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Aurelien
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 Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| Rezard wrote: |
| Yes, it was never hinted in the games, but we should consider the words of the original suikoden creator (and the confirmation of its words when he left) as true, until the game says otherwise. |
This is weird to follow. The game never stated that Yuber-Pesmerga saga would be the end of Suikoden series. Yet, you expect the game to prove otherwise as the only way for you to believe that their conflict isn't the end of the series? Why would the game need to disprove something that they haven't mentioned? It doesn't make sense at all.
What Murayama said was simply an idea. Ideas can change, especially when the idea came from someone who no longer works for the company, and the idea had never been implemented. Plus, it has been years since Murayama left Konami. What is so difficult to understand anyway?
We should consider what Murayama said as true until proven otherwise by the game? That's like an ex-Microsoft employee saying that Microsoft will buy Apple sometime in the future. You believe him just because he worked for Microsoft when he said that? Must we constantly say "Oh but a few years ago, he said that Microsoft will buy Apple, so it must be true until we know for sure that Apple is not selling their company to Microsoft"
I'm not denying that what Murayama said can still be true. However, it is by no means a fact whatsoever, and should not be treated as if it's already true.
| Rezard wrote: |
| Also, note that the final battle, that Luc tried to stop, was a conflict between Order and Chaos, since we know that Yuber=Chaos, there are great chances that what Murayama said is true. |
Also, note that Murayama is no longer working for Konami since Suikoden III ended. As we can see, there was no mention about this thing in Suikoden IV and Suikoden V. Hence, things can change.
Or I'll just ask you this to those who really believe what Murayama said. If Murayama really planned that, and if you believe that it would still happen, then please explain why none of the game ever hinted such importance of Yuber/Pesmerga conflict.
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Rezard
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| Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Ryusei wrote: |
| I am only saying that the timeline doesn't matter for me. I'm not saying that they should continue prequels from now on, but I am just merely stating that I am not bothered by the prequels. |
I understood what you meant Ryusei, but I am concerned konami will prolong needless the series, and if the games lose popularity, they will end it quickly without answering most questions.
Something like Xenosaga, it was supposed to be 6 games long, but because they made a poor game (2) and the series ended early. I don't want that to happen to Suikoden, that's way I would prefer them to start on planning how to end it now, instead of doing too much prequels that are absolutely not connected to anything.
Of course, I think that the popularity the game shows now allows some prequels, I simply don't want them to exaggerate. At best, I'd like to see only more two or three prequels at best.
| Aurelien wrote: |
| Or I'll just ask you this to those who really believe what Murayama said. If Murayama really planned that, and if you believe that it would still happen, then please explain why none of the game ever hinted such importance of Yuber/Pesmerga conflict. |
As I said, it was hinted that Yuber was Chaos and the end was Dharma vs. Chaos. Their conflict is also one of the main suikoden's mysteries and he is a true rune bearer. I wouldn't say he is not important.
If the author said: "this is my plan", we can't say his idea is false or that he will change it without anything. I need some proof!! Why would konami change it? (they confirmed Murayama idea was still on) Do you know any reasons?
We must believe them, until proof wrong. We can't assume it is false out of nowhere. Of course, we can't say it is true either, but we should presume it true, it is the most rational stuff to do.
| Hayashi Ujitsuna wrote: |
| The game will never say otherwise until the end, where it may or may not have anything to do with Pesmerga and Yuber, I can see the scene now. |
The game saying otherwise is their situation being solved before the final game, Persmega killing Yuber or changing his way, etc... |
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Yvl
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| Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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You are ignoring 1 very crucial information, Yvl. Murayama is no longer working for Konami. Murayama is no longer the writer of Suikoden series. Therefore, there is nothing that makes Suikoden to must end like what Murayama wanted it to be.
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You keep saying that, but then it goes back to my earlier point - if he had a plan for the series' story, why would Konami throw all that away? It would only increase the risk of plot loops and inconveniences. You can't just disregard any work he has done for the seires in the past just because he's not there anymore. As I said, you may as well restart the whole series then.
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Who said they have to end it in a dramatic way? Would a normal Suikoden template be that bad as an ending?
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We, the fans, did. :P
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We should consider what Murayama said as true until proven otherwise by the game? That's like an ex-Microsoft employee saying that Microsoft will buy Apple sometime in the future. You believe him just because he worked for Microsoft when he said that? Must we constantly say "Oh but a few years ago, he said that Microsoft will buy Apple, so it must be true until we know for sure that Apple is not selling their company to Microsoft"
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TOTALLY different. This is a story we're talking about, not a real life situation. Yuber can't say, "Screw you Konami, I won't have any part in the ending."
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then please explain why none of the game ever hinted such importance of Yuber/Pesmerga conflict.
