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| Nature or Nurture |
| Just Nature |
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18% |
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| Just Nurture |
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| Both - but more nature |
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| Both - but more nurture |
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| Equally Both |
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Rune hunter
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 Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 11:31 am Post subject: |
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| In fact, I've read studies that each time a woman gives birth to a boy child, the chances of each subsequent male child being gay increases by 10% or something (I forget the exact figures), due to something about her hormones reacting with the male child's antibodies in her womb. |
Actual i read something about this too. I read it in "the economist" magazine. Heh, i also remember reading on another forum that is for gays/bis that many of they said it was nature who made them gay/bi. That if they could they would choose otherwise. |
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kuwaizair
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Trevoke wrote: |
It's nature.
There is observed behavior of homosexual behavior in sheep and in.. what was that other creature.. sea lions? I forget, I always forget the other name.. And that's just what's been observed so far.
Oh, I forgot that homosexuality has also been observed in the human. |
I saw a few articals on it, Sheep seem to be the big thing. And dolphins. Some dolphins make homosexual pair bonds that last life times, they will get together and mate (and sometimes gang rape females) but the M/M or F/F bonds are differnt. These seem to be studied in Bottlenosed dolphins.
Bonobos chimp culture is matarical and non violent, they settle stress and disputes with sexual behavior. Everyone is Involved.
I think some bats are gay.
so it has to be nature right? Dolphions have sex for fun, even if they just shoot buzz waves to genital slits, but you'd think 'they are stupid animals" and can you really compaire gay animals to gay people? Because they don't have "morals/socioty" like people do? or religion?
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Arevus
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:54 am Post subject: |
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I'm a big believer in nurture, which correct me if I'm wrong, is experiences you've had when you were brought up and how you're brought up. I do not believe that people are born a homosexual or heterosexual, that it is not a pre-determined fate. In my opinion it is a choice an individual makes using experience while growing up..
My friend is a vegetarian by choice. His parents did not force him to become one, he does not oppose the slaughter of livestock for food. He just had a bad experience when he was a child with meat and made the choice to not eat meat again. It's the same way with choosing to be a heterosexual or a homosexual. A past experience could lead you to choose being one or the other. A guy with five brothers is less influenced by femininity as a guy with five sisters is. That's not to say the guy with five sisters is guaranteed to choose homosexuality over heterosexuality, he is just raised by female figures and is more exposed to femininity then masculinity.
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Firefly
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, but I don't think femininity or masculinity has anything to do with sexual orientation-- there are plenty of very masculine gay men and plenty of effeminate gay men, and the same for lesbians... just because you were raised around girls does nothing. Like I said in a previous post, my gay boyfriend has 4 brothers with whom he is very close, and he's still gay... and he's just as "manly" as them, if not "manlier"
And being gay is nothing like choosing to be a vegetarian. It's apple and oranges, you can't compare them.
I've said before and I'll say it again that I think the only "nurture" that can turn a straight person gay would be sexual abuse, because that can really mess with someone on a psychological level. In other words, I think somebody needs a major traumatic experience like that in order to "turn gay"... not something as simple as having a lot of sisters.
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Fu Su Lu
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Firefly wrote: |
| Yeah, but I don't think femininity or masculinity has anything to do with sexual orientation-- there are plenty of very masculine gay men and plenty of effeminate gay men, and the same for lesbians... just because you were raised around girls does nothing. Like I said in a previous post, my gay boyfriend has 4 brothers with whom he is very close, and he's still gay... and he's just as "manly" as them, if not "manlier" |
Agred with Yoyo
| Firefly wrote: |
| I've said before and I'll say it again that I think the only "nurture" that can turn a straight person gay would be sexual abuse, because that can really mess with someone on a psychological level. In other words, I think somebody needs a major traumatic experience like that in order to "turn gay"... not something as simple as having a lot of sisters. |
Come on old man, what are you saying?? Nurture is too what you are instilled when you are kiddo. Some people have, very defined what they like or dont, but most people have not such 'strong personalities' when they are little, so they could be influenced.
