the pirate fleet or Cray's son who used it to destroy one village is more massive than Hero4 using the rune not once, not twice, but three times. |
No, I can't explain it. Perhaps Lazlo was in far better condition then the other two? We know that Glen wasn't in the best shape, but I'm afraid we don't know anything about the condition of Graham's son. Or is it just that the Rune of Punishment is capricious? (Punishment often is.) Regardless, we have proof here that the Rune of Punishment does not always act in exactly the same manner.
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| Im sure if he was to turn to dust he would have already after doing all that. |
Then perhaps he didn't have to turn to dust to die? Or, perhaps Leknaat was somehow prolonging his life in an attempt to empower him to break the rune's curse for all time? But as I said, this is proof that the Rune of Punishment does not always act in the same manner. Given that, there is no reason to suggest that just because Lazlo did not turn to dust, he was still alive.
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| In the end it was Riou CHOICE whether he wanted destiny to bend his will thus allowing Jowy to be saved or whether to allow destiny to follow it course thus allowing Jowy to Die. |
We are agreed. As I said, it was the power of the Stars of Destiny, manifested through the choice made by the Tenkai Star. In no way does that imply to me that your thesis, that the will of one person can bend destiny, is correct.
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| Even camus the noble believe that based on these line fate is changable. Camus said "It's not a direct answer, but an implicit one: if fate is unchangebale, it's hard to see how man's existence can be meaningful. He is robbed of his free will." |
Of course. I do believe that fate is changeable. But I believe also that the group of the Stars of Destiny is the vehicle by which man may change fate. Every time that will HAS triumphed over fate (although we admittedly don't have that many examples), it was accomplished through the Stars of Destiny.
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| With or without true rune I believe that fate is never unchangable. |
So you believe, then, that the will of one person can be stronger than that of one of the eternal True Runes that have existed from the beginning of the world? |
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Rune hunter
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| Posted: Sun May 14, 2006 10:33 am Post subject: |
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Firstly I ask you to put yourself in Jinkai shoes. Dont forget shun min stole it was not she was going to tell Jinkai what was in the recipe. There could be many reason why they could not write it down. For them maybe that recipe was sacred and could not be written down. Or they could have been in the process of writing it down before shun min stole it or it could have been in some weird or ancient language and they were just about to translate it who knows. But the fact remains Jinkai had no alternative but to take it back from shun min even at what ever cost.
Ever played Final fantasy X-2? Yuna of FFX-2 said something like " We had no choice. We had no choice. These were are magic words. But you know the magic never worked." This sums up my argument. That even though in Ashtat and Sierra minds there was no other alternative there were alternatives. They just thought that it was impossible and decided that the "only choice" in there eyes where those choice but in reality there were really other choices.
How can you say he did not escape the rune of his own design? If the the true runes were so godlike that you cannot do anything against the will of the true runes then why would the true rune allow Cray to cut off his own hand. There would be no logic to it. The true rune wanted nothing but to consume lives and destroy. And Cray could not obtain the rune of punishment on el eal becouse he lost the "battle of will" between himself and Lazlo. It is also purely speculation on you part that the rune rejected Cray. We do not even know how sentient the true rune are. The more probable reason the true rune did not tranfer to Cray was becouse Lazlo did not die during the battle with the Tree. After all the rune of punishment only transfer when the bearer is dead which Lazlo clearly was not at the time.
Alright let me give you another example. When Lazlo was fighting Branduau. Branduau used the rune of punishment but something or rather someone was protect, a woman. People speculate that this woman was the Queen who might be Lazlo mother but let not get into that now. Anyways the point im trying to make here is that the spirit of a dead human woman was capable of preventing the death of Lazlo. A death that would have been caused by the full blow of a true rune. Im sure the RoP wanted to destroy Lazlo at the time,after all the rune of punishment does not distingish who it kill all it wants is to keep killing and murdering. And yet the strong will of that woman prevented it. This just shows that even if the RoP was godlike it is not a god and even its will can be bent by one mere human spirit who has a strong enough will.
Riou chose not fight Jowy. None of the stars of destiny had anything to do with this choice. None of them affected this choice. It was purely Riou will that determined this choice. The only thing the stars of destiny affected was what would happen becouse of this choice.
Yes i do believe one human can go against the true runes who have existed since the begining of time. And there are many character in the suikoden world who has this same believe like Hugo,Chris,Geddoe and the flame champion.
BTW leknaat said something else in suikoden 3 that help confirm destiny is not unchangable
Leknaat: "My apprentice, my son, child of a cursed rune, you're a human child.One that can sleep now. Even though Destiny can be brutal, it will allow you to rest. 108 stars will bless you. Man is powerful enough to change destiny.No matter how futile our struggles seem, they all make a difference!" |
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Camus the Noble
Les Renés
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| Posted: Sun May 14, 2006 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Rune hunter wrote: |
| There could be many reason why they could not write it down. |
It was almost certainly written down. Hai Yo tore up a piece of paper on which the recipe was written!
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| For them maybe that recipe was sacred and could not be written down. |
If they considered the recipe sacred, then that just makes the story more unbelievable. Remember, my complaint is that the story arc is so frivolous, that the scenario of deaths for the sake of a recipe is so foreign, that the story cannot reach any truly tragic level. If you can empathize with people killing and dying over recipes, more power to you. However, I simply find the very concept laughable.
