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Arenegeth
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 Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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Ahem, I seem to have planted the seed of controversy once again...
Eh, John pretty much covered my points, but let me clear something.
I have nothing against the English people in general; heck I'm moving to England in 2007 if everything goes well, I'm simply rather annoyed with their arrogance when it comes to their football team.
Do you know how many English bought tickets for the Euro 2004 Final match even before the competition started?
They had this arrogant behavior that they were going to win for sure, I mean why?
For winning a World Cup they technically didn't deserve decades ago?
Even if they could win anyway they didn't, it will remain along with the Maradona travesty commonly known as the hand of god as the "unfair" world cup matches...
If the tournament didn't take place in England I'm sure that that goal wouldn't have counted, and I'm also sure that if it was the hand of another player and not Maradona that wouldn't have count either, but that is my personal conspiracy ridden opinion.
I don't think I mentioned that the rest of the UK teams are arrogant because as I see them they are not, probably because they haven't seen any sort of real success in the past.
Now because of that behavior, that "we are favorites to win everyone else sucks" and the violent outbreaks every time they lose I choose to "punish" them by always rooting for the other side, until they finally understand their place.
This in my eyes is similar to say... Uruguay...
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Aurelien
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 3:58 am Post subject: |
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I think there's another way to see things, Arenegeth. Many England fans bought ticket for Euro 2004 finals? So what? That doesn't necessarily mean that they're arrogant, they're really fanatics about football, so if England do go to the finals, they would definitely got not tickets if they didn't buy early.
And I think many fans, especially since England is no weakling in football world, would not really going to say "Yeah, I expect my team to lose the game" when asked because a fan is supposed to support the team. And England is a strong team, having many quality players. So it's normal if they are confident and supportive. Don't confuse confidence and arrogance because they're really different though similar.
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Arenegeth
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 7:09 am Post subject: |
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Ticket buying in that massive (well relative) amount was only of England fans, and in this case it wasn't because they were football fanatics, but because they were sure that England would be in the final match (England fans didn't buy that much amount of final tickets in any competition it was the hype ridden Euro 2004), that is arrogance, Spain was confident, they failed but they didn't say we are sure to win in an arrogant manner "we are one of the favorites" is what Spain fans let out.
And yes confidence is a different thing (like Italy had in the 2004 Euro despite result) and arrogance is another.
It wasn't the Italians that made a ruckus in Lisbon when Italy failed to go out of the group...
I remember a lot of English around here that were also on the arrogant hype like this was going to be an England Euro...
That is why I don't like it, and that is why I would like the England team to fail, until they learn some humility.
"We go there to win" is confidence "we're sure to win" is arrogance...
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Goldy
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 8:29 am Post subject: |
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| That is why I don't like it, and that is why I would like the England team to fail, until they learn some humility. |
Just how many times have England failed already and still have not learned? Alot. And will continue to be the way they are, what will the fans be like when England actually win a tournament? Just imagine it! |
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Exile
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 10:12 am Post subject: |
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| I don't think I mentioned that the rest of the UK teams are arrogant |
You said British people were arrogant about it, that incorporates more than the English, it was a harmless mistake that I chose to pick out in a joking way - nothing to worry about.
As for buying tickets before the match do you really claim to know the thinking of our fans in that they were sure we would make the final? Of course you don't, they hope it but they can of course never be sure. We love our football in England and I'm sure many of the fans thought there was a good chance and decided to take it so if we did reach the final they could be a part of something a bit special for us. Failing to make the final many probably planned to sell on their tickets and cut their losses or go on to enjoy a good game of football regardless who was playing it.
I won't defend any violent outbreaks as you call them, they're a sad thing to witness over sports but England have a reputation that magnifies incidents I seem to find. England fans rioted in that tournament and were threatened with banishment from the next competition, Turkey fans rioted and as much damage was done - the governing body called this 'Joyful celebration' and threatened no action whatsoever.
I can only agree you wouldn't want to be in England when we finally do win something, everyone gets on the bandwagon like with the cricket but multiplied fifty times I'd imagine.
