| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Arcana
The Engineers
Joined: 25 Jan 2005
Post Count: 2035
Location: Lion's Maw
190546 Potch
200 Soldiers
0 Nation Points
|
 Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 1:34 am Post subject: |
  |
|
Maybe I'm a member of Al Queda. :D
The last statement takes into account what people know about the Al Queda terror network, which, among other things, is known to be fanatical to their cause. If their cause is to promote Islam and to destroy the west, there is nothing to be gained by attacking other Al Queda members for political reasons. The only reason I could see it occuring is if there's some kind of internal struggle for power.
Those who are fanatical enough to focus all of their efforts against the west are hardly not going to attack those they consider brothers (other Al Queda members).
_________________
Woo, 2000 posts as of Tuesday, 2007 August 28. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Sophita
The Wee Kitty Grand Duke Defense Brigade
Joined: 13 May 2004
Post Count: 4744
Location: Reina Mia
498078 Potch
1330 Soldiers
2725 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 1:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
Not to mention the Unicorn Brigade was comprised of children - inexperienced trainees at best. Hardly a threat to the crown. To call it justified turns my stomach inside out. It wasn't justified. It was a massacre; Luca butchered his own recruits in order to gain support for a war. A war, mind you, that seems primarily to be to sate his bloodlust - not to gain territory for Highland. Luca seems much more focused on burning and murdering everything in his path, than he is interested in acquiring land for Highland - if anything, he's hurting future Highland land by razing everything to the ground. He's not discriminate in his targets, either; he pretty much wants to slash-and-burn everything.
I'm with John on this one, pretty much; I have to say I just don't think Agares was a coward. The natural response for any person who has a beloved spouse in the situation Sara was in is probably to rush to their aid. However, Agares isn't just any person; he's the King, and as such, is responsible for all the people in his kingdom. For him to go charging after the bandits would be foolish and selfish; he would be putting the entire Kingdom below the expense of one person - even if she was a beloved person. After all, Luca was just a child at the time, and if Agares died and he took the crown, there's no way he could govern competantly. At best, he'd be used as a puppet-King while advisors in the background ruled. At worse, he'd be assasinated early on so that someone else could take the crown. Agares took the hard road and did what was right for Highland - albeit, at the cost of not doing right by Sara. I really can't find such action cowardly. (But I don't think cowardice can ever be a hard fact, either; it's a very subjective word.)
That said, editorials are meant to voice an opinion, and while I can't agree with Uberyuber, I'll agree with his right to say it. I think it's a better fit for editorials (which are opinions first and foremost) than speculation, which, IMO, seems to have a quality of objectiveness about it.
_________________
 SCII month continues! DueFiumi.com
| John Layfield wrote: |
| But bubbles... children love bubbles! XD |
Last edited by Sophita on Fri May 05, 2006 1:52 am; edited 3 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zeik Tuvai
Aura of the Wolf
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Post Count: 902
Location: Schiavik
12319 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 1:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Arcana wrote: |
| Maybe I'm a member of Al Queda. |
This... Has actually crossed my mind a few times now... Lol
| Sophita wrote: |
| That said, editorials are meant to voice an opinion, and while I can't agree with Uberyuber, I'll agree with his right to say it. I think it's a better fit for editorials (which are opinions first and foremost) than speculation, which, IMO, seems to have a quality of objectiveness about it. |
Rock on, babe!
| Peter Griffin wrote: |
| Though I may not agree with what you say, I'll protect to the death your right to say it. |
Rock on, Sophita! Rock on!
_________________
Those who stray from the path of justice,
Are those who have no courage...
But under the wing of a strong leader,
Cowardice cannot survive. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Eden
Private Godwin Army
Joined: 17 Feb 2006
Post Count: 6224
Location: Doraat
564676 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 4:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
Even if an action is evil, the doer isn't necessary equally evil. We don't know the inner aspects of Luca, his wishes and dreams. The way it's done here is a legitimate way, because the writer tries to convince other people.
Maybe Luca saw the world like Leon for example or Shu who both knew that the fight would go on as long as both nations exist. Even Jowy seemed to know this.
It isn't impossible that Luca thought the only way to prevent another war is to damage the other nation as hard as possible, causing as mich deaths and burning villages as possible. We see that Jowston has chosen asnother way and it came to a rebellion... Maybe Luca wasn't the maniac he wanted to see other people in him or at least not completely. All we have as clues are things he said and did in front of other persons and the thoughts those persons have about him.
_________________
The Fool |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Arcana
The Engineers
Joined: 25 Jan 2005
Post Count: 2035
Location: Lion's Maw
190546 Potch
200 Soldiers
0 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 5:58 am Post subject: |
|
|
If Luca presented himself as a serious leader who reiterated his love for his country Highland, and was convinced that he was doing it to make sure that no one would ever have to suffer what his mother suffered, and that his world was going to be a great, bold, one, sure, then one might be able to make the case that Blight's intentions were noble.