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...The ending of Suikoden 3. Luc tries to destroy a true rune in order to stop what would be the ultimate fate of the world. Yuber shows every sign of being an avatar of Chaos, while Pesmerga shows every sign of being an avatar of Dharma. The Dharma/Choas thing is something that cannot change, no matter what - the final battle will involve those forces conflicting (though whether or not either of them will win is another story). This is fate, it isnt going to change because a writer left the team. It's possible we're wrong about Yuber and Pesmerga, but the fact remains that Dharma and Chaos will clash in the end. And considering their personalities, I wouldnt be surprised if Yuber and Pesmerga were there for it as well.
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Of course, I think that the popularity the game shows now allows some prequels, I simply don't want them to exaggerate. At best, I'd like to see only more two or three prequels at best.
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Agreed. Any more than 10 Suikoden games and we'll just be dragging it out longer than it needs to be.
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Ujitsuna
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| Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with you - Aurelien on most points, but that example of Microsoft buying Apple was terrible, stop using those terrible analgoies. :P
| Aurelien wrote: |
| Or I'll just ask you this to those who really believe what Murayama said. If Murayama really planned that, and if you believe that it would still happen, then please explain why none of the game ever hinted such importance of Yuber/Pesmerga conflict. |
Yes, perhaps the idea of Dharma and Chaos was there, but only Yuber was present during the whole game. This leads me to think it wasn't that final battle, and that there is a plot after Suikoden III, and more importantly, perhaps the showdown between Pesmerga and Yuber. |
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AA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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| There is nothing about a showdown between the two ending the series, it simply states that "when the plotline ends" This could mean anything, they might just be planning a nice tea party and that will be the end of it besides it could be 1000's of years after Suikoden 3 that pesmerga finally starts looking in the right place or Yuber finally brews the tea. |
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Ryusei
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| Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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...Am I the only one who doesn't care about the "Suikoden main story?" I mean, you guys have been talking about Yuber and Pesmerga, the ending of the series and whatnot. Does it really matter how many games Konami makes for Suikoden?
I, personally, would rather have more games than few games. You talk about having few prequels to keep on the "main" track of the Suikoden plotline, while I myself don't see any "main" plotline in the first place. Does it really matter wether or not Konami veers away from this main plotline? Suikoden V was not moving along the plotline, but many people liked it. It's not like if it's not going along the "correct path," then the fans wouldn't like it.
I don't think it really matters how long the series lasts. Prequel or no prequel, as long as the quality remains good, it really doesn't matter, does it? Would it be considered "milking" even if the quality is still good? Let Konami milk the Suikoden series all they want then, but just keep the overall quality as good as it's supposed to be. I'd rather have it that way, so that I could still feel the excitement of new Suikoden games and look forward to learning more of the Suikoden world, while not having to worry about playing a bad game. But that's just me, I guess. |
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Yvl
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| Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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don't think it really matters how long the series lasts. Prequel or no prequel, as long as the quality remains good, it really doesn't matter, does it? Would it be considered "milking" even if the quality is still good?
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I can see it now: Suikoden XXXIV: The Rune of Repititon
Seriously, there are only 27 true runes, so unless they start reusing runes (not smart) the series will probably end within the next 5 games or so.
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it simply states that "when the plotline ends" This could mean anything,
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Uh... what? When the plotline ends means "when the plotline ends." I dont see how this could be considered anything other than the end of the series.
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AA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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They reading the bit you quoted in the context of the post. It as a reference to Yuber and Pesmerga...
| I wrote: |
| showdown between the two ending the series, it simply states that "when the plotline ends" |
If i have to spell it out, there is nothing that say that the series will end in a duel between Yuber and Pesmerga, it says that when the plotline OF THE TWO comes to an end, so will the series, for all we know it could be anything.
Why is reusing runes so bad? New bearers could mean new challenges, the rune of punishment for example could have moved from Lazlo to a new enemy or a tenkai with out a true rune like frey could also work. |
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Ley
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| Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Yvl wrote: |
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it simply states that "when the plotline ends" This could mean anything,
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Uh... what? When the plotline ends means "when the plotline ends." I dont see how this could be considered anything other than the end of the series. |
There are many plotlines within Suikoden; Jeanne, Viki, Yuberga. The end of that particular plotline will be just that, the end of the particular aspect of the story. It does not mean the end of the series.
Edit: AA beat me to it.
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Yvl
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| Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, oh I see. But... do you actually have his words verbatim on hand to be able to say that?