[qutoe]Ever played Final fantasy X-2? Yuna of FFX-2 said something like " We had no choice. We had no choice. These were are magic words. But you know the magic never worked." This sums up my argument. [/quote]
I haven't played Final Fantasy X-2 in some time, and I'm afraid I can't understand the relevance of this quote without the context.
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| That even though in Ashtat and Sierra minds there was no other alternative there were alternatives. They just thought that it was impossible and decided that the "only choice" in there eyes where those choice but in reality there were really other choices. |
Yes, there were theoretical alternatives. However, because Sierra and Arshtat's morals prevented them from being able to choose those choices, they were not practical possibilities. They did not matter, because there was no chance, given Arshtat and Sierra's moral outlooks, that they would choose those paths. The standard isn't what was physically possible, it's what Sierra and Arshtat consider possible. And it's clear that they did not consider fleeing the Sun Palace or sparing Rean morally or practically possible.
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| If the the true runes were so godlike that you cannot do anything against the will of the true runes then why would the true rune allow Cray to cut off his own hand. |
Because the rune no longer wanted to be held by Cray. If it had, it simply would have jumped to his head after the hand was cut off. Chances are better that Cray wouldn't have cut his head off.
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| There would be no logic to it. The true rune wanted nothing but to consume lives and destroy |
Would Cray have used to it consume lives and destroy? Doubtful. He loathed the rune on account of his son's death, and would not have wanted to use it. Nor would he have any real cause to, given that there weren't any big wars going on in the region. With Lazlo, the Rune of Punishment had a perfect bearer, someone with both the cause and the will to use it to kill thousands.
Although, that seems llike a rather poor appraisal of the Rune of Punishment. It governs punishment, not death. That is the realm of the Soul Eater.
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| We do not even know how sentient the true rune are. |
They are generally considered as having sentience similar to that of humans. According to Suikosource, True Runes are "wholly sentient with [their] own will," have sentience that can "overwhelm" some humans, have "purposes," can be "fickle" in choosing who to be borne by, and reappear in the world when they "feel like" it. They sound pretty sentient to me.
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| The more probable reason the true rune did not tranfer to Cray was becouse Lazlo did not die during the battle with the Tree. |
What? No one's suggesting Lazlo died in battle with the tree. He went on to fight Troy after that, so he was clearly alive.
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| After all the rune of punishment only transfer when the bearer is dead which Lazlo clearly was not at the time. |
How was Lazlo "clearly" not dead? Just because the rune didn't transfer? Runes do go into periods of dormancy from time to time, and the Rune of Punishment had just gone through what was certainly one of the most active periods of its existence. It might need a rest.
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| Im sure the RoP wanted to destroy Lazlo at the time,after all the rune of punishment does not distingish who it kill all it wants is to keep killing and murdering |
Again, you're misappraising the rune's nature. It doesn't want to keep killing mass amounts of people per se, it simply wants to be used so it can feed off it's bearer's life essence. Regardless, it is possible that the rune didn't want to kill Lazlo. As we know from Suikoden III, True Runes can see, or at least glimpse. what is to happen in the future. Perhaps it knew, or more likely suspected, that Lazlo was to bear it? That would explain why it sucked away Glen's life force so quickly. It wanted to be delivered into Lazlo's hands as quickly as possible, so it took that one opportunity to sap Glen's strength and kill him.
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| And yet the strong will of that woman prevented it. This just shows that even if the RoP was godlike it is not a god and even its will can be bent by one mere human spirit who has a strong enough will. |
Let's assume that it was the deceased queen of Obel. As a previous bearer of the Rune of Punishment, her spirit was actually a part of the rune. She was in a far better position to influence it than most. She was not simply "one mere human"; she was part of the rune itself. Perhaps the rune actually used her spirit to save Lazlo, who it wanted to keep alive for the purposes I mentioned above.
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| Riou chose not fight Jowy. None of the stars of destiny had anything to do with this choice. None of them affected this choice. It was purely Riou will that determined this choice. The only thing the stars of destiny affected was what would happen becouse of this choice. |
It is the nature of the Black Sword and Bright Shield Runes to stay either at odds with one another or to exist united. The best ending is the only one in which the two runes are brought together and reconciled without conjoining. That is, the best ending is the only one in which the nature of the runes — fate, that is — is thwarted. That can only be accomplished through the power of the Stars of Destiny, a collective entity.
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| Yes i do believe one human can go against the true runes who have existed since the begining of time. |
Explain to me how that is logically possible.
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| And there are many character in the suikoden world who has this same believe like Hugo,Chris,Geddoe and the flame champion. |
And throughout history there have been many people, often intelligent people, who believed that the earth was the center of the solar system or even the universe, like Ptolemy, Aristotle, Anaximander, and countless popes. They must all be right. Therefore, the earth is the center of the universe.
You must see the logical flaws in this argument. Just because some people agree with you (or you with them) doesn't mean that you and they are right.
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| Leknaat: "My apprentice, my son, child of a cursed rune, you're a human child.One that can sleep now. Even though Destiny can be brutal, it will allow you to rest. 108 stars will bless you. Man is powerful enough to change destiny.No matter how futile our struggles seem, they all make a difference!" |
If we're assuming that Leknaat is right, then that still doesn't mean that a single person can changed fate on his or her very own. The fact that she transitioned from forgiveness of Luc to musings on man's role in destiny seems odd. What's in the middle? The sentence: "108 stars [sic] will bless you." Could that be the transition? If so, then what we have here is an implicative indicator that man's role in shaping destiny is inherently tied to the Stars of Destiny. |
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Rainrir
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| Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 2:05 am Post subject: |
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I am not going to "add wings to a tiger". It seems that Camus got most of the things covered.
