| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Zeik Tuvai
Aura of the Wolf
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Post Count: 902
Location: Schiavik
12319 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points
|
 Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 5:17 pm Post subject: |
  |
|
| Yvl wrote: |
| In any case, ANYONE can be a hero (except Thomas, because I said so!) so wouldnt that make the entire article... pointless? |
Not pointless, no. An editorial is an opinion, which is what this is. You can argue against an opinion, but I think arguing opinions if far more pointless then just having your own. They aren't really based on facts so much as the person. I liked the editorial myself, I found it rather refreashing in comparrison to the constant, normal views of a hero.
I remember there were some constants in what makes a hero a hero... I'd have to ask my instructor again, though. That was almost a year ago. If this thread is still alive and kicking (which I hope it is) by the end of Tuesday, I'll post those constants here.
_________________
Those who stray from the path of justice,
Are those who have no courage...
But under the wing of a strong leader,
Cowardice cannot survive. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Sierra Mikain
Blue Moon
Joined: 20 Jan 2005
Post Count: 4262
Location: Trista Duon
19500 Potch
0 Soldiers
666 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 5:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I'd like to see that even if the thread isn't active still.
_________________
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Camus the Noble
Les Renés
Joined: 24 Sep 2005
Post Count: 1881
Location: Vinay Del Zexay
1056014 Potch
224 Soldiers
0 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 6:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| UberYuber wrote: |
| Can it be proven that he didn't? All you have is an opinion. As do all of your "sources." A contradicting opinion is not wrong. |
But my opinion is the one consistent with every piece of evidence presented in the Suikoden series.
Regardless, we're simply repeating ourselves now. This discussion is going nowhere. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Equus
Sindarin Speed Bumps of Rage
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
Post Count: 1316
Location: Nordes Mont
197132 Potch
0 Soldiers
2993 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 6:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Mitchell wrote: |
| I remember there were some constants in what makes a hero a hero... I'd have to ask my instructor again, though. That was almost a year ago. If this thread is still alive and kicking (which I hope it is) by the end of Tuesday, I'll post those constants here. |
Are you talking about heroic qualities in literature? There are certain constants to, say, a "tragic hero" if you're looking at classical literature, but I think most of that is not really considered to be "constants" from a modern point of view.
All that's really being explored is a point of view. If I really wanted to, I could try to make the argument that viewing Luca Blight solely through the lens of a Judeo-Christian morality is faulty...or I could just argue about Judeo-Christian morality and how it's biased and ethnocentric. But then I'd probably have religious conservatives out to get me and I'd never be elected president, which would shoot down any dreams of world domination.
From what I see, the piece is a work that reflects the idea of deconstruction, which is a theory in literary criticism. It doesn't really rely on the idea that truth is "consistent", it's meant to challenge our ideas. Every "truth" that we espouse is completely relative to other ideas, any and all of which can be examined, challenged, and most likely debunked. Literary criticism is meant to give you a different lens with which to view something, and isn't necessarilly meant to be taken as canon.
_________________
I can run faster scared than you can mad. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tokuro
White Storms
Joined: 05 May 2006
Post Count: 1292
Location: Malinsulo
22016 Potch
0 Soldiers
7777 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 7:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
You see is obvious to everyone that a hero is a man (or womam) of principles.
But everyone have different principles, coming from different creation and experiences. In my case I have a deep respect for Riou way to be (quiet, honest and using tonfas). All that I am saying is that no characters in suikoden games actually liked or even showed simpathy for Luca .That is what in my opinion makes him not a human (Luc or Windy have both loved ones, wich I believe it serves to show their humanity) One can indeed respect the way he handles himself in battle or how he make the country grows or even how intimidating he can be. But seriously, one can kill the way he did not enjoining it ? I have my doubts... but if you say that a guy that does what he does for wathever the means is a hero... you got your principles and I got mines rigth? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Hibicus
Lunar Edict
Joined: 05 May 2006
Post Count: 52
Location: Retto
0 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 8:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Well, I was gonna say a lot more, but there's really no point in arguing it now. Given the intention of the piece, I suppose the factual stuff can be overlooked. You may want to include your intentions in the article itself, though... it certainly led to a lot of misconception.
| UberYuber wrote: |
Luca never killed babies to my knowledge.
