Konami / Murayama - How deep is their hatred?

[Gremio]

Greetings to all, I'm a newbie, although a big Suikoden fan since 1996. I have played suiko den 1 and 2 and I love them all!

I registered to this forum because I'd like to discuss about Murayama's departure from the series. Nobody seems to know why exactly he left, although I heard many rumors. I hear he had some problem with Konami and how they tried to change the plot to a direction he didn't envision. Another thing I heard was that he was hired bu square to work on FF X-2 after being comvinced by Uematsu or something.
But I personally think these rumors are not true. It's still sad that they left, though.

I think that Suikoden without Miki Higashino and Yoshitaka Murayama is obviously missing the two most important responsibles for the series' success. Higashino's music defined Suikoden for me, and without her music, Suikoden 3 (based on the soundtrack) seemed very "hollow." Maybe I am overdramatizing but what can I say?

That's why I'm worried about the series's future... I've read that Suiko IV has been already criticized for screenplay. That leaves me with a question: how bad is the argue between "Konami" (I can't do a specific name, sadly) and Murayama? Is there a slight chance to see him again on Suikoden in future?

Living in Europe, I have yet to play Suiko III :cry:, but I know Murayama was forced to leave because he wanted a different ending for that episode... But why anyone in the high spheres in Konami would be interested in such matters? I mean, shouldn't they just look if the game sells well? Why interfere with the main creator's ideas? Why this had to happen is beyond me.

This whole thing just makes me crazy. I'd like to understand better, so if any of you knows a page where these "behind the scenes" records, I'd like to read more... Murayama interviews and such...

Anyway, Murayama proved to be a great writer with the first two Suikoden games, does anyone knows if he's working on anything at present time?

I am very frustrated with Konami for not revealing the real reason why Murayama has departed. I mean, the same is done for any other industry, so why not in the game development industry? I can't even begin to express my shock and disappointment at some of Konami's diatribes when it comes to changing direction for their series. For complete details, I refer you to all of my articles I've written about the game development industry over at IGN. I shall here mention only a few random items that may be new information or old information. For instance, I surely believe that Konami personifies our fandom's short attention span and penchant for apathy (The Castlevania series being a p[rime example of that). My views, of course, are not the issue here. The issue is that there is more than a mite of palaver in its nostrums. And I can say that with a clear conscience, because some people say that that isn't sufficient evidence to prove that Konami is secretly scheming to inject its lethal poison into our children's minds and souls in the form of anti-consumerism. And I must agree; one needs much more evidence than that. But the evidence is there, for anyone who isn't afraid to look at it (Such as the numerous series that Konami has axed despite popularity among fans). Just look at the way that Konami asserts that all major rpg titles are controlled by a covert group of "insiders" (which is the excuse Konami made at a shareholder's meeting when asked why they don't invest much time or money in RPGs). That assertion is not only untrue, but a conscious lie (Square-Enix anyone?). It will not be easy to go placidly amid the noise and haste. Nevertheless, we must attempt to do exactly that, for the overriding reason that if I want to develop a subconscious death wish, that should be my prerogative. I indisputably don't need Konami forcing me to. I don't mean to throw fuel on an already considerable fire, but someone has to be willing to bring Konami to justice (especially former employees). Even if it's not polite to do so. Even if it hurts a lot of people's feelings. Even if everyone else is pretending that the cure for corruption is more corruption. Let's look at the facts. First, evil individuals are acting in concert with other evil individuals for an evil purpose. Second, Konami should reserve its stereotypes and labels and remember to treat others with a bit more respect and equality (the fans!).

I'm not trying to step back and consider the problem of Konami's off-the-cuff comments in the larger picture of popular culture imagery (such as RPGs). Well, okay, it is. But I should point out that if Konami wants to be taken seriously, it should counter the arguments from fans with facts, not illogical panaceas, personal anecdotes, or insults. Now, I hope Konami was joking when it implied it was going to suborn laughable, illogical gasbags to perpetuate myths that glorify frotteurism (such as seen in interviews recently), but it sure didn't sound like it.

In the course of my work as an editor, I regularly come in contact with pugnacious "insiders", and most of them also feel that I welcome Konami's comments (don't ask me why). However, Konami needs to realize that its method (or school, or ideology -- it is hard to know exactly what to call it) goes by the name of "Konami-ism". It is a brassbound and avowedly anti-fandom philosophy that aims to elevate Konami's fansite postings to prominence as epistemological principles. Doesn't it strike you as odd that Konami's total indifference to complaints about it is indicative of its self-esteem and value system? In many ways, there are two related questions in this matter. The first is to what extent Konami has tried to make life less pleasant for us. The other is whether or not some deep void within Konami makes it necessary for it to make certain series accessible only to those fanatical enough to remain inside a poorly marketed fandom. It's that simple. Even if one is opposed to blasphemous sensationalism (and I am), then surely, in asserting that black is white and night is day, it demonstrates an astounding narrowness of vision. Konami's propaganda machine once said that Konami would never preach hatred towards their fans. So much for credibility! If the people generally are relying on false information sown by censorious, abusive hellions, then correcting that situation becomes a priority for the defense of our nation. I think I've dished it out to Konami as best as I can. I hope you now understand why I say that Konami is obviously hiding something. Otherwise, why must they hide all these things from us, the fans?

