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Buff
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 Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Blazing Camp wrote: |
I bet EGM had a page long review with gleeful praises and pretty screenshots for KHII though. :roll:
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pretty much a 2 page on it.
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If all you guys are going to do is whine and complain about how unprofessional some magazine is, I'm closing this. I imagine GameFAQs has a *beep* going on there for you to participate in, so posting here will require actual thought. "wtf is wrong withese guyz" is not thinking.
They're unprofessional? Prove it. The points they made are valid. |
i'm going to agree with leb. i see how some of the points they made arn't good, don't just come in here just to whine and complain about it. actually make points on how you think they made wrong points. some of the stuff they said are valid stuff, but i think the 3 who played it and reviewed it arn't suikoden fans.
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siefer
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| Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Leb wrote: |
If all you guys are going to do is whine and complain about how unprofessional some magazine is, I'm closing this. I imagine GameFAQs has a *beep* going on there for you to participate in, so posting here will require actual thought. "wtf is wrong withese guyz" is not thinking.
They're unprofessional? Prove it. The points they made are valid. |
The problem isn't the points they are making, it's how they are going about presenting these points.
I thought the problems in the review were pretty obvious and didn't necessitate the need for analysis, but I'll go in-depth at your request:
Reviewer 1:
Overall, the most solid review. He briefly hits upon some of the major points that can be said about the game (but not all) and goes a little into why he believes this to be the case.
His mentioning (and focus) on the random battle music was kind of random though. This is exactly what I meant in my original post in misleading the mainstream gamer and by reading that line alone, they are left with a negative (in more ways than one) impression on Suikoden V's soundtrack.
Now, I realize the touchiness in defining what is "good" and "bad" music, but his comment only confuses and misleads the reader into thinking that Suikoden V must have "bad" or "archaic" music, when he himself may not even think that is the case!
His biggest fault was simply the lack of depth to his argument (which isn't entirely his fault, it's the magazine's fault if anyone's). He states some of the major points that can be said about the game, but doesn't have the time to really explain why this is the case. Some people might think that isn't a problem, but considering the target audience of the EGM readership, it's more of a problem of lack of an attention span and focus on more of what the people really want to read about than anything else.
Reviewer 2:
The irony I see in this review is that he acknowledges that Suikoden II was the best in the series, but seems to forget WHY it was the best in the series and completely glosses over that tidbit in his review to complain about other matters (which he is making it appear to be far worse than it actually is).
What made Suikoden II great (at least in my eyes, although I'm fairly sure most others agree) was its characters and moving, yet simple, story. Suikoden II wasn't great because of its battle system, its graphics, or even the complexity of its plot/characters.
The reviewer acknowledges that Suikoden V not only contains the positives of II, but goes beyond it with the inclusion of both a deep and engrossing storyline/characters, but completely plays it down due to two technical problems and a direction problem that is resolved within the first few hours of the game.
Are the problems he brought up valid? Of course. The camera system could have been much improved, the loading was unnecessarily frequent, and the pacing in the beginning of the game is reminiscient of the first Lord of the Rings book (not movie, which is substantially faster paced).
Are these problems so great that he had to emphasize them over the finer points of the game? Apparently he believes they were, and that's how most of the mainstream will see it too.
Reviewer 3:
The weakest of the reviews IMO, at least all of the reviewers can agree that the story is solid because they can't even agree on something as easy to define as graphics...while the keen eye (and more importantly, the person who has already played the game) will realize that she praises the cut-scene graphics and not necessarily the in-game, standard graphics, the mainstream viewer will be totally in the dark and will see this as a contradiction to the two previous reviews (of course, since the magazine is assuming that the average reader has a low attention span, I guess that isn't a problem).
Of course, I'm not even sure if the reviewer enjoyed the story since it is portrayed as both good and boring...
I still stand by my point that the IGN review is still the best overall review I have read. It goes into depth into virtually all of the strong, and weak points in Suikoden V.
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Sophita
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| Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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I find the "Same Old Story" criticism unfair as well, because it really seems like an easy way to dismiss the game. Every single Final Fantasy, for example, has the same story - a young outcast teams up with a motley crew to stop an ubervillian bent on nothing less than massive destruction - but you'll never hear a word on how they're the same. When you really think about it, all RPG's have a certain amount of sameness in the plot - there are no new stories. Very few come up with new ways to tell them. It doesn't tell you anything about the quality of the story told, which is more important.
The "long-winded" comment also irritates me, because IMO a story should be as long as it takes to tell a story. Long-winded implies it goes on far longer than it should, which isn't the sense I get at all - if anything, I think this is the strongest-paced Suikoden.
And the fighting system is old-school style, but uhm, so is every single other RPG. It's not like FF (only really long running series I can think of off the top of my head) changes any more in battle systems from each game than Suikoden does.
| Quote: |
| The game also takes way too long to get going-- we're talking several hours of setup before any thing important. |
And yet, Kingdom Hearts II, famous for it's multi-hour tutorial, I'm sure, got quite a better score...
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Calvin
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| Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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Game Informer gave the game a 7.5. Not a terrible score, but not a great one either. It seems their main argument was a slow beginning and unsatisfactory load times. I'm seeing a trend here.