All that said you do make a lot of sweeping generalisations and I believe you have a very bad impression of English football fans from some bad examples you've met and media outlets. The average fan doesn't assume we will win - we've noticed 40 years is a long time to go without winning anything as well as you have, the average fan does think we have enough talented players to win something on our day but there are still better teams out there. I don't think any of my friends would try to argue we were the best team in the world or that we certainly are going to win the next major tournament.
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Arenegeth
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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Yes Not British, English, and my mistake in correct wording yep.
Yes, I remember Englishmen selling final tickets to Greeks at dodgy prices, eh, I don't particularly criticize here, I'm sure that was in a limited number than the local media led me to believe, perhaps due to impractical reasons...
And yeah what the heck was that in Turkey with Switzerland, they should have banned them for at least one world cup and Euro...
Many countries are passionate when they win in sport, so was Brazil in the World cup and Greece in the Euro, the English don't have a monopoly in that. :D
I won't argue that my impressions are wrong due to misled information, but that is how the local media make it look...
Of course you understand that my opinion can't change by some clarifications from one English fan, though I will be more weary of what feed I get from the local media from now on, I will see how they act as a team as well...
Usually I'm with the underdog (since I don't support my nation of origin or residence, I rather dislike them but when it comes to football I'm neutral), I wouldn't like Brazil to win a match in this century, they are a good team they put up a good show, but I don't want any competition be a one team show, there's no excitement that way, Greece stirred things up in the Euro, I hope someone will do the same in the World Cup...
In a world cup final between England and Brazil, though hard pressed I will root for England...
And after reading your comment for Group E you can understand why I'm taking everything you say with a pinch of salt...
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Exile
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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I was all ready to let the conversation die at this point until you said;
| Arenegeth wrote: |
And after reading your comment for Group E you can understand why I'm taking everything you say with a pinch of salt... |
Now I can understand you thinking I'm biased, I am of course to an extent, we all are whether we acknowledge the bias or not, however my comments are no more or less strong than anything the non-English posters have said. You included.
Here's a collection of the England related talk;
| Goldmember, Irish wrote: |
| ]England should qualify as winners from this group, but it will not be easy with Croatia, Russia and maybe Isreal if they play like they can. |
| Fundertaker, Portugese wrote: |
| Also, England did got a very nice group too. |
| Black Pesmerga, uhm, Part time Aussie! wrote: |
| England got the easy group. They should top the group here. And I dare say even got the perfect record if Sam Allardyce, the master, the bomb, the sensation, the fatso, took over from Svenny. |
| An Englishman I presume wrote: |
Yay England my team Mr. Green
at last we got an easy group so we can easly qualify while the other teams will fight hard battles to get the second place . |
| Arenegeth wrote: |
| England, for first place |
Despite your bias against England which you admitted you pick us for first place.
So people pretty much agree that England should top the group but Russia and Croatia will be tough and one call that Israel could cause problems. What I don't understand is you saying you take what I say with a grain of salt because of my comments, take what I say with a grain of salt because I'm biased if you want I'm trying not to appear it but don't create false justifications.
| PF, English wrote: |
| England should get through, should. It's always hard commenting on your own team I find since I'm too tempted to say all those teams should be beaten by us when in reality no team wins all the games it should. I'm happy with the draw though and expect qualification. I demand qualification. |
Here I've admitted I'm biased and I say I deman my team to qualify everyone seems to think we're capable so why shouldn't I expect it at this point? It's all quite agreed we got a good group - we even avoided the problematic Swedish this time, for once!
I also say that we should be able to beat all those teams and I would say the same things in this regard about the Portugese in their group and the Dutch in theirs. I even say that in reality this never happens, I expect England, the Dutch, the Portugese all to lose games or at the least draw some.
| PF, English wrote: |
| Russia could be problematic and so could Croatia but I think they're certainly beatable by a side of England's calibre (when they decide to play like it anyway). |
Here I say if England don't play up to scratch they will lose games, I say Russia and Croatia are teams that can beat us, by problematic I mean these are the teams I believe are capable of beating us in terms of qualification positions not just in a one off game. So basically no I do not understand why you should take what I'm saying with a pinch of salt based on my group E comments. Also I don't expect you to change your opinion at all I just like to whine about things I have no control and to rant sometimes!
| Arenegeth wrote: |
| n a world cup final between England and Brazil, though hard pressed I will root for England... |
I'd support England too but I'd bet on Brazil to win!