:mrgreen: If he did, I'm sure he had a good reason. :mrgreen: |
Uh, well... he did try to kill Pilika (who is still sort of a baby... or close), and after Pohl died he presumably didn't have anyone left to perform for. (I don't think he saw Riou and Jowy until they stepped in) Plus he did torch that village said to be full of children.
| UberYuber wrote: |
| Now that's I've spoken... let me just say once Luca takes his armor off at night, he's a cuddly ball of Highland cuteness. Like Axiose, but with less fur. That makes him a hero to us all. |
OhGodOhGodKillItWithFire. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Schala-Kid
Sol Incorruptible
Joined: 02 Jun 2004
Post Count: 1280
Location: Matilda
68845 Potch
100 Soldiers
0 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 9:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
per·spec·tive ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pr-spktv)
n.
A view or vista.
A mental view or outlook: "It is useful occasionally to look at the past to gain a perspective on the present" (Fabian Linden).
The appearance of objects in depth as perceived by normal binocular vision.
The relationship of aspects of a subject to each other and to a whole: a perspective of history; a need to view the problem in the proper perspective.
Subjective evaluation of relative significance; a point of view: the perspective of the displaced homemaker.
The ability to perceive things in their actual interrelations or comparative importance: tried to keep my perspective throughout the crisis.
The technique of representing three-dimensional objects and depth relationships on a two-dimensional surface.
adj.
Of, relating to, seen, or represented in perspective.
okay. try to see things in perspective! another point of view isn't automatically wrong. while generally i disagree with the article, it's nice to see how other's can have a different interpretation to Luca. i found it refreshing.
and wasn't pilka crying when luca was going to kill her? she was being annoying so that's the justification (although most people would at most just imagine killing a crying child, Luca actually did it. that takes courage! he's heroic in that sense ;)) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sierra Mikain
Blue Moon
Joined: 20 Jan 2005
Post Count: 4262
Location: Trista Duon
19500 Potch
0 Soldiers
666 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 9:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Hell yes someone needed to kill that kid. Instead he simply shut her up. Good man. He killed Pohl too and that was something to clap about.
| Hibicus wrote: |
Uh, well... he did try to kill Pilika (who is still sort of a baby... or close), and after Pohl died he presumably didn't have anyone left to perform for. (I don't think he saw Riou and Jowy until they stepped in) Plus he did torch that village said to be full of children. |
Children and babies are not the same thing. Also, you can't believe that any children were killed unless you saw it. Perhaps the kids were let go. It's not shown, it's not known. If they did escape it wouldn't be important to let the player know this. The game is from a Jowstonian point of view and thus you're led to hate Luca whenever possible.
There were people that rebuilt Ryube too. Sometime before you go to get Tomo from Tsai's shack the town fills back up with 4 people. Roughly 1/3 the population it had earlier. There's no children there then, but all the people speak of the town as if they lived there before. Could it be that Luca didn't really massacre all of them as you're originally led to believe?
He also didn't kill the dog in Toto. However, the dog is very unfriendly as he says "grrrr....." when I talk to him.
I need another drink... wooh.
| Puddin wrote: |
From what I see, the piece is a work that reflects the idea of deconstruction, which is a theory in literary criticism. It doesn't really rely on the idea that truth is "consistent", it's meant to challenge our ideas. Every "truth" that we espouse is completely relative to other ideas, any and all of which can be examined, challenged, and most likely debunked. Literary criticism is meant to give you a different lens with which to view something, and isn't necessarilly meant to be taken as canon.
|
Oh, absolutely.
I wasn't hoping that people were dumb enough to read it and simply change their minds about Luca. I knew people would disagree with my opinion and that's the point. Just that hopefully they'd open their minds, look past the content, and observe the possibility of someone being something they don't seem from a different perspective.
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Hibicus
Lunar Edict
Joined: 05 May 2006
Post Count: 52
Location: Retto
0 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 9:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| UberYuber wrote: |
Children and babies are not the same thing. Also, you can't believe that any children were killed unless you saw it. Perhaps the kids were let go. It's not shown, it's not known. If they did escape it wouldn't be important to let the player know this. The game is from a Jowstonian point of view and thus you're led to hate Luca whenever possible.
There were people that rebuilt Ryube too. Sometime before you go to get Tomo from Tsai's shack the town fills back up with 4 people. Roughly 1/3 the population it had earlier. There's no children there then, but all the people speak of the town as if they lived there before. Could it be that Luca didn't really massacre all of them as you're originally led to believe?
He also didn't kill the dog in Toto. However, the dog is very unfriendly as he says "grrrr....." when I talk to him.
I need another drink... wooh. |
Well yeah, you sort of can believe it because there weren't children everywhere. If they were let go, then where did they all end up at? If benevolent 'ol Highland had a principle of not killing children, I think it would have been mentioned at least once. And of course just because we don't see babies in-game doesn't mean Jowston doesn't have any babies. Anyway, if he was willing to kill Pilika, however annoying her broken English may have been, I don't see why he would stop there.