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Blazing Camp
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| Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Every RPG has a slow begining though, which makes that criticism kinda useless. It would'nt make sense to have all the action and excitement happen in the first few hours of a game, then turn boring towards the middle and end. |
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John Layfield
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| Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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It would if your hectic game review schedule meant that in the case of RPGs, you only really get to play the opening few hours before having to submit a review.
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Timbo
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| Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Zonder wrote: |
| Game Informer gave the game a 7.5. Not a terrible score, but not a great one either. It seems their main argument was a slow beginning and unsatisfactory load times. I'm seeing a trend here. |
That's a bit harsh. They gave Suikoden 4 an 8. I'd give Suikoden 5 an 8.75 or a 9.
| Quote: |
| And the fighting system is old-school style, but uhm, so is every single other RPG. It's not like FF (only really long running series I can think of off the top of my head) changes any more in battle systems from each game than Suikoden does. |
I disagree. Final Fantasy vastly changes the battle and grwoth system each game. From FFIV's introduction of the 'Real time' system, to FFV's ability to change classes constantly and gain abilities, to FFVI's epser system, to FFVII's materia system, to FFVIII's junctioning, to FFIX's gaingin abilites off of items, to FFX's sphere grid, to FFX-2's fighting system, I think they change pretty drastically. VI and VII are kind of simlar and VII and VIII are too, but they still play very differntly.
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Fudozukushi
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| Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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The Game Informer review had pictures from the Sepiroth fight in it, the Suikoden V review had pictures with Georg only in his Queen's Knight outfit.
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Hawk Thanatos
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| Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Timbo wrote: |
| Quote: |
| And the fighting system is old-school style, but uhm, so is every single other RPG. It's not like FF (only really long running series I can think of off the top of my head) changes any more in battle systems from each game than Suikoden does. |
I disagree. Final Fantasy vastly changes the battle and grwoth system each game. From FFIV's introduction of the 'Real time' system, to FFV's ability to change classes constantly and gain abilities, to FFVI's epser system, to FFVII's materia system, to FFVIII's junctioning, to FFIX's gaingin abilites off of items, to FFX's sphere grid, to FFX-2's fighting system, I think they change pretty drastically. VI and VII are kind of simlar and VII and VIII are too, but they still play very differntly. |
I don't think they play very differently at all, no matter what you do out of battle it's still Attack, Magic, Items when you're in battle. Suikoden's exactly the same:
Suikoden I had one rune slot,
Suikoden II had 3, allowing much more customizing of characters.
Suikoden III intoduced the partner system, a different way of moving around the battlefield and a change in the way magic was used and a skill system.
Suikoden IV had 4 member teams, the gradual learning and leveling of Unites and the changing of weapon element.
Suikoden V introduced formations, changes in the effectiveness of runes in certain slots and what runes could actually be equipped there and a different skill system. |
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Elixxur
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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Actually what EGM said is true..I bet if they gave a good review you would be praising them..LOL they don't show favortism toward Square either.. You have to keep in mind that they look at the game from a neutral standpoint. It's unethical to take sides with any game company or game. I should know I am an editor =0 Editors spend a lot of time with the game. This game does start out at a slow pace. For the non diehard fans it's pretty boring..Gameplay wise it doesn't compare to S1 or 2, but it is a upgrade from 3 and 4..It does take the usual standpoint as the first one did..It was perfect till someone had to go and mess things up..However, it took forever for that to happen in V..
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Sophita
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| Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 2:50 am Post subject: |
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Hawk hits what I wanted to when I said the battle systems were mostly the same. They're slightly different, but it's all variations ont he same formula.
| Elixxur wrote: |
| Actually what EGM said is true..I bet if they gave a good review you would be praising them..*laugh* they don't show favortism toward Square either.. You have to keep in mind that they look at the game from a neutral standpoint. It's unethical to take sides with any game company or game. I should know I am an editor =0 Editors spend a lot of time with the game. This game does start out at a slow pace. For the non diehard fans it's pretty boring..Gameplay wise it doesn't compare to S1 or 2, but it is a upgrade from 3 and 4..It does take the usual standpoint as the first one did..It was perfect till someone had to go and mess things up..However, it took forever for that to happen in V.. |
No offense, but I wouldn't trust anyone's claim to be an editor when they can't be bothered to put more than two periods in an ellipses (...). (Then again, good editors are far and few between, if the crappy quality of modern magazines/books is to be believed.)
Furthermore, I think you're missing all the damn posts that have said some of the criticisms are valid. Others, in people's opinoins are not. I know if they were more positive, people would be saying the exact same thing on how it ignores the flaws. Only an idiot would say OMG THIS GAME IS PERFECT LOL or OMG THIS GAME IS THE WORST EVAH LOL. It does start out slow. That isn't a good or bad quality on it's own.
And sorry, but it's all but too easy to see that yes, style can count more than story. When you've only got a few hours to actually play a game, you're not going to be able to get very indepth, and that shows in reviews.
| Quote: |
| Gameplay wise it doesn't compare to S1 or 2, but it is a upgrade from 3 and 4 |
Have you played this game? It's battle system is all but identical to 2, but with more strategy added to it.