Rune Hunter, you give me the impression you are trying to defend some kind of strong belief.Frankly, I do not think people go to that kind of extent to defend a belief from a world of fiction.
You must understand that what we are discussing here (about challenging fate in the Suikoden world ) has nothing to do with "challenging fate" in the real world. In Suikoden there are identifiable "gods" that can be seen and hear physically (the True Runes) that DO control fate somewhat. In the REAL world, the existance of something called "fate" is non-existant at worse, circumstantial at best.
How things work in the Suikoden World does not necessarily reflect (completely) what happens in the REAL World.
The message of the Suikoden World is that YES people can change fate, even in the face of great adversity or even god-like opposition. But Suikoden is also a game about collective will and how it can achieve great things.
The gathering of the 108 stars is about how diverse people can work to gather to defy what is "fate" in the Suikoden World. Granted the games give the impression that the "108 stars of destiny" is some kind of mystical , magical force that might not sit well with you, but I think that the "108 stars of destiny" is just a metaphor how different people working together can change the world.
The reason why the "108 Stars of Detsiny" might appear mystical is because the force it counters (fate...the True Runes) IS a SUPERNATURAL entity. Hence, the 108 stars of destiny..in order to story to make sense, must have some kind of SUPERNATURAL quality as well.
I hope this is understandable...the concept I am trying to explain is kind of ..abstract..and I am running out of time. So if anyone has any issue/questions just sound out..I will clarify when I have the time.
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Rune hunter
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| Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 2:36 am Post subject: |
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Sigh* did you even bother to read my post. What if they were in the process of writing down the recipe but were not able to finish becouse of shun min actions. It could be possible that they had only recently obtain that recipe and that is why they have not even begun to write it. There are a countless number of possibilities why they needed that recipe shun min stole.
And why could the recipe be sacred unbelievable? In the history of man, men have consider many thing sacred. From animals, to golden bull statues. To even mean sticks of wood that people believe were part of the true cross. The list goes on and on of "unbelievable" things people consider sacred. It is purely subjective of you to believe that a recipe(with was supose to be the recipe that grands ultimate happiness) would not be sacred to chefs who's desire was to make the perfect dish. THe black dragon clan in this sense is like a cult. And why could a cult like this not exist in a world of vampires kobold and all the other unbelivable things in the suikoden world.
Let me give you a very brief summary of final fantasy x/x-2. The people of that world sacrfices summoners(Yuna happens to be a summoner) to a being called sin. All the people of that believe this was the only way to stop sin. How ever Yuna and the heroes of FFX/x-2 proved this wrong. Even though every one believe "they had no choice" there were other choices they could make.
Actual that is wrong. Ashtat was half inclined to accept ferid's offer. However she CHOSE not to leave her country. Ashtat choice would be meaningless if the she was only being manipulated by the true rune to stay. However it was not the true rune who decided for ashtat it was ashtat herself. The same goes for Sierra. She chose to kill Rean. No one was manipulating her.
You do not know what the true rune was thinking at the time. You cannot prove the true rune did not want to stay with Cray. But I do know for a fact that Cray did not want the true rune and cut off his arm to get rid of it. And it is more likely it was his action that made the rune leave Cray.
The same can be said of all bearers of the RoP. They certainly did not want and were not planning to use the rune but circumstnces forced them to. Not to mention most of the time even when there were no big wars the rune was still used. (all the know bearers die when there was no major war).
Now the reason I said the RoP does not tranfer becouse Lazlo is alive is becouse you believe the RoP did not tranfer to Cray becouse the rune the did not want to. The more likely reason is that the Rune would only tranfer when its bearer dies.
I think you are the one misapprasing the rune. For one thing the runes does not go dormant(unless there are no host near by when its bearer dies) And Leknaat herself said if the rune was ever to leave Lazlo it would continue on its murdering rampage.
Why would the rune use the spirit of the woman to save Lazlo? It could simply just not destroy Lazlo and allow brandue to turn to dust. This for me shows it was not the rune will that saved Lazlo
The true rune of punishment is a True Rune that represents atonement and forgiveness and is always borne on the left hand of its host; this rune is a parasite that feeds off its host with fatal consequences: the rune has tremendous offensive capabilities; however, using them drains the bearer's life force, eventually to the extent that he or she turns to ash and their memories are locked away in the Rune. I read it in suikosource it at least show that Lazlo did not die becouse of the curse of the rune of punishment(if he was dead when he was at the boat). He had to turn to dust if he was killed the curse.
Your right it was the 108 collective will that change destiny. But it was Riou who chose who how destiny would bend. It was only Riou who decided nt to fight jowy in that sense it was only Riou who changed destiny. Think of the stars as a gun and Riou as the person holding that gun. If the gun was shot you do not say it was the guns "will" to be shot. It was only the person holding the gun who decided to shot the gun.
"Man is strong enough to change destiny" I simply cannot seen why you can still misuderstand this statement. Why would Leknaat say man is strong enough to change destiny when man would need the 108 stars to do it?