Unfortunately, he's presented as a sadistic, bloodthirsty maniac who cackles madly during battles and calls his opponents pigs who are to be sent to slaughter. I'm sure that you could write a fanfiction that presents Luca's sensitive side, but based on the presentation that we see in the video game, there's very little evidence that shows, or even suggests, that Luca's intentions were noble.
| Mitchell wrote: |
| Peter Griffin wrote: |
| Though I may not agree with what you say, I'll protect to the death your right to say it. |
Rock on, Sophita! Rock on! |
Why'd you attribute that quote to Peter Griffin? I am wondering.
_________________
Woo, 2000 posts as of Tuesday, 2007 August 28. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Hibicus
Lunar Edict
Joined: 05 May 2006
Post Count: 52
Location: Retto
0 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 7:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
Before I start, I'd like to say that, like the above poster, while I don't agree with the editorial itself, I do agree with the author's right to voice their opinion. With that out of the way...
It's true that at least some of Luca Blight's actions could be considered brilliant; despite being an undeniable monster, even Hitler was a great leader in the sense that he rallied his people, waged many successful military campaigns, and went on to have several honorable mentions in Indiana Jones films and certain low-budget anime.
The problem I'm having with this particular piece is that there really isn't any proof regarding the claims of Luca's "heroic" ambitions, or even much of what's stated about his character overall.
For starters, the need for a war in the first place is questionable. The Jowston we're introduced to is a loose organization of city-states that can't seem to agree on anything. Even their "capital" falls with minimal resistance. From the onset of the war, none of the city-states pose any significant threat, and it isn't until the rise of the hero and his army (which is a direct response to Luca's bloodthirsty rampage) that Highland suffers any form of defeat.
It's also far easier to argue that Luca's insanity was just that - insanity, as opposed to some fear tactic or hidden agenda. He didn't mock and torture people because he wanted to accomplish something, because it simply isn't necessary. Case in point, the Mongols were quite feared for their policy of destroying villages and killing off the innocent whenever they incurred resistance. Their fear tactics aided them quite well - but I doubt they stood out in the fields cackling to themselves. Swift, ruthless action surely speaks stronger than "Die, pig!", and hoping that enough survivors make it out to spread the word. (Didn't he directly order his men not to leave survivors anyway?)
Furthermore, saying he loved Jillia (not Julia... I think), while possible, seems a bit of a stretch. After all, even she admits that she is powerless to stop him. If he held any form of emotion for her (aside from a resemblance), she would at least have some influence over his actions... yes?
At any rate, Luca truly seemed to be enjoying himself with all that killing. Even when no one was around, no one was left to perform for, he was still cackling and attempting to kill small children. From a developer perspective, my take is that the passion, the hatred behind his actions was definitive of the character, not to mention symbolic of the Beast Rune aspects. Suiko II has more than its fair share of calculating mindsets.
Finally, Jowy didn't make Luca's work in vain - he, along with Culgan and Seed (who did pledge their loyalty to him afterall), realized that Luca was destroying BOTH countries in the process of his warmongering. Of course, by the time Luca was out of the picture there was little choice but to press on. But at least Jowy was acting on behalf of the greater good, and in the end willing to die as the symbolic "evil" to Riou's "good". That seems far more heroic than killing babies any day of the week.
...With that out of the way, I must say the editorial was very well written. The author conveyed his point strongly, and even stirred up enough in myself to bother registering.
I hope to see more from this author, if only to make more long-winded posts that take way too much effort from my lazy ass. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Vextor
Joined: 09 Mar 2004
Post Count: 12086
Location: Hell
11331071 Potch
23689 Soldiers
160 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 7:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Well well, I'm glad somebody joined the forum because of it! That's why I bother to add a link to each article! I hope you stay! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sierra Mikain
Blue Moon
Joined: 20 Jan 2005
Post Count: 4262
Location: Trista Duon
19500 Potch
0 Soldiers
666 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 10:12 am Post subject: |
|
|
Well thanks to sars for telling me he posted that article last nite and that there was also a thread because I wouldn't have ever seen the discussion in here.
First off, that thing was written in haste and was a post not something I submitted to sars, so typos are in there that made a few people misunderstand what I was trying to say. It's supposed to be on the edge and simply make you see a different side of things that could be possible and are possible depending on an individuals point of view. Things I claimed as facts such as Agared being a coward are most definitely true from one point of view, but possibly not from another. The point is that when you have that certain point of view, the rest becomes true. Certain points are arguable, but that's the point of it all.
| Camus wrote: |
Luca wasn't a Saint, but he was a hero.
...
Luca quite possibly was the greatest man ever to exist in Suikoworld, but he most definitely was a hero.