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Last edited by Sophita on Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:31 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Hawk Thanatos
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| Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:09 am Post subject: |
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| Elixxur wrote: |
| Gameplay wise it doesn't compare to S1 or 2, but it is a upgrade from 3 and 4.. |
Gameplay wise this game is very similar to S1 and 2, just with a lot more added to it. Unless you have some hatred for formations or making characters stronger using skills I don't see how it's worse.
| Elixxur wrote: |
| It does take the usual standpoint as the first one did..It was perfect till someone had to go and mess things up..However, it took forever for that to happen in V.. |
You're not really qualified to say this until you've actually played the game a bit further than the engagement party becuase you obviously show no understanding of the story and how it's different from S1. |
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poorguy171
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| Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 6:20 am Post subject: |
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I can't speak for everyone, but I complain about reviews for several reasons: if the review is poorly written, or if the score doesn't reflect the review. Gamespot in particular has a lot of the latter problem. I'll see a review for a FF where they say the soundtrack is okay but nothing amazing and that the voices are usually pretty good, and then a review for another RPG where they only praise the soundtrack and voice acting, and the FF still gets a higher score in the sound category.
The EGM reviews are pretty badly written, but they're not the worst ones I've seen yet. I think the main problem is that because Suikoden V isn't a mainstream game, it gets a more limited space for its review, and the reviewers can't go indepth.
The worst review I've seen so far for Suikoden V is Game Informer's by far. I've read their Suikoden III and IV reviews. Both praised the games for their stories, and while they mentioned that the graphics weren't technically amazing, they did have a good style. In the review for Suikoden V, it was 2 columns of complaining about the slow paced beginning (even though they mention that it helps to further the story and character development later on). After an 8.5 for Suikoden IV, there's no excuse for giving V a 7.5, especially from both reviewers (I don't understand why they bother having a little "second opinion" review, it always (and I mean always) gives almost the same score :|). In fact, I don't think they even mentioned the loading times in the main review. Caused me to lose all respect for the magazine.
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Elixxur
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:50 am Post subject: |
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Actually I am an editor, the only reason why I use ellipses on here is because half the time when I post it is in the wee morning hours. Sorry if that changed your belief, not like I care if you believe that I am or not. I do have a BA in Journalism, and I am 24. What about you? =0 Anyway I know I haven't played this game enough to give it a full review, however, I have played it enough to judge and to say that it has a very slow start. Also I deplore the whole every five second I fight a monster system. I can't even take one step before I find myself engaged in another battle. Here I thought IV was bad. At least two and one had a great battle system, this one is horrid, this is for the patient and die hard fans.
And btw, I never said anything about style. All I said was how slow of a pace this game has. It feels like it's more for the diehard fans especially with the horrid random battle system. (I already covered that, had to mention it again, gah I hate it) If the game did not have those two flaws, I'm sure it would have received higher scores. Of course everyone has different opinions and views on everything in life, so no review can ever be taken seriously. It's just to give the reader/gamer an idea of what that particular person thought of and experienced while they played the game.
I just find it amusing how some fans think just because they (EGM) gave the game low scores, they think there is a favortism toward Square. I know many ppl think FF7 is the best one, but IMO 8 is the best one. 9 is the weakest one, since I did beat the final boss using level 2 magic =0 and in under 20hrs.
Anyway thanks for reading.
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Dragonstar13
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:03 am Post subject: |
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| John Layfield wrote: |
| It would if your hectic game review schedule meant that in the case of RPGs, you only really get to play the opening few hours before having to submit a review. |
That's true. The reviews could of came out like this, since they were frustrated with the deadlines. This game is not a short one, that's for sure.
| Elixxur wrote: |
| At least two and one had a great battle system, this one is horrid, this is for the patient and die hard fans. |
Please explain on why the battle system is worse then S1+2. All I've seen you mention on the inferior system, is the random battles. Not the actual battle system.
| Quote: |
| I just find it amusing how some fans think just because they (EGM) gave the game low scores, they think there is a favortism toward Square. I know many ppl think FF7 is the best one, but IMO 8 is the best one. 9 is the weakest one, since I did beat the final boss using level 2 magic =0 and in under 20hrs. |
To be honest, I suspect the reasons they choose to focus on KH, is because it gets a lot more media coverage then most games. The reason square games tend to be hyped, is because square has the money. Especially with KH, since Disney is backing them. So when you add famous celebrities as well, like Hikaru Utada, you get a ton of people interested. So I really can't blame them for getting caught up in the hype as well. Also, from what I heard KH2 is pretty fun, and probably what most gamers would look for in a game. To some, the story is not really important.
Anyway, I don't find the reviews entirely horrible, except for the one quote Camus pointed out. Sophita pretty much covered it nicely though. From what I'm seeing, they are praising Suikoden 5 for it's story. I don't think they are disappointed with the story itself. Other then the slow start, which is understandable. Still, the story itself isn't enough to give it a great review. So it's not really surprising to me that it wasn't given a high review.
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