But of course there're bound to be some survivors, either from people who fled, or somehow managed to hide, or simply weren't there at the time. Given that the amount of people we see in-game merely represents a much larger population, it's difficult to imagine a large army able to account for every single member of the village.
I get what you're saying. Really I do. But, give us a little credit. No more drinks for you, good sir. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Starslasher
Chunks of Chaco-late.
Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Post Count: 6482
Location: Dunan Delta
1177790 Potch
300 Soldiers
35 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Sat May 06, 2006 4:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
well, i've given it a read. It was interesting, but unfortunately not that convincing to me.
One thing that bugged me was this line:
| UberYuber in the Article wrote: |
| For example, a terrorist is not seen as a hero, but by another muslim extremist perhaps a different opinion is taken. |
I know that i'm picking on a very minor detail, but i found it a bit offensive. It's suggesting two things. One, It's promoting the stereotypical view that all terrorists are muslims. Oob seem to not have the IRA, Tim McVeigh and the Basque separatists in mind. Two, why would a muslim extremist care for the Oklahoma City bombing, or attacks done in other parts of the world, like Egypt?
Okay, that aside, i wondered why Oob didn't touch upon the Beast Rune. I thought that it played a major part in the war against Jowston, no matter what side you were on, since it's death signalled the end of the war i.e. it was the final boss in Suikoden II.
_________________
Guardian of Greenhill & Devoted Protector of Oulan
Bork! Bork! Bork! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sierra Mikain
Blue Moon
Joined: 20 Jan 2005
Post Count: 4262
Location: Trista Duon
19500 Potch
0 Soldiers
666 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Sat May 06, 2006 9:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
I know that i'm picking on a very minor detail, but i found it a bit offensive. It's suggesting two things. One, It's promoting the stereotypical view that all terrorists are muslims.
|
I'm sorry you're offended, but what I said in no way implied that all terrorists are muslims or that all radical muslims are terrorists. It also didn't imply that all terrorists are fond of all terror activities. That sentence uses the words "For example" and "perhaps" and thus is meant for you to see possibility and that's all it is.
Please don't assume that I'm ignorant or that my words had any ill intent. And if you don't assume, then you shouldn't be offended.
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Rainrir
Landsknecht
Joined: 06 May 2006
Post Count: 251
Location: Negative Reality
0 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Sat May 06, 2006 3:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
First Post. Please don't hurt me.
| Quote: |
Children and babies are not the same thing. Also, you can't believe that any children were killed unless you saw it. Perhaps the kids were let go. It's not shown, it's not known. If they did escape it wouldn't be important to let the player know this. The game is from a Jowstonian point of view and thus you're led to hate Luca whenever possible.
|
Hmmm....babies and children are not the same thing. TECHNICALLY. However, I am willing to bet that killing children is considered as much of an atrocity as infanticide.
In the strictest sense of the word, S2 isn't from a Jowstonian point of view but rather Riou's point of view. Riou might be pro-Jowston later in the game; However, at that point of time when Riou saw the mess at Ryube he and Jowy are mostly drifters with no idea where to go next.
In any case, I have a vague memory of Hanna saying something about children being killed and hopw she is powerless to protect them when you recruit her at Toto. That should imply that the highlanders DID kill SOME children.
| Quote: |
There were people that rebuilt Ryube too. Sometime before you go to get Tomo from Tsai's shack the town fills back up with 4 people. Roughly 1/3 the population it had earlier. There's no children there then, but all the people speak of the town as if they lived there before. Could it be that Luca didn't really massacre all of them as you're originally led to believe?
|
You know most normal people tend to RUN AWAY from the general direction danger will come from. Those people at Ryube/Toto probably ran before the battle started or shortly after the battle started and return after the coast is clear to rebuild?
Of course, Luca didn't massacre ALLl the people in Toto, because most people would have at least TRY to escape and some will have managed to. What I AM sure is that Luca most likely killed ever person that he manages to CATCH.
Its not wise to judge how many people are killed OR the population size/makeup of a town from in-game sprites....its just..wrong...because you don't expect the capital of Toran to have onlt <20 inhabitants because in game sprites SAY SO. Or that Toto has no children because there isn't a CHILD NPC there.
| Quote: |
I wasn't hoping that people were dumb enough to read it and simply change their minds about Luca. I knew people would disagree with my opinion and that's the point. Just that hopefully they'd open their minds, look past the content, and observe the possibility of someone being something they don't seem from a different perspective.
|
Yes. Its your opinion and I respect that (However, I really do not believe all opinions are right...there are some obviouslyly wrong opinions out there...). The thing here is that if you want to open their minds with an unconventional opinion you have to at least have SOME substantial points to back it up. People do not open their minds to so-called flawed opinion.
