Comparing Suikoden 5's Strategist with Others (Split Topic)

[Loner Prime]

Hey I'm sorry for mentionning Zhuge Liang in the first page of this tread. I didn't know it would cause such a mess :P

[Vextor]

I'm in agreement with Calagatha Seizar here; Zhuge Liang is a bit over-rated. He's treated as a "strategist god" but that has a lot to do with exaggerations and fictional accounts added within the Romance of the Three Kingdoms. In actual history, Zhuge Liang was at best an "above average" strategist. He is the favorite of many because of the popularity of ROTK as a novel, and has very little to do with Zhuge Liang's exploits in actual history. For example, the famous Battle of the Red Wall is credited to Zhuge Liang in ROTK, but in actual history, it's known that this was Zhou Yu's accomplishment.

Not only that, but Zhuge Liang's repeated northern campaign was pointless and he himself knew this. He only did this because it was Liu Bei's dying will; that's not very pragmatic. As a result, he was routinely defeated by Sima Yi.

Zhuge Liang can be credited with a number of inventions concerning siege warfare as well as improving methods of logistics, and also for maintaining and developing land within the domains of the Shu Empire, but his military campaigns were unsuccessful. Of course, withough Zhuge Liang, Liu Bei would have been destroyed much earlier, but Zhuge Liang merely prolonged the inevitable.

Liu Bei's ancestor, Liu Pang (the first Han Emperor) was in a similar situation, where he escaped into Shu after suffering a number od defeats by the hands of Xiang Wu, but his strategists, such as Zhang Liang, Xiao He, and Han Xin allow him to build back his forces and in the end defeat Xiang Wu, despite the fact that Xiang Wu also had an exceptionally skilled strategist called Fan Zang. Based on these facts, one can say that Liu Pang's chief strategist, Zhang Liang, is better than Zhuge Liang (Zhang Liang coordinated overall strategy, while Xiao He took care of internal matters and logistics, while Han Xin managed the generals). Zhang Liang successfully defeated enemies through cunning strategy (especially by sowing distrust between Fan Zang and Xiang Yu). The only reason he is not as popular is because a popular novel was never written about that period in time.

In terms of name value, "Sun Tzu" (which is "Sun Wu") is a lot more popular as a household name for military strategy compared to Zhuge Liang. For one thing, there's actually very little we know about Zhuge Liang's strategic thoughts beside a small treatiese he wrote and was later edited by his disciples. Meanwhile, Sun Wu wrote his masterpiece which still sells like hotcakes. Sun Pin wrote his own military strategy manual, which was discovered in 1972.

However, the most archetypal strategist in Chinese history (or folklore) is Lu Shang, also known as the Tai Gong Wang (The Archduke's Dream Come True). He helped a duke reclaim his land from a treacherous king back in the 11th century BC, and is himself the author of a poliicsl strategy/morality text called Liu Tao (Six Secret Teachings). His name "Tai Gong Wang" is often used as a metaphore for "my best advisor."

Anyhow, if you look into actual history instead of all the hype generated by the novels, you'll see an entirely different picture about who's likely a better strategist. Sima Yi often gets treated like an incompetent coward who runs away at so much a mention of Zhuge Liang's name, but the fact is that he defeated Zhuge Liang more than once, and in the end defeated both Shu and Wu, and even launched a coup to take over Wei, and installed his grandson as emperor (although he may have been dead by then, that was his plan). That takes a lot of smarts, especially considering the fact that nobody was able to accomplish that before him with the sole exception of Ching Shih Huang Ti (The first emperor of Chin) and Liu Pang (Wang Mang's Xin Dynasty was a different situation).

There's many other strategists in Chinese history who various people would argue are "better than Zhuge Liang" as well. There are strategists who never lost a single battle, and others who defeated enemies without waging an actual war (defeat through diplomacy). Of course, that sort of thing is not very dramatic, so most people don't think of it as "great strategy."

[LaLaLaVinCE]

Woo, long write from SARS, great points...but I still have my own thinking in this topic, "Is Zhuge really that brilliant?" Besides this, I also add in some of my opinion on which character in Suikoden I think they look like... :mrgreen:

Well, different people have different POV, in "San Guo Zhi", which is the real history of Three Kingdoms, Battle of Redcliff was not only credited to Zhou Yu, but to both strategists. So I believed the fact that, it created brilliant ideas when more people are thinking. The way he acted made me think of Shu in Suikoden II, hehe...he is like a shadow of Zhuge.

Liu Bei, and Liu Bang (1st Emperor of Han Dynasty), they are not the kind of smart guys, not really good in fighting, as well as using tactics in warfare, but both of them are good in using people, esp made their followers willing to die for them. The used of Han Xin by Liu Bang, made him eliminated Xiang Yu, and became the Emperor of Han Dynasty. Of cos, as SARS mentioned, Zhang Liang, Xiao He contributions cannt be forgoten. Liu Bei used of Zhuge and Pang Tong Made him once owned the Jin province and Yi province. Both characters reminds me of the Heroes we used in Suikoden series, dun you think so? But our Heroes is soOo good in fighting~ :*laugh*:

Jiang Zi Ya, also known as Tai Gong Wang, was also one of the famous strategist in Chinese history, his famous story of waiting the Duke of West Ji Chang is an epic. He started his advisor life at the age of 70+ made him the oldest strategist in the ancient China. To me, he is like Raja in Suikoden V. Jiang later helped Ji Fa to established Zhou Dynasty, never mentioned there were still alot of good strategists rising up in the later period, Guan Zhong, Yue Yi, Sun Bin and Pang Juan were some of the examples...