The first sentence acknowledges that Luca had shortcomings, while the second says that he may have been the "greatest man ever to exist." Rather inconsistent, don't you think?
|
Inconsistent? I don't follow. The greatest man to ever exist will have faults bud. I don't live in a dreamworld.
| Quote: |
This is debatable. It could be argued that firefighters and police chose those occupations so that they could have the opportunity to help as many people as possible, making them heroes. Or it could be argued that judging all police or firefighters as either "heroes" or "not heroes" is ludicrous. I'm not saying that any of these are right, just that such dogmatic, simplisitc statements on the nature of heroism are somewhat myopic.
|
Debatable? Besides the fact that all editorials are debateable because they're simply opinions, couldn't you tell that paragraph entry was only my opinion? Could you not see the world "I" used? *dies*
In the United States, I think all too often these people are branded heroes the day they sign up for the job, especially firefighters. As I said though, I never claimed none of them are heroes and that their actions are never heroic, just that having a certain profession doesn't suddenly grant you character qualities. Collecting a 75k paycheck for being a firefighter where once a month you have activity that's considered harzardous makes you lucky and that's all. Anything that they do beyond that could make them a hero, but the profession is not enough.
| Quote: |
Again, dogma rears its ugly head. Do we really know enough about that incident to judge Agares' actions? What if his staying there would have resulted in his death? If he had died there, then it's quite possible that none of the captives would have ever been rescued. I don't know enough about the incident to judge Agares; if UberYuber did, he should have included the information in the editorial.
|
You don't leave your wife and your child behind to save your own tail unless you don't love them, or are simply a coward. I think Agares did love Sara as was still thinking about her when he died. That's my conclusion. If fear stops you from reclaiming what is most dear to you then you are what you are. Perhaps it would've been irrational to attack the bandits, but it's a good thing he came back with the men to get her back right?.... yeah...
| Quote: |
Just as UberYuber hates the word "hero," I hate the word "motherland." It's complete rubbish. The nation of Highland did not give birth to Luca. It does not hold any affection toward Luca. The nation of Highland has no more meaning to Luca than what he gives it.
So Luca did it for love of country. And that makes him eligible for the title of "greatest man ever to exist"? Why does Highland have any more right to exist than the City-States of Jowston? If Jowston overruns Highland and conquers it, why is that a worse thing than Highland overrunning Jowston?
|
That is all opinion. I don't have proof that Luca most definitely cared about Highland because just as easy as he could state it or act it, he could just as easily be lying. My opinion is based on the events.
The statement of "Greatest man to ever exist" has the word "possibly" in front of it and OBVIOUSLY is meant to stir conversation. The way I described him was a man that fights for what he believes in and what is best for the people around him without second thought for his own safety nor for what could be best for himself. That would make him "The greatest man to ever exist." If you choose to not believe to see Luca in the light that I did, then you can argue that, however my reasoning for "POSSIBLY" giving him this title isn't far fetched.
Luca wanted to further the greatness of his kingdom and put an end to the tension between the two nations by making them one. He didn't agree that a peace treaty was simply the right way to go. That's why right after it was signed, he took action. [/opinion]
| Quote: |
I should have been clearer. Hitler and Luca both went out of their way to target civilians in their efforts to make their countries greater (although, as I've said, I don't think that that was Luca's goal in the first place). Although civilians were almost certainly kiled in both the American War of Independence and the Civil War, they were not targeted and exterminated with the prejudice we're talking about here.
|
How about the Atomic Bombs dropped on Japan? They were a sadistic way of ending the war... but hell it worked didn't it? You think those bombs were targetted at military installations? It's not like these things have never happened in real life and people still have a relatively good opinion about the whole situation. The United States has annihilated other peaceful populations the same way, like the Native tribes of it's own lands. The majority of people in the United States today still don't have a relatively negative perception of either of these instances because of the way the story is told and the fact that it's explained that they were necessary evils in order to achieve the goals. That was an underlying point.
| Quote: |
This belongs in the Speculation Shelter, because at its core, that's all it is: speculation.
|
You simply see this as something that I do not making it a difference in opinion. That doesn't necessitate that something is speculatory. An editorial is an objective opinion. Yeah?
| Arcana wrote: |
Really, the article is an attempt to show that the definition of "hero" and "villain" is relative. Unfortunately, we never see enough about Luca Blight to really learn that he has a soft, sensitive side to care about. As Camus said, the evidence presented about Luca looking fondly at his sister and seeing his mother's torment is nonexistent, and resembles a phrase from fanfiction instead of reiterating a fact mentioned in the game.
|
Relative... yep. The rest is opinion formed on what was said, what is known, and what could be. Again, it's an opinion and thus cannot be proven true but simply backed up with relative information as I provided. Editorials ARE opinions. I didn't post this with the intention of getting it posted on SARS' main page nor did I bring it to anyone's attention. It's simply meant to show a point of view that no one has and possibly open your mind to the way other people see people.