Im not defending a strong believe really. I just dont like to lose in an argument. And I just dont like it when people believe that there happens to be something too unbelievable to be included in a FANTASY game especial when clearly there happens to be more unbelievable things in that game.(vampire mermaid etc) Why exactly can a cult fanatical about cooking not exist in the world of suikoden? I simply disliked it when you called shun min death laughable and nearly unbelievable when there happens to other deaths in the suikoden world just as unbelievable and as laughable. cough*Sialeed/Alenia/Troy*cough |
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Rainrir
Landsknecht
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| Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 10:02 am Post subject: |
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| Sigh* did you even bother to read my post. What if they were in the process of writing down the recipe but were not able to finish becouse of shun min actions. It could be possible that they had only recently obtain that recipe and that is why they have not even begun to write it. There are a countless number of possibilities why they needed that recipe shun min stole. |
Whatever the case, the fact is that they do not need to kill her to get the recipe..there can be many, many other ways to get Hai Yo to surrender the recipe...like the duels they have with Hai Yo..they seem perfectly happy to sort it out on the cooking arena...Shun Min's death then..to me seem poorly justied and conceived.
I never said Shun Min's death is not tragic..but I say this premise is laughable and stupid...Killing someone over a recipe! In fact the game itself says the same thing....Look at Hai Yo's final duel against Jinkai..where he made him realised that fighting over a recipe is "nonsense"(the game's words not mine)
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Let me give you a very brief summary of final fantasy x/x-2. The people of that world sacrfices summoners(Yuna happens to be a summoner) to a being called sin. All the people of that believe this was the only way to stop sin. How ever Yuna and the heroes of FFX/x-2 proved this wrong. Even though every one believe "they had no choice" there were other choices they could make.
Actual that is wrong. Ashtat was half inclined to accept ferid's offer. However she CHOSE not to leave her country. Ashtat choice would be meaningless if the she was only being manipulated by the true rune to stay. However it was not the true rune who decided for ashtat it was ashtat herself. The same goes for Sierra. She chose to kill Rean. No one was manipulating her. |
I will not be that presumptious as to say if Arshtat did/did not think that that is a viable choice.
However, I feel that during that scene Arshtat and Ferid are actually indulging in wishful thinking. They knew they both cannot take that path Ferid suggested, Ferid just said that idea as a jest. You ever had the experience of really wanting something but can't get it in the end? This is the situation Ferid and Arshtat are in now. True, the Sun Rune did not influence Arshtat's decision to stay..but you can also say that protecting the Sun Rune (and the people of falaena) is what made them do so. Hence the Sun Rune's curse (that it will go out of control) is indirectly the reason they stayed.
Sierra too, it is the Curse of the Blue Moon that caused Rene to have to kill people and drink their blood for survival. So you can also say that the situation Sierra is placed in...is INDIRECTLY caused by the Rune.
Furthermore..the situation Yuna and co. are in is NOT the same as that of Arshtat and Sierra. Yuna and co. had the assistance of several supernatural entities and people that know "the truth" about stopping Sin. (Aeons and a certain dead guardian) They were, in fact, rather lucky that these figures helped and guided them on their way to "change fate". If not for these beings that nudged and pushed them to the truth..Yuna and co. would have foolishly went on their quest (like other summoners) and Yuna would be Sin Dinner #132.
On the other hand, Arshtat and Ferid did NOT have any of these advantages. NOONE that could have given them guidance on how to counter the effect of the Sun Rune are present or chose to help them. And their attempts to find the ONE way to make the Sun rune managable is unsuccessful (looking for the Dawn Rune). You see? Ferid and Arshtat are not as FORTUNATE as Yuna and co. to have people "in the know" helping them out.
Sierra is in a similar situation. The fact that she is probably the oldest being "alive" in the Suikoden World and the fact that she is probably the premier expert on the Blue Moon Rune(she has bore it for so long)..only adds to how there are NO other ways to save Rene known to (probably) anyone. If anyone could have saved Rene, it would be Sierra..but even she is clueless of anyway to DO SO. She (probably) only had two choice...kill Rean and end his suffering or....to let Rean live and let him continue killing(she cannot stop his bloodlust..and probably noone else could have).
Sorry you whole part about the Rune of Punishment flew over my head.. So many things that I don't understand...from your statements... Can you errr...make it in a more understandable form for me? Thanks!
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Your right it was the 108 collective will that change destiny. But it was Riou who chose who how destiny would bend. It was only Riou who decided nt to fight jowy in that sense it was only Riou who changed destiny. Think of the stars as a gun and Riou as the person holding that gun. If the gun was shot you do not say it was the guns "will" to be shot. It was only the person holding the gun who decided to shot the gun.
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Lets get one thing straight...Riou NEVER wanted to kill Jowy..not in the good ending..not in the bad ending. He carried this conviction through the WHOLE GAME. So if Riou (and not the 108 SoDs) that is instrumental to changing fate..he would have been able to save Jowy no matter what...108 SoD or not. But that is clearly untrue. If he never collects/meet the SoDs Jowy must die no matter how much Riou DOESN'T want it to happen.
Your gun example is good but not spot on. If it is that Riou ALONE can change fate...whether the gun exists or not doesn't matter. But as I have shown, that isn't true. It is the fact that the GUN EXISTS that changed fate. It is the fact that the 108 SoDs empowered Riou to be able to change fate without the SoDs there can be no changing fate...SoDs (which Riou is part of) changed fate together.
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"Man is strong enough to change destiny" I simply cannot seen why you can still misuderstand this statement. Why would Leknaat say man is strong enough to change destiny when man would need the 108 stars to do it?