Unfortunately, LOOKING past the content and then assuming the possibility that a character might be something else other than what is presented makes little sense to me. Because....there is nothing else PAST the content, if the content never allude to a possiblity I can assure you there is NONE.
Example (silly and bad one)
Hero5 (aka Faroush) is a GIRL.
WHAT? The game and auxillery material says not? BUT THAT's MY OPINION!!!! I THINK Hero5 in a girl! I can prove it! Look at those pretty eyes. Look at that Flawless Skin! Damn, look at those SEX-Y LEGS! OMG He has to be a girl! HE LOOKS LIKE A GIRL TO ME.(<---Important Point)
Not too convincing..right? Granted your arguement isn't as bad as this one.
I know you are trying to say that some issues can be looked at from different perspectives, but it simply does not apply to Luca Blight. The game gives you slightly more perspctive of what is going on then JUST Riou's POV alone and IF the script writers wanted us to "see" Luca in a different light or that he displays whatever you wrote they will have ADDED such content into the game, but they did not.
The fact that you have the game and 7 years worth of additional material from outside the game all saying nothing and did not even HINT that Luca has a different side or a higher motive OTHER then being a complete monester overturns the arguements completely. You cannot open people's mind with flawed opinions (like my exmaple) just like you cannot cut through a wooden block with a completely blunt saw. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Calvin
Legions of Zontar-Killers
Joined: 19 Jun 2004
Post Count: 2445
Location: Blight's Bay
817540 Potch
25 Soldiers
0 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Sat May 06, 2006 3:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Agares Blight, in an act that is most certainly cowardice and worthless, leaves the scene with his own life to send fighters to get back what is rightfully his instead of facing whatever odds presented for the ones he loved |
A king's job is to rule his Kingdom. If Agares had died, who would have ruled? Luca was too young at that time. Everyone calls him a coward, however as far as I can tell he was an honorable King who ruled very practically. I would hardly call King Agares a coward, and surely wouldn't present it as a "hard fact."
| Quote: |
| Luca saw weakness in his country and growing strength in Jowston. He knew that in the past, Highland should've been able to destroy her neighbor but the men simply couldn't do it... or simply wouldn't do it...In order to protect his motherland, Luca was going to have to deal with the first problem: Morale. |
Maybe Luca should have paid more attention in history. Seems to me that the only time Jowston ever presented a formidable military front was when they were invaded by an outside force, causing them to unite against a common enemy. During the Great War, it wasn't until Highland had cut a great swath through Jowston that the country finally united behind a common leader (Genkaku) and beat them back. During the Gate Rune War, Jowston tried to take advantage of the civil war in the Scarlet Moon empire, however internal discord in Jowston caused them to be pushed back into their own territory (South Window pulled its troops out and left Tinto to fend for themselves).
Prior to the events of Suikoden II, Jowston and Highland had also signed a peace agreement. In Suikoden II, the City States were fractured and uncooperative with each other. It wasn't until Highland marched on Muse that Jowston finally decided to mobilize. And even then, Matilda pulled its troops in the midst of the battle for the capital city of Jowston! It was obvious to me that Highland presented a minimal military threat that could be beaten back quickly and efficiently by a superior Highland military.
Luca didn't have to "protect his motherland"by invading Jowston. Jowston already posed almost no threat. You may call that being heroic, but I call it being crazy and delusional.
| Quote: |
| The attack on the Unicorn Brigade was not only justified, but rational. Perhaps it was the only way to get the nation grown weak under his father's rule to regain their pride as Highlanders and motivate them to gain what should've been theirs all along. |
Firstly, as I've stated before Highland was not weak. It was much stronger than Jowston, which was plainly obvious. Secondly, decieving your own population by murdering your nations youngest and brightest troops is not only completely monstrous, but also stupid in the long term. If Luca was such a hero, why did he have to convince his people to go to war by pinning something on Jowston? Heros are born out of conflict--they don't create it.
| Quote: |
| The next problem Luca had to deal with was the enemy's perception of their foes. It's been said throughout history, and it'll be true until the end of time... the single most overwhelming emotion a human can experience is fear. The best leaders rule with fear and the best armies are feared by their foes. Luca wanted every Jowstonian to know how ruthless and demonic he was. He needed them to suffer, he needed them to die, and he needed witnesses. |
Stalin ruled with fear. So did Mussolini, who was killed and dragged through the streets of by his own countrymen. I don't think anyone would mistake those people for heros. People who rule with fear are not viewed as heros. Furthermore, Luca wasn't trying to "rule" Jowston. He was trying to destroy it. How else can you explain the massacre at Muse? Did he kill those thousands of people so they would be afraid of him? I think not. Its more likely he did it to "get back" at them for what happened to Luca's mother.