Originally, I posted this not because of Luca, but because of real world events that were angering me. People calling other people evil because they kill in the name of their ideals is just ignorant. Fighting for your ideals, and weighing the goals over the means is the very definition of heroic to me. That is not something I want argued about, because it's obvious many people have different opinions on the subject.
But as you said, it's about the relativity of the terms "hero" and "villain" and more or less proves it's possible to have both perceptions of Luca depending on the way you see things and what you choose to believe.
| Quote: |
The fact that Luca Blight pre-emptively attacked a nation, orchestrated brutal attacks on civilians, and laughed the entire time he did so makes him dramatically unsympathetic. Had he done the first two, then normal people might debate that he could be viewed as a great man bringing glory to Highland. However, the fact that he cackled like a raving madman in battle when executing his battles is really unsettling, and can, in a fell swoop, remove any impression of heroism.
|
Heroism isn't defined by your reactions to your actions is it? If Luca killed all these people and seemed sympathetic about it, wouldn't that indicate to his men that he thought he was doing something wrong? He was avenging the fallen soldiers of the Unicorn Brigade. He was making people, even his own men, fear him. Fear is the ultimate ruling device.
| Quote: |
Unfortunately, because the word hero is relative, you can't prove or disprove the argument either way. But, if someone views Luca Blight as a hero, then that person should view characters like Adolf Hitler and Osama Bin Laden as heroes as well, for consistency.
|
Actually both are heroes from the right perspective. I mentioned that in my article too. I simply didn't name them as I didn't want this to be about anything but Luca and the reasoning and methods to the statements.
| flygero wrote: |
Might seem? Since when has murder ever not been horrible? The truth of the matter is, although the ambush was brilliantly cunning, it is by no means justified.
|
I couldn't disagree more. First off, it's an act of war and must be viewed as such regardless of who was killed. The same as the Kalekka incident. In an act of war, you're never a murderer.
This event is possibly the only way to whip a nation into a frenzy about going to war. It was perfectly calculated and got the job done. "By no means" is simply incorrect. Having an opposing point of view is rational, but saying this wasn't justified at all because people had to die is wrong.
| Quote: |
The last time I checked their was supposed to be a peace treaty signing between the two nations that most, if not all the citizens were in favor.
|
You checked this huh? Did you run around asking the Highlanders? Right... I did mention that not only there was a peace treaty, but I also mentioned that the people were in fact for it. Whether it was favorable or not doesn't necessarily mean that it's what was best for Highland. Simply because the people were ready to forget the war does not mean that the war is ready to forget them.
| Sophita wrote: |
Not to mention the Unicorn Brigade was comprised of children - inexperienced trainees at best. Hardly a threat to the crown. To call it justified turns my stomach inside out. It wasn't justified. It was a massacre; Luca butchered his own recruits in order to gain support for a war. A war, mind you, that seems primarily to be to sate his bloodlust - not to gain territory for Highland. Luca seems much more focused on burning and murdering everything in his path, than he is interested in acquiring land for Highland - if anything, he's hurting future Highland land by razing everything to the ground. He's not discriminate in his targets, either; he pretty much wants to slash-and-burn everything.
|
Children massacred by the state army only makes all the more sense. If they were to go to war, the Unicorn Brigade wouldn't have been on the front lines. They were expendable and the most effective loss for achieving the goal.
He IS discriminate in his targets. I don't remember him razing any Highland cities or killing anyone without a purpose for doing so. I don't remember him making any careless war decisions either. Feel free to argue your point with facts because either I'm forgetting them (unlikely since I just beat the game again last night) or I'm just seeing things differently.
The phrase "He won't stop until he destroys everything" is something that was pushed on you by your SOB strategist and Jowy Atraitordes. This is purely speculation because he's afraid of what Luca MIGHT do. This is because he's aware of the great lengths that Luca has gone to, to make the Jowston people fear him. There were witnesses to every massacre: The Unicorn Brigade, Kyaro, Toto, The Beast Rune in Muse. Overkill?... that's relative. Just as my article is. That's the point.
| Quote: |
I'm with John on this one, pretty much; I have to say I just don't think Agares was a coward. The natural response for any person who has a beloved spouse in the situation Sara was in is probably to rush to their aid. However, Agares isn't just any person; he's the King, and as such, is responsible for all the people in his kingdom. For him to go charging after the bandits would be foolish and selfish; he would be putting the entire Kingdom below the expense of one person - even if she was a beloved person. After all, Luca was just a child at the time, and if Agares died and he took the crown, there's no way he could govern competantly. At best, he'd be used as a puppet-King while advisors in the background ruled. At worse, he'd be assasinated early on so that someone else could take the crown. Agares took the hard road and did what was right for Highland - albeit, at the cost of not doing right by Sara. I really can't find such action cowardly. (But I don't think cowardice can ever be a hard fact, either; it's a very subjective word.)
|
Well... that's a ton of speculation. He did what was right for Highland? Hey that sounds a lot like my article and is based solely on your opinion. Simply a difference in opinion of which Blight is the bigger asshole. Is it not rather widely accepted that the greater King leads his forces into battle instead of watching from behing the rear line?