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Arenegeth
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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Ah, not the quote thing again, eh before I try to explain my self, let me say that in Sports, Religion and political issues I always spur controversy, some times contradictive statements, and I would rather stay out of debates, and arguments for that subjects...
With that said let me explain the point of my statement.
You are biased, there's no denying that, you are not denying that, no one is denying that is natural to support your home team.
They reason I called upon your comment is because of the actual words used not the point which was the same as everyone else including me.
Analysis:
| Quote: |
| It's always hard commenting on your own team I find since I'm too tempted to say all those teams should be beaten by us when in reality no team wins all the games it should. |
You declare that you are tempted to say that your team would beat every match and then you say that in reality "no team wins the games it should", that has a taste of arrogance for me, why?
Because you make it sound that England should win all games, I said that they will qualify for sure, probably first, but I never said that they will win all games, why should they?
The other teams are considered lesser teams than England but why should they beat them when playing away?
Why is it a must, the ‘are bad days and good days, a bad referee lots of things can happen, why all this one sided view?
Because you are based of course, we settled that, you comments themselves at least as I read them have that sense of arrogance, that is why I should take everything you say with a pinch of salt.
Thus a biased opinion which is not objective based on rather natural emotions of supporting your own team...
Also the demand qualification part seems arrogant, I would demand from my team if I supported one to play good and give it all, not to qualify, even if they seem worthy, everything is good on paper and statistics and good players but it's in the pitch that you show what you are.
| Quote: |
Russia could be problematic and so could Croatia but I think they're certainly beatable by a side of England's calibre (when they decide to play like it anyway).
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"England's caliber", they are supposed to be what I would consider a good team, but on away matches for me everyone can lose, even "when they decide to play like it anyway"...
To summarize I thought that your comet had a slight dose of arrogance in it self, and that it was naturally biased.
So I can't consider your opinion like someone that has no strings attached to England and not particular preference to the English team...
Nothing more nothing less, any need to drag this further?
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I'd support England too but I'd bet on Brazil to win!
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I'll bet England because of the better odds.
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Aurelien
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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This is blown out of proportion in my opinion. All (well most) fans root for the team/player that is from their nation. And when asked, of course most would say that they want the team/player that they support to win everything if they could. Not saying that they would, but hoping that they would.
I'll just use an example of the latest thing in tennis, the Australian Open men's finals between Marcos Baghdatis and Roger Federer. Baghdatis is not a really well-known tennis player from Cyprus. He ranked in the 50s when the tournament started and he went on to the finals by beating Andy Roddick (seeded #2), Ivan Lubjicic (seeded #7), and David Nalbandian (seeded #4). In the finals, he's facing Roger Federer (world #1, seeded #1, winner of 6 grand slams before that, the man that is considered "on a whole different level than other men tennis players"). Yet, Baghdatis' supporters said that he'd win the finals prior to the game. Is that arrogance? I don't think so. It's only a way of showing your support.
The same goes to football too. You'd love to support your team and you'd like to think that your team would beat everyone else (heck, I even said that Indonesia would beat Australia when we played each other and Australia ended up schooling Indonesia to a 3-0 defeat). If you're a supporter of a team and you answered "Well I think my team is going to lose" .... then you're not a real supporter because supporters do support for the team, even when they're down or about to lose.
English fans buying the Euro 2004 finals tickets .... so what? Do you honestly say that England had no chance to be in the finals back then? Anyone with football knowledge would put England as "one of the favorites", and since the English are the supporters, they'd do whatever they could. Buying finals tickets, why not? Would you rather wait until England got to the Semi-Final and then you're left with bad seats? Keep in mind that we're talking about the English fans here, people who live/breathe/cough football. They love their football like a chef loves their food.
And I think the whole "should win" thing is a load of bollocks. I don't see how that comment shows PF's arrogance. I think we all can agree to say that England *is* the strongest team in their group. Hence, theoritically speaking, they should be able to beat everyone else because they are the strongest team in the group (the stronger should be able to beat the weaker). Hence, PF said that they should win all their games. But at the same time PF acknowledged the fact that despite being theoritically the strongest team in the group, England would probably not win all of their games because of the exact same reasons as you mentioned yourself, Arenegeth (such as "Away game", "Bad refereeing", etc).