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Aurelien
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| Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 12:03 am Post subject: |
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| Rezard wrote: |
| f the author said: "this is my plan", we can't say his idea is false or that he will change it without anything. I need some proof!! Why would konami change it? (they confirmed Murayama idea was still on) Do you know any reasons? |
Where did they confirm that Murayama's idea was still on? As far as we know, Murayama left after Suikoden III being finished. In Suikoden IV, Suikoden Tactics, and Suikoden V (a.k.a all Suikoden games released after Murayama's departure), there was no mention about Yuber/Pesmerga or Dharma/Chaos at all. So where did Konami confirm that Murayama's idea was still on?
| Yvl wrote: |
| You keep saying that, but then it goes back to my earlier point - if he had a plan for the series' story, why would Konami throw all that away? It would only increase the risk of plot loops and inconveniences. You can't just disregard any work he has done for the seires in the past just because he's not there anymore. As I said, you may as well restart the whole series then. |
What plot loops and inconveniences? There was NO plot whatsoever between Yuber and Pesmerga in the games for God's sake. Am I playing a different series than you or something?
Fact: There was no mention about the importance between Yuber and Pesmerga in the game.
Therefore, if Konami scrapped the whole idea about them, there is NO damage done to the game, because there was no mention about such thing to begin with. There was nothing, Yvl. NOTHING.
| Yvl wrote: |
| The ending of Suikoden 3. Luc tries to destroy a true rune in order to stop what would be the ultimate fate of the world. Yuber shows every sign of being an avatar of Chaos, while Pesmerga shows every sign of being an avatar of Dharma. |
I have two points to raise to you. First one, where is Pesmerga in Suikoden III?
Second one, read the bold part, and please explain that to me. What signs did Pesmerga show in the games to make you believe that he's an avatar of Dharma? I'm really curious.
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Rezard
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| Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 8:10 am Post subject: |
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| Aurelien wrote: |
| Where did they confirm that Murayama's idea was still on? As far as we know, Murayama left after Suikoden III being finished. In Suikoden IV, Suikoden Tactics, and Suikoden V (a.k.a all Suikoden games released after Murayama's departure), there was no mention about Yuber/Pesmerga or Dharma/Chaos at all. So where did Konami confirm that Murayama's idea was still on? |
This wasn't mentioned by me, it was stated in this topic by somebody else:
| Himuro wrote: |
Are you serious, Chizen...?
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| The whole "Pesmerga and Yuber final duel" thing may not even be true anymore. Things are forgotten and replaced a lot when games go on past their original creators. I wouldn't be surprised if we never saw the end of their duel. |
Kawano said that the duel is still on. |
| Aurelien wrote: |
I have two points to raise to you. First one, where is Pesmerga in Suikoden III?
Second one, read the bold part, and please explain that to me. What signs did Pesmerga show in the games to make you believe that he's an avatar of Dharma? I'm really curious. |
Well Persmega is "the guy who follows Yuber", his fate is supposed to be strongly linked with Yuber's fate. The detective also states that Persmega, as Yuber is, seems to be not human. You agree that Yuber is important, right? So Persmega should be too.
I don't know why he was not in Suikoden III, but I bet it was to save some fun for later.
| Ryusei wrote: |
| I don't think it really matters how long the series lasts. Prequel or no prequel, as long as the quality remains good, it really doesn't matter, does it? Would it be considered "milking" even if the quality is still good? Let Konami milk the Suikoden series all they want then, but just keep the overall quality as good as it's supposed to be. I'd rather have it that way, so that I could still feel the excitement of new Suikoden games and look forward to learning more of the Suikoden world, while not having to worry about playing a bad game. But that's just me, I guess. |
You seem to be ignoring my point, I'll ask one question: Is it possible to keep quality good, when you reuse the same storyline over and over again?
Let's see, every Suikoden game is as follow: (except S3)
-the hero is 16 year old, mute, peaceful boy
-the hero will be throw into a war
-the boy will lose the battles and the ally leader will die (Odessa, Anabelle, Glen, Arshatat)
-the boy becomes the leader of an army
-after he finds a strategist, he will win most battles
-his best friend dies, if the 108 stars are not collected (Gremio, Nanami,Snowe, Lyon)
-he will have to fight someone close to him, because this person has different point of view.(Teo, Jowy, Snowe,Sialedds)
-every problem is solved by the end of the game, with the destruction of the enemy's leaders.
You know, this formula is fun now, but it will get old, every formula gets old and the game market goes on. Most of us, old fans, already know how Suikoden 6 will be, exactly as the formula goes.
Were Gremio and Nanami's deaths as cool as Lyon's? Was Odessa's death as good as Annabelle or Gleen's? No, because they are only copies from the originals, original > copy.
When Suikoden 6 is release and we are playing it, don't you think we will wonder: " This guy is the closest to the hero, so, how will he die? This guy is my commander against evil now, how will he die for me to take his place?"