By the majority way of thinking.... If Agares was out for what was best for Highland, he should've has hid his own son killed before he could take the throne. If he couldn't tell that he was a maniac, he should've been able to tell that he'd be seeking revenge on the state the moment he became king. Then you'd have a peaceful strong state ruled by Julia *cough* Jillia *cough*.
No I don't think Agares had any intention of doing what was best for Highland. If anything, I think he was by far the more selfish of the two.
| Eden wrote: |
Even if an action is evil, the doer isn't necessary equally evil.
|
Hey, I think he gets it too. = D
Overall people, like Arcana said, this article was meant to point out that the definition of hero is relative to the individual. It's also meant to express that all actions are justified by the means. Lastly, that killing people is not murder when done as an act of war. The first two are opinions and the last is a fact and whether I agree with any particular one shouldn't be apparent regardless of what I said.
Now that's I've spoken... let me just say once Luca takes his armor off at night, he's a cuddly ball of Highland cuteness. Like Axiose, but with less fur. That makes him a hero to us all.
| Hibicus wrote: |
Furthermore, saying he loved Jillia (not Julia... I think),
|
Yep it's Jillia. (It's also Eilie not Ellie and Rikimaru not Rikmaru and Silverberg not Silverberg. )
| Quote: |
Furthermore, saying he loved Jillia (not Julia... I think), while possible, seems a bit of a stretch. After all, even she admits that she is powerless to stop him. If he held any form of emotion for her (aside from a resemblance), she would at least have some influence over his actions... yes?
|
You see I don't think this is honestly a stretch of the imagination. Even if he simply cares for her because she resembles his mother it still seems that he has strong ties. He asked her why she was crying afterall. Perhaps that can be seen as some attempt to mock her, but I see it as a hard man's way of attempting to care. I don't think he was a kind man fully in touch with his emotions, but I do fully believe that he loves his sister.
It's not directly shown that Jillia even tried to stop him. Perhaps she knew why he was fighting and simply knew that it was futile to even atempt to deter him. Or... perhaps to a certain extent she wished for vengeance as well.
| Quote: |
Finally, Jowy didn't make Luca's work in vain - he, along with Culgan and Seed (who did pledge their loyalty to him afterall), realized that Luca was destroying BOTH countries in the process of his warmongering. Of course, by the time Luca was out of the picture there was little choice but to press on. But at least Jowy was acting on behalf of the greater good, and in the end willing to die as the symbolic "evil" to Riou's "good". That seems far more heroic than killing babies any day of the week.
|
He wasn't destroying Highland. That was just a person's opinion on how they didn't like the direction Highland was taking. As if it was on the path to ruin. He was physically destroying Jowston yes.
Should the war have continued, Jowston would have been annihilated and the war would've ended. There's no reason to believe Luca would've attacked another nation or done anything to his own people as he had absolutely no reason to do so. If he decided to stay as leader, I actually think suicide would've been a more likely ending for him, there's also no reason to believe he couldn't be a relatively good peacetime leader.
If Jowy really wanted to "save Highland", he could've just as easily waited for the war to end and then gone after Luca. Instead, he realized he wasn't strong enough so he took the Agares way out and got someone else to do it. He sold him out to the Highland enemies and thus Highland lost the war directly because of this.
Jowy wasn't acting on behalf of the greater good, he wanted the same thing Luca wanted (as I presented it), that being Highland domination of Jowston. Luca would've gotten it done, Jowy got Luca and (don't forget) many of his soldiers killed in the ambush of North Window to further his own agenda. His efforts also prolonged the war as should Leon not have warned Riou's army, they would've been overwhelmed at the ambush and beaten. Instead, the war went on and many soldiers on both sides died because of Jowy. That's all for naught as I stated.
If this was, in effect, in purpose to end the war, he could've surrendered all of Highland over to Jowston when he became King. Sure that wouldn't have worked as was his excuse, but he did ask Riou to run away and do the same which would've had the same outcome. Because of that, I think it's obvious what he was after.
Luca never killed babies to my knowledge.
:mrgreen: If he did, I'm sure he had a good reason. :mrgreen:
_________________
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Eden
Private Godwin Army
Joined: 17 Feb 2006
Post Count: 6224
Location: Doraat
564676 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 10:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
UberYuber wrote
| Quote: |
| In an act of war, you're never a murderer. |
I am pretty sure this isn't right as you say it. I want to know what an act of war is? Why are there crimes against humanity? Not everything in a war can be excused or decided by saying: "It was war!" or "My superior told me to kill them all".