Well, saying all that makes me feel better, thanks! And please forgive a newbie if these matters have been discussed to bore hundreds times before! ^_^;

[Leb]

The details surrounding Murayama's departure are unknown, but the general consensus is that the "different ending" theory is a load of crap. Evidence hints that Murayama had made the decision to leave Konami before Suikoden III went into development, as the only involvement he had in the game was the Thomas chapters.

[Dakota]

Murayama is GONE HOLY CRAP!!!!
that sucks! :cry:
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Its height.

[Leb]

...Welcome to two years ago.

[Sophita]

Welcome, Gremio!

Like Lebenengel says, the idea that Konami and Murayama having a huge falling out seems to be a myth - most of the actual facts seem to point towards Murayama having his fill of the series/company and just leaving long before Suikoden 3's plot went into development (with the exception of the Thomas chapters). He wasn't heavily involved in Suikoden 3 at all, and the supposed missing "Sasarai chapter" and alternate ending are likely myths.

I wouldn't worry about people criticizing Suikoden 4's script, yet - There will always be naysayers (and overpraisers) and the only opinion that truly counts is yours.
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[Dakota]

[TheAngelicSin]

I'd like to see how the creator wanted the series to turn out but since we can't see his ending... I only hope Konami will continue the series AND come up with good plots and a great finale. ;P

I'm also curious what went on but there's generally little to no information on the topic available on the Net.
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[Thief]

It's interesting to see how many fans blamed the flaws in the games following Suikoden II on this issue. They couldn't change this guy's decision to leave, but at least they didn't choose to let the series die out just like that.

Too bad, it's not like Suikoden II was any more perfect anyway.

[Kohaku]

I have a question, would then Murayama make something like Xenosaga?
Xenosaga was made by the team who made Xenogears that had been sacked by Squaresoft.
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[Axiose]

Many fans blamed anything and everything they could think of on Murayama not being there for the whole game. In reality he wouldn't have had much impact on the battle system, skills, buddy system and Trinity Site System anyway. I know the Trinity Sight System is a large story driven device, but considering he was behind Thomas' chapters I would have thought he knew about the chapter/3 hero's system and wasn't opposed to it.

So really, people blaming Murayama leaving as the reason they think Suikoden III is a bad game (I think it's a great addition the the series btw!) are just looking for a scape-goat for things changing.
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[Axiose] [Fliktor]

[TheAngelicSin]

I see a few flaws in Suikoden III... but I see a few flaws in both I & II at that. The reason I got back into Suikoden was Suikoden III. It was sitting on my shelf, I saw it, liked the art (which is how I bought Suikoden II...), figured just because I lost in Hugo Chapter 1 the first time... doesn't mean I wouldn't be able to beat it. ;P Needless to say I LOVED the game and restarted I, though I never fully beat that one... up to the final battle! But I have no television or PSx with me here in Buffalo. ^^;

I agree with Thief; at least Konami didn't just shoot Suikoden down and actually continued with it. Let's face it, no matter who's making the game all of us are going to have a problem or two with some aspects of the upcoming games (plots, characters, etc). ;P
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[Hrestelan]

[Vextor]

Putting facts together, we know Murayama was with Konami until around March of 2002. His last appearance as a konami employee was at a "young game creators convention" held in Tokyo in that month. In an entry within a Square executive's online journal, it mentions him drinking with "ex-konami" Murayama--this was in May 2002. Suikoden 3 was released in July of 2002, so even if Murayama left in March of 2002, the master copy would already have been done by the time he left.

Fumi Ishikawa stated in an interview that she heard about Suikoden 3's villain at an early phase of development, and how suprised she was. Thus, the fact that Luc would be the villain of the game and would die was within the game's scope from te get-go. Murayama was likely involved in most all aspects of the plot, although staff state that the actual script was written buy a team of writers. Considering the fact that Murayama was a director and producer at the same time, it's unlikely that he did any of the actual script writing.

As for the Thomas chapters, that section was done by Inumura Koroku, who is Murayama's "apprentice" scenario writer.

[Aurelien]

So what exactly was Murayama's role in Suikoden III if any and known?

I mean, first we heard rumors about him getting involved in the first three chapters of Hugo, Geddoe, Chris, and Thomas and the fourth chapter was done by someone else (hence, people feel that the story was rushed since fourth chapter). Then it was said that he only did Thomas' chapters (early part of this thread). Now you said that even Thomas' chapters were done by Inumura Koroku (same name as the dog? No offense intended) and not by Murayama himself, while Murayama was likely involved in most all aspects of the game.

So does that mean that he was indeed involved in most of the aspects of the game, but passively (meaning just probably a few thoughts here and there, but done by other people)?

And if I remembered correctly, Murayama's name wasn't mentioned at all during the end credit. Wouldn't that mean that he wasn't involved at all (or at least not major enough)?
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~City-States of Jowston and Tinto Republic~
06.06.2004 - 20.01.2008

[Axiose]

I know this will sound blasphemous, but whether Murayam worked on Chapters 1,2&3, and not 4&5; I thought that the story was consitent all the way through, and the end chapters were just as great, and didn't feel rushed. So to me, I didn't feel a change in pace at all.
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[Axiose] [Fliktor]