I like women, but who could say If i had been instilled when i was a little boy that I had to like boys? *Damn, scary thought :*laugh*:*
And about the traumatic experiences, everybody reacts to them in different ways. Rage, depression, fear to contact,...etc, etc
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Amyral
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Firefly wrote: |
| I've said before and I'll say it again that I think the only "nurture" that can turn a straight person gay would be sexual abuse, because that can really mess with someone on a psychological level. In other words, I think somebody needs a major traumatic experience like that in order to "turn gay"... not something as simple as having a lot of sisters. |
I don't think it's entirely nature and there hasn't really been anything convincing that shows that's it's all nature. Nurture is everything environmental, which is more or less everything that happens beyond the conception. I don't think it's as simple as having a lot of sisters, I think the types and nature of relationships a person has and is exposed to can effect it. Not in a simple, "I choose" etc. way, but in a subconscious way with how people view others of the same and opposite gender. It's not always the case, but I think there are outside influences.
It's certainly not an exact science in what gives people their sexual preferences. I certainly don't think the only environmental factor that could possibly have any influence is abuse.
Last edited by Amyral on Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:11 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Calvin
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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I think its probably a combination of both, in all honesty. Some people may have been born that way, others may have developed to like their own sex more. Some people may have come to their current sexual preference by way of both sides of the spectrum.
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| And being gay is nothing like choosing to be a vegetarian. It's apple and oranges, you can't compare them. |
Nah, I think they can be compared. But, being a vegetarian might not always be a choice either. Some people may be allergic to meat, some people may just not like the taste. I know someone who doesn't like the taste and texture of meat and never has, and so he is a vegetarian--something he was "born" with. It doesn't always have to be something that happened to you or the way you grew up--sometimes, you just "are." In that way, I think they can be compared.
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| I've said before and I'll say it again that I think the only "nurture" that can turn a straight person gay would be sexual abuse, because that can really mess with someone on a psychological level. |
I think there are more ways to become gay that that. What if, as a child you were raised by your mother, leaving you with no father figure in your life. There is no abuse in such a childhood, but at the same time, you would grow up craving that male presence in your life. Whether that would manifest itself into becoming gay is another question--it may, or it might not. Another theory I've heard is if you've had a weak father and a strong mother. What if, as a man, you had many bad experiences with women, and not neccesarily of a sexually abusive nature?
Anyways, as I said I think it is most likely a combination of both.
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kuwaizair
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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too bad we can't experment with children, you know raise some boys viod of any knowlage of heterosexual realtionships, and saturate him with 'gay stuff', you know make him meterosexual, show him pictures and live guys kissing, some gay porn, give him Ken dolls, and the same with some girls, only with lesbian stuff and see how many will well, not gravatatie twords what ever.
As for nurture, many people don't like their kids being gay, so they hurt them, yell at them, and send them to 'un-gay' camps to 'cure them'. The culture says its nurture.
If pedophilia wasn't a no-no in socioty would you wonder if its how somoene was raised or born if they are an adult and are sexualy atteracted to kids? Though I think -that- might still count as a mental illness. If a socioty has no qualms on homosexual realtionships, that is one thing, so would that prove you can make someone gay? I've been asked if I wanted to be a lesbian/might be one by guys when i told them I don't find a lot of guys attractive, because I lack that "must hump all men" I'm a Lesbian? Because I have my own taste in men? go figure huh?
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Firefly
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Zonder wrote: |
Nah, I think they can be compared. But, being a vegetarian might not always be a choice either. Some people may be allergic to meat, some people may just not like the taste. I know someone who doesn't like the taste and texture of meat and never has, and so he is a vegetarian--something he was "born" with. It doesn't always have to be something that happened to you or the way you grew up--sometimes, you just "are." In that way, I think they can be compared.
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In that light, then yeah, I'd have to agree with you, they are some comparisons that can be drawn.
| Zonder wrote: |
| I think there are more ways to become gay that that. What if, as a child you were raised by your mother, leaving you with no father figure in your life. There is no abuse in such a childhood, but at the same time, you would grow up craving that male presence in your life. Whether that would manifest itself into becoming gay is another question--it may, or it might not. Another theory I've heard is if you've had a weak father and a strong mother. What if, as a man, you had many bad experiences with women, and not neccesarily of a sexually abusive nature? |
I just hate that kind of thinking, it's so archaic to me. I mean, Freud is the one who started that "theory" in what, the late 1800's/early 1900's? And it has just stuck since then. Who knows, I wouldn't say it's impossible for an absent father and domineering mother to turn their otherwise straight son gay, but I think it's highly unlikely. I guess that whole argument hits a sour note with me because then people like Exodus international use that as an argument that homosexuality is not natural and can and should be cured. I know a lot of gay men, and as far as I know, they don't fall into the absent father/strong mother case. But anything is possible...