Again, he's insane.
| Quote: |
| If you notice, at each attack on a city... whether it was Ryube, the Mercenary Fortress, or Toto... there were always witnesses that were allowed to escape to tell the horrible story to their countrymen. |
I'm a firm believer that more often than not the simple answer is often the correct one. The simple answer here would be that Luca was careless, and was simply trying to kill the people he saw. Its certainly more likely that some people simply escaped into the woods, especially in Ryube's case.
| Quote: |
| The third problem was the festering virus within his kingdom preventing it from ever accomplishing what it could. Was it even fathomable that a man that ran from his own wife's raping could lead a country to victory in war? Would anyone who knew of the previous tragedy want to fight for such a coward? Would he simply cower and run tuck-tailed at the first sign of a battle? Luca wasn't sure of any of these, neither was anyone else in the nation. Luca was always looking for a way to rid the nation of his father, the worst thing that ever happened to it. And at any cost, he knew what he had to do. With Agares gone, Luca could rule his own people with fear which made it easier to focus on the battleground. |
You've succeded at giving Luca's opinion on the events, which just so happen to be the opinions of a madman. The truth of the matter is that Agares was a good King, and during his rule Highland was mostly at peace.
| Quote: |
| In conclusion, Luca was a man that knew how to rule. He was feared and his methods can easily be seen as questionable or garish, but Luca was a man who fought for reasons bigger than himself. He fought for the wronged people of his nation and for his mother without a thought about his own safety. (see final event) He was a man that designed all his methods around achieving what he wanted. Luca quite possibly was the greatest man ever to exist in Suikoworld, but he most definitely was a hero. |
Yes, Luca was such a good ruler that he beheaded one general for failing against a superior strategist(Solon Jhee), another General defected(Kiba Windamier), 2 more worked against him behind the scenes (Seed and Culgan), and the last one betrayed him (Jowy). He's such a hero that he was abandoned by his own countrymen.
The only person that thought Luca was heroic was Luca himself. Everyone else thought he was crazy. He was the strongest man to exist, but not the greatest. I think you you mistake blind bloodlust for strength in this article.
_________________
I changed the number on my phone so you can't call me up at home, and you can't say those
things to me, that make me fall down on my knees.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tokuro
White Storms
Joined: 05 May 2006
Post Count: 1292
Location: Malinsulo
22016 Potch
0 Soldiers
7777 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Sat May 06, 2006 4:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I actually believe that Agares was a coward (running and letting his children and wife... come on) but he was not a bad king . And then it was sayed that Jowston was getting stronger than Highland , but how is it posible that the hoghland was so "weak" that they took Muse down in a few months ?(I think it is months) . I also don't think Luca was a good leader because if what he wanted was to make Highland prosperous he could simply put king Agares down (if he was a bad king) or even talking privately with each of the generals improving the army potencial.
There was way more solutions than simply attack and slaugther everyone... That is if Luca is this nice guy wanting his kingdom to survive. It was said that a hero is one who think not in individual but in everyone. How can Luca think in anyone but himself waging a war to "purge" Jowston? Gime a break he was indeed an insane fool guy . One more think a good leader always know where and what are his subordinades doing. Being such a smart ass cound't make he see that he was going to be ambushed ? Or he was really a guy that trust his companions? I don't think so.... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Starslasher
Chunks of Chaco-late.
Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Post Count: 6482
Location: Dunan Delta
1177790 Potch
300 Soldiers
35 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Sun May 07, 2006 12:17 am Post subject: |
|
|
| UberYuber wrote: |
| Quote: |
I know that i'm picking on a very minor detail, but i found it a bit offensive. It's suggesting two things. One, It's promoting the stereotypical view that all terrorists are muslims.
|
I'm sorry you're offended, but what I said in no way implied that all terrorists are muslims or that all radical muslims are terrorists. It also didn't imply that all terrorists are fond of all terror activities. That sentence uses the words "For example" and "perhaps" and thus is meant for you to see possibility and that's all it is.
Please don't assume that I'm ignorant or that my words had any ill intent. And if you don't assume, then you shouldn't be offended. |
No worries Oob. I was sure that it wasn't your intention to offend.
_________________
Guardian of Greenhill & Devoted Protector of Oulan
Bork! Bork! Bork! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