People's responsibilities for each other's rights as a human being must be worth something even in a war, as weird as it sounds.
| Quote: |
| Luca never killed babies to my knowledge. |
What happened to the little children in Toto? But you're right that we never see a child killed on-screen, though the young guy who wanted to protect Pillika seemed to be very young. (Sorry I am very bad at names)
However you could say he was ar the fort of merceneries and it's his own fault.[/quote]
_________________
The Fool |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tokuro
White Storms
Joined: 05 May 2006
Post Count: 1292
Location: Malinsulo
22016 Potch
0 Soldiers
7777 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 12:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
In my opinion there are three things that show that Luca was no hero.
First if all a hero desires to sacrifice himself for a greater goal.This fact alone shows that Jowy IS a hero (because he uses his blacksword rune and his life to stop the beast rune) whyle Luca shows nothing but desire for blood, and I bet that he was afraid to die, just figthing for his life (those guys always are but I can't say for sure).
That come to our second fact : compassion.A true hero is not only ready to punish but he is first ready to convert the evil in good. That fact shows that yes Riou is also a hero in the original end when he saves Jowy , and acepts both refugees and soldiers (KIba, Klaus and Gilbert) of other places in his team(some could say that he did that just because he have a small army but just look at Genkaku story to see that this kid got what it takes when it's a matter of principles), something that Luca would never do. In fact if i remember Luca is the one who execute Solon Jhee simply because he didn't have the job done.
Three and more important fact in my opinion: Luca was NEVER respected as a leader . Seed an Culgan both hates Luca (that's what I believe seeing that both of them quickly join Jowy side) and show's a lot of despite when Riou answer that he will invade the king room (something like "destroy everything just Luca Bligth did" but I don't remember quite well) also Kiba and Klaus didn't like him . It is not only a question of a "misunderstood hero" because all of them were real close to Luca .You guys could call Seed and Culgan, Lucia in the second game as heros, but enemyes but never a sadistic fo#@ like Luca
Also for those that believes that in a war "anything goes" know that a truly warrior would kill yes but thinking in life, killing FOR life. You know you guys could go to a martial artist academy and learn some principles (I recomend Taekwondo but...) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RedCydranth
Ice Dragons
Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Post Count: 3384
Location: Crystal Valley
3650446 Potch
194 Soldiers
100 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 12:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I think that there is one thing we're all forgetting when we look at Luca Blight in Suikoden II. The game is from Riou's point of view for the majority of it and we witness Luca do these so called horrendous acts so that we, the player, detest him and make our stomachs curl in anger. Konami did this very well, and we often take the pre-set hero's veiw as the correct one. However there ARE two sides to every war and we do not reallt see that much of the other to truly say Luca was a truly evil person. Like Uber said Luca had to be cold-hearted and callous when invading Ryube and destroying cities. It establishes a fear which people respect.
If Luca had invaded and left its citizens alive, couldn't the citizens of Ryube rebel and attack Luca's men? By removing all threats (except for the few who witness and flee telling others of his tyranny) he establishes a safer place for his own men.
If Luca had only death on his mind he would have killed his own men as well. Some could say that the Unicorn Brigade was his own, but their sacrifice was needed to start the war.
Someone said if I see Luca as a hero, I must too see Hitler and Bin Laden as a hero as well. I disagree. Its about veiwpoint. I respect Hitler because he had Germany on the top of the world. As a leader of a country he was very good. He took a post World War I Germany which was in a terrible depression and brought it once again to power. That is something not easily done. Do I advocate the killing of all the Jews to do it? No. Thats where my respect for him stops. As an american, I can't say I view Bin Laden as a hero, but if I were an Al Quaeda supporter I can see why he would be. He did what no other country has been able to do. Weaken the morale and take a fight right to the United States. What we view as cowardice is viewed as bravery by them. Its all based on perspective, and that is EXACTLY the point UberYuber was trying to make with this editorial.
_________________
I'm sorry and I apologize are the same thing.
Except at a funeral.
Fantasy Football (NFL) Sign Ups in Sports Forum! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
iscalio
Joined: 28 Mar 2004
Post Count: 8370
1681589 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 2:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Luca was a merciless butcher who enjoyed degrading and hurting people. He betrayed his own people, slaughtered young recruits of his own army who trusted him. I don't need to "know his perspective" - this is just evil and detestable. There is nothing that could justify such acts.
A hero is someone who puts values above his own interests, willing to risk his life for others or the greater good.
Luca's motivation was bloodlust and revenge. Revenge is not a value, not a greater good - revenge is just a weakness. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Camus the Noble
Les Renés
Joined: 24 Sep 2005
Post Count: 1881
Location: Vinay Del Zexay
1056014 Potch
224 Soldiers
0 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 3:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| RedCydranth wrote: |
| Its been established that Luca did all of this so that his home country of Highland can become stronger. |
Really? I have never heard that. Do you have any references to back it up? The biographies of Luca Blight here, at Suikosource, and at Their Star all seem to suggest that Luca only wanted to go to war to exact revenge on the people of Jowston. Let's take a look-see:
| SARS wrote: |
Luca is the son of Agares and Sara Blight. He is known as the "Mad Prince," and is generally feared for his unequaled cruelty and bloodlust. His inextinguishable anger is caused by an incident where Highland Royalty was ambushed by ruffians. Agares fled, while Luca and Sara were captured. Sara was violated by the ruffians in front of Luca's eyes until Han Cunningham came to rescue them. After learning that the ruffians were hired by Muse, he harbors lasting resentment towards the Jowston Alliance, and also toward his father who fled, leaving Luca and Sara to the ruffians. The only person in highland who Luca allows to speak equally with him is Jillia, who resembles Sara.