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Becasue Man=People. And the SoDs are made up of PEOPLE! Human, Elf, Drawf, Beaver, Kobold, Nay-Kobold, Dragons, Monsters, Dragon Horses, Bugs, Ducks, Lizards, Unknown Entities, Wingers (did i get them all?)...are all the beings (people) that make up the SoDs. SoDs, which is made up of people (who=man), change fate. Hence Man can change fate! YOU UNDERSTAND?
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| Im not defending a strong believe really. I just dont like to lose in an argument. And I just dont like it when people believe that there happens to be something too unbelievable to be included in a FANTASY game especial when clearly there happens to be more unbelievable things in that game.(vampire mermaid etc) Why exactly can a cult fanatical about cooking not exist in the world of suikoden? I simply disliked it when you called shun min death laughable and nearly unbelievable when there happens to other deaths in the suikoden world just as unbelievable and as laughable. cough*Sialeed/Alenia/Troy*cough |
In any case, I do not feel that any death is laughable...(remember only said the premise of Shun Min's death is laughable to me) but I personally feel that the PREMISE of Sialeed/Alenia/Tory's deaths are NOT unbelievable and laughable....or at least more so then Shun Min's.
I see the new post below me....and I am tempted to reply..but I will not reply until there are more posts..lest I hog the topic heh
Last edited by Rainrir on Mon May 15, 2006 12:10 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Masa
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| Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 11:17 am Post subject: |
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The recipe, however, has tons of significance. If I recall correctly, it had the power to influence people. Something like that is more powerful than a True Rune or military power... why? Set yourself up as Hisusaak's personal chef, you suddenly have all of Harminia at your beck and call. Rinse and repeat for any other nation. The Blue Moon Recipe was possibly one of the most dangerous creations in the history of Suikoden.
So why wasn't it reproduced? They went to great lengths to recover it after it had been stolen. Clearly it was extremely important to them. It may not have been reproduced because Jinkai did not want anyone else to have its secrets. It was his alone.
So why kill Shun Min and then they proceed to cook offs? Killing Shun Min seems weak, yes, but when you realize how potent a weapon she had stolen... it makes sense. And I'm sure the other chefs would have killed Hai Yo, except he happened to be locked up in North Window castle that just happened to have an entire army residing there. Kinda makes it hard to strike him down with that in the way. The Cook Offs were there only alternative to recovering the recipe without upsetting the entire army. If killing Hai Yo had been an option, I have no doubt that is what they would have done.
Besides that, killing off Shun Min was an effective tool in turning everyone against Hai Yo, making the chefs all the more fervent in recovering the recipe from him.
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Rune hunter
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| Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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Hehe thanks for the info and for backing me up Masa.
Anyways first Hai Yo was not really happy with the whole duel and would have rather have not duel with the chefs. The only reason he did it was becouse Riou ask him to. Obviously Hai Yo would say the fighting over the recipe was "nonsense" becouse he lost shun min over that recipe. If you had lost a love one in a war you would probably say the war was "nonsense".
Its true Yuna & co had help and obtain vital information but it was still a big gamble. Even with that it was a big risk on there part and if they fail there would have no stoping sin.
Now back to ashtat. There were people might have know how to counter the rune's curse. Jeane for one. she was living in Sol Falena and dont tell me ferid and Ashtat could not have know about Jeane.(If Kyle knew about Jeane it would not be a stretch that ferid and ashtat knew about Jeane). They were dealing with a true rune after all why not consult an expert on the matter,namely Jeane.
Also concerning about what Leknaat said "*Man is powerful enough to change destiny.No matter how futile our struggles seem, they all make a difference!" This is relevant to what happened to both Sierra and Ashtat becouse even if both of there struggles against the true rune seem futile what ever they did would make a difference.
Now about what you said that "man" could refer to people etc etc. Well it seems "man" could only loosely mean 108. Even if "man" really means 108 stars why would leknaat not just say "108 stars are powerful enough to change destiny" Now this is very relevant becouse the person Leknaat was talking to at the time was Luc who happened to be dying at the time!!!
I dont think Luc would have the energy to figure out that "man" actual means 108 stars of destiny
Also there something I have been wondering. Why bear the sun rune at all? It was not like it was any safer. After all even if godwin wanted the sune how exactly was he planning on stealing it? The rune was guarded 24/7 in the seal room. And the entire palace had guards left and right.
As for Sierra i think she knew how to save him...namely get the blue moon rune. All Sierra had to do was lock Rean away somewhere and then find the blue moon rune. You might say it would be cruel to let Rean live and slowly die but it is just as cruel to kill Rean and deny him the only hope of saving him.
First on a slightly interesting side note. In the non-108 star ending( and even in the 108 ending) Riou could chose to not meet with Jowy and go to the war room and chose to become the president. If he did that he would not fight Jowy. There by changing destiny. According to suikosource the "Bright Shield and Black Sword runes, and bearers of these two runes are bound by the rune's power to fight against each other until only one survives to win the other component" By simply choosing not to meet with jowy he defies the will of the rune of begining who are bound to fight one another. And I could further speculate that Jowy might live if those 2 did not battle becouse when Riou meets Jowy he was perfectly fine at the time and that the only reason he dies is becouse he over exerts himself.
Now about the RoP let make it simple. You did not know that the RoP wanted to leave Cray. You cannot argue that it wanted to leave cray.
As for Lazlo he did not turn to dust. Which happens to ALL rune bearers according to suikosource when they die becouse of the RoP |
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Camus the Noble
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| Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Rainrir wrote: |
| I am not going to "add wings to a tiger". It seems that Camus got most of the things covered. |
Wings on a tiger? I've never heard that metaphor before... although a winged tiger would be quite a formidable beast. In fact, such an already powerful predator would probably lead to severe imbalance in an ecosystem if given such an advantage. So, it's probably best that there are no winged tigers.