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Sniper_Zegai
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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Alot if not all ex-gay minestries and groups try and say that being gay is the result of an absent father figure or abuse from your father. I think this may play a role in anyones life as to what they demand from a relationship but I dont think at all that it would determine sexuality, I just dont see the basis for it? Its like saying if you have an absent mother that your more likely to be straight than gay? Obviously this cant be admitted becuase being straight is the norm and admitting this would also mean that being gay is something you are born with.
The main thing I hate about this theory though is that when gay people say that they had great parental relationships ex-gay groups just brush it off and say that they are lying or just simply ignore it.
One preist described being gay to being like an alchoholic which I thought was a horrible thing to say. And as for Freuds theory, it was brought out in a time when we did'nt know much about genetics and there was still an overwhelming amount of stigma about being gay so there were'nt many people to conduct psychological tests and for people who did come out during that period it would have been much easier to say "Its because my father abused me" than to say "I was born this and you should accept it".
By the way Zonder and Firefly I know this was'nt the point of your posts just now I was just commenting on it, it was'nt targeted at your specific conversation. Just saying to avoid confusion although comments are always welcome.
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Omerta
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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| I believe that it is a mixture between the both of them. But I think that nuture has more to do with it though. |
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Admiral Ackbar
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 2:00 am Post subject: |
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I love how every straight person I meet says it's nurture, but 90% of the gay people I meet say it's nature. Now which side of that argument do you think has the most intimate knowledge of the subject? Of course, it's stupid to think that any behavior (especially in the realm of sexual attraction) is 100% either nature or nurture...but ask any gay and they'll likely tell you it's overwhelmingly nature.
It has to do with an outside perspective. As a straight person, you can only observe homosexuals and bisexuals, and chances are that most of you aren't close with any. For people like myself, we live as gays/bis...we know more than anyone (obviously) how it is to grow up gay and feel gay feelings in a straight world. I can personally say that my urges for other men appeared as soon as puberty did. I never wanted to be gay, and there weren't any experiences in my childhood that could have "turned" me.
I was raised by a single mother and a grandmother. But so was my older brother, and he's heterosexual and very homophobic. And of most of the gay people I know, they have good relationships with both parents (up until coming out, anyways).
Homosexuality is not caused by the absence of a father. That's just f*cking ridiculous, seriously.
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Sun's Vicegerent
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 8:17 am Post subject: |
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I don't know where the 'absence of a father' story came up from, but that's just a really stupid theory. I'm gay and I have two brothers, and I have a mother and a father.. and my two brothers are pretty straight, the last time I checked.
I'm not especially flamboyant, but yes, I am sexually attracted to Men. So.. obviously that theory doesn't work anymore now, does it?
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Tony Stark
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 9:13 am Post subject: |
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I know these idential twins, Ian and Ethan. One of them is gay and one of them is straight. Now, Ethan is a little weird and flamboyant, true, but he is attracted to women. If there was a supposed "gay gene" these men should share a sexual orientation. Nay, more, we also could qualify this scenario to say that one of them is gay and does not know it and the other is straight and does not know it, but I would say both are unlikely considering how close each twin is the other, and how neither disrespect the other based on sexual orientation (outside of the occasional joke). I am not saying that it is not nature at all, but I do not believe in the "gay gene", although I beleive that some people might as well have been born gay.
I ultimately don't think homosexuality is a choice though, even if it is soley nature or nurture, but I certainly think it's a lot more nurture than nature, mainly because I believe in nurture over nature in almost everything.
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Sniper_Zegai
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 9:42 am Post subject: |
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| Sun's Vicegerent wrote: |
I don't know where the 'absence of a father' story came up from, but that's just a really stupid theory. I'm gay and I have two brothers, and I have a mother and a father.. and my two brothers are pretty straight, the last time I checked.
I'm not especially flamboyant, but yes, I am sexually attracted to Men. So.. obviously that theory doesn't work anymore now, does it? |
I got that from the Dr. Phil show where a preist was "formerly" gay apparently went to one of these groups and was 'cured'. There was a gay person who had tried to be straight and just could'nt do it and had simply accepted himself.
The Preist said that being gay is brought on by having an absent father figure or an abusive father figure. Apparently alot of ex-gay groups say this and the person defending gay rights said he had an excellent relationship with his father even when he came out. The Preist just ignored it and said something like "You have to want to not be gay" which just seemed stupid to me. I dont know why people cant see these strange anti gay groups for what they are.
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