In both "Shi Ji" and "San Guo Zhi", Sima Yi was defeated many times by Zhuge, he nearly lost his life when Shu army almost reach Luo Yang. If were to compare, I still think Zhuge is far more wiser than Sima. BUT, one thing I gonna agree with SARS, Sima Yi often gets treated like an incompetent coward who runs away, NO! He did that because he is smart. Unlike Zhuge, too much concern for Liu Bei's dying will, even he himself knew Liu Chan is not a wise ruler, he still try to help him. Which ends up he got so much "barrier" when he attacked Wei for 7 times (It almost success in a few times). But anyway, that is my POV...people may not agree with me, but its up to individual... :D

[Vextor]

Now back to the topic.

Lucretia as a strategist seems to be a mix of Leon Silverberg's pragmatism, "minimum casualties" rule, and "let your leader do what they want" rule along with Shu's "I won't tell you everything" and "I will do things behind your back" rule. Throw in the "I'm already a household name and thus I have many friends who will join upon hearing my name" rule that Mathiu had and the "You don't have to jump over the Moon to recruit me" rule of Caesar, and you get Lucretia.

There's a lot more focus (plot-wise) on supply lines, cooperation between factions, political strategy, and mind-games rather than out-on-the-field tactics.

[Leon Silverberg]

[melange]

[Son of Liberty]

[Vextor]

You clearly don't understand Leon Silverberg's character if you think he's a "blind follower." That's farther from truth than it can possibly be in a million trillion years.

[Son of Liberty]

I agree with you that I didn't really understands Leon because I usually don't pay much attention to him when I played 1 & 2. Still, I would consider him a realist just like Albert Silverberg.

Anyway. Among the Silverbergs I like Mathiu the most. Unlike any strategist, he was neither a civil officer or a money loving merchant. He turned into a pacifist after facing so much bloodshed. He in fact, contributes his intelligence in a good way, that is educating the children. Making sure that they won't be soldiers. However, his fate as a Silverberg force him into battle again.

I like him because he behaved like a commoner, a polite man. Unlike Shu, who is always arrogant. And even force Apple to beg him to join. And give a task which is almost impossible as a condition( of course, the party opened the water gate.). I even remember he once said," follow my orders and do as say and you can defeat the Highland Army. Don't believe in me and you'll be the loser." I wonder if there's any strategist in history that is as arrogant as him? not even Eleanor or Lucretia would say that.

I have a question. Did Mathiu ever really regretted for being a Silverberg?

[mumbay]

Well i haven't played the game yet but from the art work i say that Lucretia writes down most of her tactics so i think that she has her book memorized and uses it for reference and fix it so that the tactics will work with current problems

[Nameless Wanderer]

Dunno if I'm terribly late, but I think that Albert Silverberg is really not getting mentioned pretty well in comparison with Lucretia.

I, for one, think that Albert's a great strategist. (S3 spoiler) He practically engineered the Second Fire Bringer War (Keepers of the Flame, for those who care) to get him a posh desk job somewhere. He used Luc, Harmonia, and the entire Grasslands as a tool for his own gain. I was quite surprised about this development. Everything was calculated by him in Suikoden 3 (from my POV, even the losses) until the very end in that he had Luc get eliminated by Hugo and the others.

A guy like Albert (One who possesses a "visionary instinct" if something as such existed) could probably match up with Lucretia but it does seem that Lucretia has godly foresight as well. I've finished the S5 game and I can say that Lucretia can give her predecessors a run for their money. The Ceras Ruins strategy was masterclass. Her plan only struck me when I already was thinking about how we were going to reclaim the base from a superior pincer force. Then, it became obvious after the talk with Zweig. She's uber-smart if she thought so many moves ahead.

The thing that's wonderful in the Suikoden world is the strategic work. Makes you think well, ....and well, Suikoden 5's strategies were really realistic, considering where they were and what they had at the time.

Sorry about a long first post.
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//Mahou Furyou Nagima! - Magister Nagi Magi//

[Stampede]

Lucretia reminds me a lot of Caesar, really. It's part her way of maintaining a smile as something to think behind while making her approachable, and the way that she avoids killing the enemy if possible. In the Suikoden 3 Manga, Caesar actually talks at length about how important it is to minimize enemy casualties (I know, not technically canon, but it doesn't contradict the story in any way and it jives with his character).

However, she also, at times, has a way of reminding me of Albert, especially when she asserts that a Strategist must never apologize for anything except in the utmost secrecy, lest they undermine confidence in the army leadership.

(Of course, I have to get the good ending to begin finalizing my pet theory about a connection between them).
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Continue to push until it has given, by the way.

[Earthquake923]

[Hawk Thanatos]

She's very good at predicting what the enemy will do, probably the best of the strategists at that.

In terms of her plans, they're good but you got to take into account how much more freedom you have with the new strategy battle system (I love it!)

[Child of The Sea God]