Anyway, back to seriousness...
| Rune hunter wrote: |
| Sigh* did you even bother to read my post. What if they were in the process of writing down the recipe but were not able to finish becouse of shun min actions. It could be possible that they had only recently obtain that recipe and that is why they have not even begun to write it. There are a countless number of possibilities why they needed that recipe shun min stole. |
Of course I read your post. How did you arrive at the suspicion that I did not? I clearly read it, as I responded to the bulk of it. You posited several possible explanations as to how the recipe might not be written down in a fully understandable form. I explored the flaw in the most basic one, that the recipe was not written down at all, and said little else on the matter.
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| And why could the recipe be sacred unbelievable? In the history of man, men have consider many thing sacred. From animals, to golden bull statues. To even mean sticks of wood that people believe were part of the true cross. The list goes on and on of "unbelievable" things people consider sacred. |
But in the Suikoden world, there is NO indication that the recipe is in fact "mystical" or "magical," or even that anyone regards it as such. It simply is so tasty that it can supposedly influence people, who will change their behavior for its sake; in other words, there is a wholly naturalistic explanation for it.
The Suikoden world is one, as Rainrir said, of observable gods and magic. There is one almost certainly correct interpretation of the world's creation, which has persisted since the beginning of the Suikoden world. It is a well-known fact that other worlds exist, and that those worlds influence the Suikoden world.
Why did incorrect religions start in our world (I am operating under the quite logical assumption that there are/have been many false religions in the history of the world)? In all likelihood, it was to explain things that the ancients could not sufficiently explain through their limited knowledge of the natural world. In the Suikoden world, however, such a scenario is unlikely. The world is so inherently mystical and magical that the whole world, by and large, recognizes a single theory as to the nature of the universe.
So how would a "cult" spring up in reverence of an object that, in a world filled with clearly mystical and supernatural objects, exhibited no supernature? As I said, there is no indication in the game that the Black Dragon Group regarded the recipe as anything more than exceedingly and naturalistically tasty. If you are aware of such indication, please specifically reference it.
Also, Rune hunter, would you be so kind as to use quotes from now on? I hardly think that's an unreasonable demand; it makes your post far more understandable, and is not at all hard to accomplish.
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| Actual that is wrong. Ashtat was half inclined to accept ferid's offer. However she CHOSE not to leave her country. Ashtat choice would be meaningless if the she was only being manipulated by the true rune to stay. However it was not the true rune who decided for ashtat it was ashtat herself. The same goes for Sierra. She chose to kill Rean. No one was manipulating her. |
If I understand you correctly, you're saying that Arshtat and Sierra were not being influenced by the True Runes. How, then, do you justify using them as examples of mortals (here, the term is applied loosely, given Sierra's status) triumphing over the will of the True Runes?
If what you mean is that they chose to go against the will of the True Runes, you're going to have to show me one of the following: the Sun Rune wanted Arshtat to flee, or the Blue Moon Rune wanted Sierra to spare Rean. As far as I can see, there is no evidence to support either premise.
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| You cannot prove the true rune did not want to stay with Cray. |
Of course I can't prove it. We don't even get to see the scene! But if the rune did want to stay with Cray, why didn't it simply reattach itself to his head? It would make sense. Therefore, I conclude, quite reasonably in my opinion, that the rune did not want to remain with Cray, and, when Cray cut off his hand, the rune didn't bother reattaching.
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| Now the reason I said the RoP does not tranfer becouse Lazlo is alive is becouse you believe the RoP did not tranfer to Cray becouse the rune the did not want to. |
According to Suikosource, a True Rune "can abandon its bearer in favor of another." If the rune wanted to switch to Cray, it could have.
That said, I really do not remember bringing that issue up at all.
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| For one thing the runes does not go dormant(unless there are no host near by when its bearer dies) |
Justify this. Suikosource says:
| Suikosource wrote: |
| True Runes could be quite fickle, and could abandon its bearer in favor of another, and when its bearer dies, it tends to vanish and remain hidden (within the earth or at the bottom of the ocean) until it feels like reappearing. One person can not bear more than one True Rune, but it is said that a secret exists that allows one person to bear more than one True Rune. |
According to this, it is actually the norm for a True Rune to go dormant on the death of a bearer. It says nothing about whether or not there are other potential bearers nearby. It's certainly not a stretch to say that if a True Rune really wanted another bearer, the presence of others would be a nonissue. The rune could simply go somewhere else. Certainly you don't deny that it has that power.
| Rune hunter wrote: |
| Why would the rune use the spirit of the woman to save Lazlo? It could simply just not destroy Lazlo and allow brandue to turn to dust. This for me shows it was not the rune will that saved Lazlo |
Well, if the rune wanted to save Lazlo, it had to use some method to do so. Why not using the spirit of that woman. After all, the Rune of Punishment controls the cycle of punishment, atonement, and forgiveness; in a way, it represents grace. Perhaps it saw a sort of poetic beauty in using Lazlo's mother to spare him.
Of course, this is under the assumption that it was in fact the queen of Obel. It may well have been Leknaat, Zerase, or some other woman who was more than a "mere human" intervening. Unfortunately, I don't recall what exactly she looked like, so I can't delve into this any further.