My point is: the storyline has become predictable and will become more and more predictable, until it isn't fun anymore. They have to plan an ending to the series or the series will die without one. It is impossible to maintain the quality; they won't be able to do it. |
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Aurelien
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| Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 8:46 am Post subject: |
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| Rezard wrote: |
| This wasn't mentioned by me, it was stated in this topic by somebody else |
I don't know where Himuro got his source from, and I don't doubt if Kawano really did say that. However, I prefer to pay attention more to the product than what the staff said in the past (as far as I know, Kawano was involved in Suikoden IV, but not the rest?). While she might've said that Murayama's idea is still on, the fact remains that there was no development whatsoever about Yuber/Pesmerga saga in the game. If the plan was still on, why did they waste 2 Suikoden games (IV and V) by not including Yuber and Pesmerga in it? If their conflict is SO important, don't you think that Konami would've given more attention to them? Push their story, make the players understand their characters and purpose, and gather the player's attention. But yet, they did nothing. They simply exclude Yuber and Pesmerga.
Believe me, I would LOVE it if Yuber and Pesmerga ended up being important characters like planned (I do like both of them). But right now, judging on how the trend seems to be going ever since Murayama's departure, I really can't say that I still believe that his idea would be a go.
| Rezard wrote: |
| Well Persmega is "the guy who follows Yuber", his fate is supposed to be strongly linked with Yuber's fate. The detective also states that Persmega, as Yuber is, seems to be not human. You agree that Yuber is important, right? So Persmega should be too. |
To be honest with you, I don't really think that Yuber is "important". Not because I don't want to, but I really can't see that from the games at all. In Suikoden I and II, he got no important role at all. He was just there. In Suikoden III, the focus was so heavy on Luc and he barely got anything as well. There is nothing to me that says "Look at me!! I'm Yuber, and I'm important". And once again, when he didn't make any appearance in the last 2 games (while those 2 games could've been the perfect chance for Konami to develop Yuber or Pesmerga), I started to question his importance. Did Konami change their mind?
If you look at the whole series, we know that Konami kept Leknaat, Viki, and Jeane appear in every game. This means that whatever was planned by Konami for those three, they stuck with that idea. The final outcome might change, but they kept those three showing up in every game. But with the absence of Yuber/Pesmerga, one must wonder whether their characters were simply thrown out of the window or not.
If Yuber and/or Pesmerga showed up in Suikoden VI, I'd be very happy, and I'd really hope that they will have significant role.
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Ujitsuna
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| Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 9:09 am Post subject: |
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| Aurelien wrote: |
| Rezard wrote: |
| Well Persmega is "the guy who follows Yuber", his fate is supposed to be strongly linked with Yuber's fate. The detective also states that Persmega, as Yuber is, seems to be not human. You agree that Yuber is important, right? So Persmega should be too. |
To be honest with you, I don't really think that Yuber is "important". Not because I don't want to, but I really can't see that from the games at all. In Suikoden I and II, he got no important role at all. He was just there. In Suikoden III, the focus was so heavy on Luc and he barely got anything as well. There is nothing to me that says "Look at me!! I'm Yuber, and I'm important". And once again, when he didn't make any appearance in the last 2 games (while those 2 games could've been the perfect chance for Konami to develop Yuber or Pesmerga), I started to question his importance. Did Konami change their mind? |
Actually in Suikoden III, I felt he got quite a lot of exposure but admittedly, no character development, what you get at the begining of the game is what you get at the end basically. We find out he was involved with a number of older characters, perhaps from the first Fire Bringer War. In Suikoden I and II, hes just this guy who appears, then dissapears just as mysteriously. I don't think it's a good case to say "Yuber wasn't in Suikoden IV or V, not like Leknaat, Viki or Jeane, hence hes not important." I think we'll definately see him again, maybe not Pesmerga, his importance seems to have been played down due to Suikoden III. Yuber usually gets the henchmen treatment in the games, but soon you can tell something bigger will happen with him, that may be just speculation, but thats where I see Yuber's story going, or at least another appearance. |
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Aurelien
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| Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 9:29 am Post subject: |
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| Hayashi Ujitsuna wrote: |
| I don't think it's a good case to say "Yuber wasn't in Suikoden IV or V, not like Leknaat, Viki or Jeane, hence hes not important." |
The point isn't only about Yuber being not important because his absence. But also by the timing of his absence.
I'll do this based on chronological order:
1. Suikoden I, II, III released
All Yuber, Leknaat, Jeane, and Viki appeared
2. Murayama left Konami
3. Suikoden IV, Suikoden Tactics, and Suikoden V released
Only Leknaat, Jeane, and Viki appeared
Now is it merely a coincidence that Yuber's absence happened after Murayama's departure? Maybe, but maybe not.
The fact is, Murayama's departure did not affect Leknaat/Jeane/Viki's appearance, but it clearly affected Yuber's. So based on that, we can see that Konami definitely see the three ladies as important enough to be given appearance all the time with or without Murayama. While the same can't be said to Yuber who has yet to make an appearance after Murayama is gone.
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