Just before Highland started invading Jowston, Luca Blight was given complete control over the Highland Military as Agares stepped down to take responsibility for the cease fire he signed with Jowston. However, Luca took this as a chance to start another war with Jowston, and this time he was ready to use the Beast Rune, which has been passed along the Blight bloodline. He first set up the Unicorn Brigade Massacre to validate a war on Jowston. Then he rushed into Muse, and cunningly plotted Anabelle's death by convincing Jowy Atreides, who was a member of a mercenary group hired by Muse, to assassinate Anabelle. He then sacks Muse, and quickly takes over Radat, Coronet, South Window, and Greenhill (with the help of Jowy Atreides).
Then, with Jowy Atreides' help, he assassinates Agares and becomes King. He then leads his White Wolf Army to destroy the Dunan Unification Army. He is initially unstoppable, but due to the strategic cooperation between Leon Silverberg, Shu, and Jowy Atreides, Luca Blight is ambushed during a night raid by the strongest fighters of the Unification Army, and is killed in the end. |
| Suikosource wrote: |
Luca is the son of Agares and Sara Blight. He was known as the Mad Prince, and generally feared for his unmatched cruelty and bloodlust. His inextinguishable anger was caused by an incident when the entourage of Highland Royalty was ambushed by ruffians. Agares fled. Sara pushed Luca out of the carriage, and continued riding towards the ruffians herself in order to distract their attention and allow Luca time to escape. Sara was raped by the ruffians; however, Luca did not discover that until later when eavasedropping on those same ruffians, in the town of Kyaro. After learning that the ruffians were hired by Muse, he harbors lasting resentment towards the Jowston Alliance; and also toward his father who fled, leaving Luca and Sara to the ruffians. The only person in Highland who Luca allows to speak equally with him is Jillia, who resembles Sara.
Just before Highland started invading Jowston, Luca Blight was given complete control over the Highland Military as Agares stepped down to take responsibility for the cease fire he signed with Jowston. However, Luca took this as a chance to start another war with Jowston; and this time he was ready to use the Beast Rune, which has been passed along the Blight bloodline. He first set up the Unicorn Brigade Massacre to validate a war on Jowston. Then he rushed into Muse and cunningly plotted Anabelle's death by convincing Jowy Atreides, who was a member of of a mercenary group hired by Muse, to assassinate her. He then sacked Muse and quickly took over Radat, Coronet, South Window and Greenhill (with the help of Jowy Atreides). Then, with Jowy Atreides' help, he assassinated Agares and became King. He then led his White Wolf Army to destroy the Dunan Unification Army. He is initially unstoppable, but due to the strategic cooperation between Leon Silverberg, Shu and Jowy Atriedes; Luca Blight was ambushed during a night raid by the strongest fighters of the Unification Army and was killed in the end. |
| Their Star wrote: |
| The son of Agares and Sara Blight. When he was young, the violation of his mother in front of his own eyes traumatized him greatly. He always resented his father for leaving them to the ruffians hired by Muse and he had a deep hatred for the City-State. He was a beast of a man; he possessed nearly superhuman strength, resolve, and a undying bloodlust and will for power. After Agares signed a peace treaty with the Jowston Alliance, he gave Luca complete control over Highland's military. Luca took this chance to massacre the Highland Unicorn Brigade and claimed it as Jowston breaking the peace agreement. Using that as justification, he started another war with Jowston. With the help of Jowy Atreides, Luca quickly took control of the Muse, Greenhill, and South Window regions. Further impressed with Jowy, he and Jowy poisoned Agares Blight in order to make Luca the King of Highland. Then he led his own army against the Unification Army but due to the betrayal of Jowy and Leon Silverberg, he is overpowerd and killed by the Unification Army. |
All three sources say that he hated the City-States of Jowston for the rape of his mother. Luca then exploited his authority over the military to start a war. No nationalistic feelings are mentioned. The most logical explanation is that he hates the Jowston Alliance and wants to see it destroyed. If that is the case, he massacred thousands and took a nation to war over a personal grudge. Not exactly what I would call heroic.
If it could be proven that Luca went to war for the glory of Highland, then I could see how a more generous definition of a "hero" than mine could honor Luca with such a title. As I see no reason to believe that Luca was fighting for Highland rather than his own purposes, I see no reason to change my conception of him.
| UberYuber wrote: |
Camus wrote:
Luca wasn't a Saint, but he was a hero.