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| The true rune of punishment is a True Rune that represents atonement and forgiveness and is always borne on the left hand of its host; this rune is a parasite that feeds off its host with fatal consequences: the rune has tremendous offensive capabilities; however, using them drains the bearer's life force, eventually to the extent that he or she turns to ash and their memories are locked away in the Rune. I read it in suikosource it at least show that Lazlo did not die becouse of the curse of the rune of punishment(if he was dead when he was at the boat). He had to turn to dust if he was killed the curse. |
When you use outside text, you should make it clear beforehand what you're referencing. Using quotes is a good way to do that.
There is one gigantic question that your argument begs. How did Lazlo survive? What caused him to not die? In the good ending, it is the power of the Stars of Destiny. That power, however, is not present in the bad ending. You can't discount the generally accepted scenario without producing a viable alternative. And why did the gamemakers choose to make that differences in the ending if he died in one but not the other?
Possibly (and keep in mind that this is all speculation), the previous owners turned to dust because they were the victims of a massive energy drain on the part of the Rune of Punishment. The fact that Lazlo survived so long, even after using the rune on a massive scale multiple times, shows that his strength was probably drained more gradually, not leading to the massive physical breakdown we saw with the others.
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| Your right it was the 108 collective will that change destiny. But it was Riou who chose who how destiny would bend. It was only Riou who decided nt to fight jowy in that sense it was only Riou who changed destiny. Think of the stars as a gun and Riou as the person holding that gun. If the gun was shot you do not say it was the guns "will" to be shot. It was only the person holding the gun who decided to shot the gun. |
Now I feel as though I'm the one whose posts haven't been read. That pretty much summed up my whole argument. It was the Stars of Destiny that changed fate, and Riou, as their leader, decided in what way it would be changed. Anyway, Rainrir covered this quite thoroughly, so I don't have much more more to say besides "Read my posts."
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| clearly there happens to be more unbelievable things in that game.(vampire mermaid etc) |
While you may see those things as unbelievable, they're not in the Suikoden world. They exist just as naturally as humans. A cooking cult, however, makes no sense in the context of a world in which the existing supernature is made excruciatingly clear.
| Masa wrote: |
| The recipe, however, has tons of significance. If I recall correctly, it had the power to influence people. |
Frankly, I think that the recipe's significance is probably overstated. Think about it: The Black Dragon Group has kept the Blue Moon Bird recipe a well-guarded secret. Surely there haven't been many test cases as to its influencing ability. Given that almost certain lack of clear evidence, I find it hard to believe that: 1) everyone in the world would find it delicious, and 2) everyone who did find it delicious would be so overwhelmed by its deliciousness that it would greatly influence their behavior. More likely, I think, that the legends of the Blue Moon Bird recipes are exaggerated stories dating from a long-ago time. Of course, that's just my suspicion.
| Rune hunter wrote: |
| (If Kyle knew about Jeane it would not be a stretch that ferid and ashtat knew about Jeane) |
Kyle knew about Jeane because of her beauty. He didn't know that she was so knowledgeable about runes. Still, this is irrelevant to the question of whether or not humans can go against the will of the runes.
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| This is relevant to what happened to both Sierra and Ashtat becouse even if both of there struggles against the true rune seem futile what ever they did would make a difference. |
See above. Prove to me how you know that the Sun Rune wanted Arshtat to stay and the Blue Moon Rune wanted Rean to live. If you can't, then Arshtat and Sierra are irrelevant to our discussion.
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| First on a slightly interesting side note. In the non-108 star ending( and even in the 108 ending) Riou could chose to not meet with Jowy and go to the war room and chose to become the president. If he did that he would not fight Jowy. There by changing destiny. According to suikosource the "Bright Shield and Black Sword runes, and bearers of these two runes are bound by the rune's power to fight against each other until only one survives to win the other component" By simply choosing not to meet with jowy he defies the will of the rune of begining who are bound to fight one another. And I could further speculate that Jowy might live if those 2 did not battle becouse when Riou meets Jowy he was perfectly fine at the time and that the only reason he dies is becouse he over exerts himself. |
But the fact is that that is not what actually happened in the Suikoden world. Regardless, that is in no way a lasting reprieve from the struggles of the runes versus each other. Is there any doubt that they will continue to fight, and that the battle will be played out at a later date? The only ending that actually goes against the runes' nature -- bringing them together and reconciling them without physically uniting them -- is the 108 Stars of Destiny-exclusive one.
Also, you do realize that Jowy wanted Riou to kill him at that last scene, right? He almost certainly would have sought Riou out and confronted him, eventually leading to his death or Riou's.
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| You cannot argue that it wanted to leave cray. |
I have, and I did. This is the most ignorant sentence I've seen in this topic. Please, use logic next time. I'm sorry if that seems harsh, but this is horribly juvenile, simply saying "You can't say that! You can't!"
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| As for Lazlo he did not turn to dust. Which happens to ALL rune bearers according to suikosource when they die becouse of the RoP |
The fact is that we have only been presented with a small sample of the total number of the bearers of the Rune of Punishment. We certainly can't decide with such emphasis that that happens to ALL rune bearers. This is addressed in more detail above. |
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Rune hunter
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| Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 3:20 am Post subject: |
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I based the observation because you did not respond why the other explanation was not valid. You simply said it was not written down. It could simple be that they just did not finish transcribing it. Or from what Masa said they may have deliberately not have written it down.