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Arenegeth
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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*sigh*
Perhaps then I can't understand how to it is to support a certain team, and I find that sort of behavior arrogant, from my neutral point of view, so its not PF's fault is mine everyone happy now can we move along?
And though I supported the underdog, I still thought that Federer would win, the man is indeed in a different level, and still I hoped that the other guy would win, but I was realistic about it, so people forgive me for not understanding this team support thing when it comes to sports, it's just my way of thinking I suppose...
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Aurelien
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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I think there are two types of fans, Arenegeth. One is the fanatics and one is the logical. You just happen to be the logical one, while most might be the fanatics. Even PF falls into the logical one because of the "I'd bet on Brazil" comment. He'd expect Brazil to win but he'd support England because of him being an English. This is the exact same situation as your just now comment about "thinking that Federer would win, but hoping that Baghdatis would win" ... so you two are actually having very similar idea with each other. That's why I was actually confused that you two argued with each other.
Anyways, hope this ends here. ^__^
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Koeneloen
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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Group A
Portugal
Poland
Serbia & Mont
Belgium
Finland
Armenia
Azerbaijan
Kazakhstan
Portugal will take the first place in this group, just because they got great individual players and if the coach can make them a team then they are taking that number 1 spot, in second will come down to a fight between Poland, Serbia and Belgium
Group B
France
Italy
Ukraine
SCOTLAND
Lithuania
Georgia
Faroe Islands
France and Italy is the most obvious choice but I think Ukraine can be a good outsider if they play like they did with the WK groups.
Group C
Greece
Turkey
Norway
Bosnia
Hungary
Moldova
Malta
This is the most boring group in my opinion, no top teams in this one. Greece were the last winners but showed some week football in the WK groups, Turkey can play some decent football but I'm no fan of them after the issue with Switzerland. So it's gonna be 2 of those 3 that's gonna qualify
Group D
Czech Republic
Germany
Slovakia
REP OF IRELAND
WALES
Cyprus
San Marino
Czech republic and Germany, they're just the best teams in that poule and have some great players.
Group E
ENGLAND
Croatia
Russia
Israel
Estonia
Macedonia
Andorra
Hoping for Andorra! just kidding:p, England will place easily to the next round if Guus Hiddink will be the coach by then, if not then they will have a hard struggle with the coach they have now. Croatia has some good players and a tight defense so they will qualify too I think
Group F
Sweden
Spain
Denmark
Latvia
Iceland
NORTHERN IRELAND
Liechtenstein
If Spain show what they can they will get first. Sweden is gonna be second they have class players! (Zlatan, Rosenberg if he continues playing like he does at AJAX, Kallstrom can be become one of the best attacking midfielders there is and don't forget Ljungberg also a class player.
Group G
Holland
Romania
Bulgaria
Slovenia
Albania
Belarus
Luxembourg
Holland in first of course gotta support your country eh? With some new fresh players after the WK to replace the retired players they can show some very nice football which will be far to fast for those other countries. Romania or Bulgaria in second place, I'm leaning towards Bulgaria they have some promising players. |
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Fundertaker
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Sweden is gonna be second they have class players! (Zlatan, Rosenberg if he continues playing like he does at AJAX, Kallstrom can be become one of the best attacking midfielders there is and don't forget Ljungberg also a class player. |
Also add Elmander, both of the Farnerud, Edman, Mellberg (if he still plays for the national team) and Isakson and you have a great team in there.
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Koeneloen
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah and Wilhelmsson, Daniel Andersson, Anders Svensson and maybe Bakircioglu he's doing a great job at FC Twente to bad they are low in the league he deserves a good club with his play!
Edit: Forgot Petter Hansson! Great defender! |
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Exile
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| Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Kallstrom can be become one of the best attacking midfielders there is |
Someone's been playing too much football manager where he gets awesome, what's he done so far to support this in real life? Sure he's good but in the Sweden games I've seen him play he's not really been anything special. Maybe I've caught the wrong ones though?
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