...
Luca quite possibly was the greatest man ever to exist in Suikoworld, but he most definitely was a hero.
The first sentence acknowledges that Luca had shortcomings, while the second says that he may have been the "greatest man ever to exist." Rather inconsistent, don't you think?
Inconsistent? I don't follow. The greatest man to ever exist will have faults bud. I don't live in a dreamworld. |
Well, if Luca wasn't a saint, then it stands to reason that a saint would be greater than him. Unless, of course, there are zero saints in the world, rendering the use of the word in the first sentence meaningless. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sierra Mikain
Blue Moon
Joined: 20 Jan 2005
Post Count: 4262
Location: Trista Duon
19500 Potch
0 Soldiers
666 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 4:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I'm afraid I may have to say this at least 200000 more times as long as I post in here. So let me make this really big.
THE ARTICLE WAS ABOUT HOW A HERO IS RELATIVE TO THE INDIVIDUAL. BECAUSE BEING A HERO IS RELATIVE, IT'S POSSIBLE FOR A PERSON TO BE A HERO AND A VILLAIN AT THE SAME TIME.
| Camus wrote: |
Well, if Luca wasn't a saint, then it stands to reason that a saint would be greater than him. Unless, of course, there are zero saints in the world, rendering the use of the word in the first sentence meaningless.
|
If you want to argue for the sake of arguing, please come up with something that is worth it and not based solely on semantics that anyone can comprehend in order to try and win an argument.
"Luca wasn't a Saint" means "Luca wasn't perfect" That is informal speech and doesn't signify that Saint's ARE perfect.
Don't waste my time anymore.
| Quote: |
If it could be proven that Luca went to war for the glory of Highland...
|
Can it be proven that he didn't? All you have is an opinion. As do all of your "sources." A contradicting opinion is not wrong.
It's interesting that you have a Shakespeare quote in your signature.and yet you're arguing a piece that's largely satirical and meant to be thought-provoking. If you were to argue stuff like that about things that Shakespeare wrote, you'd be arguing all frigging year. You're missing the entire point of the article, simply because you disagree with what's being said. This post was written BECAUSE everyone would disagree.
| Quote: |
"dood...it's like satire. If you can't handle a shift in perspective then pull your head out of your *cough*...you might be able to look around better"
|
...
| iscalio wrote: |
Luca was a merciless butcher who enjoyed degrading and hurting people. He betrayed his own people, slaughtered young recruits of his own army who trusted him. I don't need to "know his perspective" - this is just evil and detestable. There is nothing that could justify such acts.
|
All of that, besides the fact that he slaughtered young recruits of his own army, is not necessarily true. And whether or not such means are justified by the goals is also relative to the individual. It depends on the value of each human life versus the value of a nation and its strength.
| Quote: |
A hero is someone who puts values above his own interests, willing to risk his life for others or the greater good.
Luca's motivation was bloodlust and revenge. Revenge is not a value, not a greater good - revenge is just a weakness.
|
Revenge isn't a weakness. The desire for revenge can and often does motivate a person towards a goal. Avenging his mother isnt' exactly a selfish pursuit either. A hero, by definition, is not what you claim it to be. It's simply someone who fights for a good cause regardless of repurcussions. Whether that cause is "good" or not is relative to the individual.
----------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------
Take a terrorist for example. A terrorist is a hero to other people that share his or her cause. However, the majority of the world views a terrorist as a dispicable villain. The actual value of such a person is not determined by what they do, but what each individual believes. Simply because this person is doing what they need to do to achieve something greater than their own success, that makes the deed heroic. Whether they are heroes is dependent on which side of the war you are on.
As far as what I said to Iscalio... in the United States today, people who fight in a war and throw their lives away are considered heroic. I can't say how many times I'm beat to death with statements of how I'm free because of people who have spilled blood in the past. All around the world people are fighitng for their nations for causes they don't necessarily believe in simply because the value of the nation is far greater than the value of an individual. Should they refuse to fight, they learn just how large the difference in value is. Should these soldiers die, it shouldn't matter to any person who killed them... but the fact that life was lost regardless should.
I might as well have written an article about terrorism. Instead I simply related Luca as such and wrote the article from the point of view of someone who is viewing his motives as just. It's not about proving that they were, it's about showing that they could be and trying to prove that simply because you don't agree with the way someone does something or the repercussions of their actions, does not make their actions wrong or the person evil.
Please read that again if you still want to argue.
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Yvl
Sanctus
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Post Count: 5979
Location: Senan
55224 Potch
1063 Soldiers
12421 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 5:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Indeed, a hero is someone you look up to. There are some people who see Hitler as a hero. Of course, most of them are horrible people as well.
In any case, ANYONE can be a hero (except Thomas, because I said so!) so wouldnt that make the entire article... pointless?
_________________
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