Actual there were indications it had mystical powers. It was said so by the various chefs that it could bring ultimate happiness. It’s just that no one can 100% prove that was what it could do. But people believe that was what it could do and that is probable enough reason for them to try and obtain it. The chefs however regard that recipe as having "mystical" properties.
Think of it this way the true runes where trying to influence events for there own purposes. But ashtat and sierra could choose not to be influence by the events. And actual do something to counter what would happen.
Why exactly must I prove the sun rune wanted Arshtat to flee and the blue moon rune wanted Sierra to spare Rean life? If I proved that I would only be proving that both of them did not have free will and that the true runes were only manipulating them. And i am clearly trying to prove otherwise.
Unfortunately for the RoP it MUST ALWAYS be borne on the left hand it could not simply move to the head. Even if it wanted to stay with Cray it could no longer do so.
Most true runes may act like that but the rune of punishment is different. The rune wants to drain the life of its host (until it reaches forgiveness) why would it suddenly abandon Lazlo? Without the 108 it still wanted to kill Lazlo. Why should the rune suddenly move to Cray when the rune was not finish with killing Lazlo and obtaining his memories?
Once again the rune of punishment is different. Without Lazlo it wanted to go on a murdering rampage. Leknaat even said that this was its will. I'm certain it did not want to go dormant. If Lazlo die at fort El Eal the rune would certainly move to a new host. Otherwise Leknaat was wrong in her prediction. But that seems unlikely. Its the norm for the rune of punishment to move to the closes possible host when its bearer dies.
There is a flaw in that. If the rune wanted to save Lazlo it would simply just not hit him with its energy. Why does it need the woman help? I dont think the rune cares for poetic beauty.
We can safely assume it was not Leknaat she does not interfere with the true runes. And it’s most certainly was not ZERASE!!! She barely even wanted to help the prince. And unless the developers were dumb enough to include a nameless woman who had no connection to the story we can safely assume it was the queen of obel.
That is also simple to answer. If the 108 did not save him it could possible be the queen who saves him.
Unfortunely your logic seems flawed. The turning to dust is part of the curse. Granted Lazlo may have been stronger but it seems farfetched that when most of the other bearers dies of only one massive use of the rune that Lazlo should not turn to dust considering he used the rune multiple times on a massive scale.
That is the point it is only one persons will channeling all that energy. It was only Riou himself who wanted to save Jowy he just used the strength of the 108 to do it. None of the 108(with the possible exeption of Nanami and shu) knew about Jowy condition and its even possible they did not care what would happen to him. How can you argue that it was the 108 will to save Jowy? It was only there strength that Riou used to save Jowy. It was not there collective will.
And that is the point. While it is YOU who believe that a cooking cult its too implausible to exist in the suikoden world it does exist in it along with all the other implausible things in that world. And you cannot say to me that that recipe does not have "mystical", you cannot prove that. However i can prove the chefs of that world believed it has such abilities.
It may be overstated but you cannot prove that it is being overstated. And exactly why has it not been tested? Obviously they must have tested it at least once to see if its really has that ability. I clearly cannot seen how you can argue its effects are being over hyped because you cannot conclusively say so.
Surely even Ferid must have know about Jeane. She was the talk of the town. And Godwin knew Jeane was a great rune mistress. Why is it such a stretch ferid did not also know this? Unless of couse Ferid and Arshtat had such crappy intelligence gathering they could not figure out there was a powerful rune mistress that could have help them. It relevant because Jeane might have help Arshtat overcome the runes power. In the same way the Aeons help Yuna overcome Sin.
See my reasoning above. I think you misunderstand my post.
But the fact remains it is what COULD have happened. Had Riou chosen otherwise. Still had Riou chosen not to confront Jowy it would have gone against the wishes of the true rune which is to fight one another. It would ultimately be Riou choice.
And how exactly was Jowy going to seek Riou out. He was would become the president of Jowston. And Jowy would be one of the most wanted man in the city states. Its not like he will waltz over to Riou and demand a duel if he did that im sure the people near Riou would lynch Jowy.
How exactly did you prove that it wanted to leave Cray? You yourself said you couldn’t prove it. Let me rephrase my statement because you seem to misunderstand it. You cannot CONCLUSIVELY argue that it(the rune of punishment) wanted to leave Cray. Btw do not resort to name-calling. You do not call someone "juvenile" when you’re debating a topic
It is clearly stated by Suikosource ALL rune bearer turn to dust and unless there info is wrong i believe them to be credible sources.
NOTE: I dont really know how to quote I always seem to make mistakes when I quote . If you can teach me i will gladly use quotes. |
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Flamo Bringer
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| Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 8:35 am Post subject: |
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Wow, you guys made me can't read the posts.... :?
well, anyway...............................................
i'd say the most tragic love story in Suikoden is...........
Viktor-Annabelle and Flik-Odessa...
considering that their true loves died because of wars happening.... :| |
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Eden
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| Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 9:22 am Post subject: |
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I am not sure whether it's the most tragic love story, but it is certainly very touching to see Viktor and Annabelle. I liked to see him acting very insecure and out of his normal behaviour. When he talks about the wine and when he asks her if she and he could have been... but no, she is a lady and he... *handkerchief to the wet eyes* Sorry, I think this is very touching and I felt Viktor was left burned out after her death, because completely different from my thoughts he wasn't eager to kill the murderer, but was left with a great sadness instead. At least it's the way I see the things...
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| Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 9:26 am Post subject: |
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| I think victor was still heartbroken about what happend to Maria. Maybe he could not move on. |
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