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Yvl
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 Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, they are avoiding the present, and for good reason - we're not ready for it yet.
If we followed Albert and the others to the Western Continent, we would undoubtedly find out more and more about Harmonia and the World of Emptiness, considering the wench that Albert dissapeared with at the end of Suikoden 3. That's great and all, but then the series would have been finished by now. The underlying conflict, as has been stated, is the battle between Yuber and Pesmerga, who we know have connections with the world of emptiness, and if the mystery surrounding them is revealed, there would be no reason to delay their final showdown any longer.
If that did happen and the series did end, there would be no reviving it, even with prequels. There would be no major mysteries left to follow, except maybe Jeane, Viki, and Leknaat, but if we already know the final fate of the world, the appeal just isnt there anymore. The series would meet a premature death, and we'd never learn of the Island nations, Falena, Armes, Kooluk, or anything like that. We'd be left hanging after hearing about them if the story continued moving west in chronological order.
What they did instead was brilliant - they left us hanging just before plunging into the point of no return and switched to prequels to explore the world in depth. If they had stayed in chronological order, then we'd need a whole bunch of things happening in far too compact a time period. We were left hanging with several characters' whereabouts in Suikoden 3, and if they just kept the pace, those characters would all be dead by the time we were ready to see them again and conclude the series. And if they decided to keep the story going on longer after the next series of events following S3, people would complain about them dragging the series out when it should have ended already, or the series getting stagnant. I find it much more interesting when we have to guess not only where, but when the next game will take place, and I'm sure many others feel the same.
So why keep moving the story foward when you can instead explore the world's thousand years of history while learning things to help us comprehend the present? Suikoden has had a trend of "asking two questions for every one answered," and at this point they'd need alot more than a couple games to explain it all.
IMO, I wouldn't like to see them back in the present until Suikoden VII or VIII.
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Calvin
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| Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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| If we followed Albert and the others to the Western Continent, we would undoubtedly find out more and more about Harmonia and the World of Emptiness, considering the wench that Albert dissapeared with at the end of Suikoden 3. That's great and all, but then the series would have been finished by now. The underlying conflict, as has been stated, is the battle between Yuber and Pesmerga, who we know have connections with the world of emptiness, and if the mystery surrounding them is revealed, there would be no reason to delay their final showdown any longer. |
How would following Albert over to the Western Continent cause us to find out more about Harmonia and the World of Emptiness? While you are correct in saying that Murayama stated that when the Yuber-Pesmerga conflict ended, so too would Suikoden (which, by the way, may or may not be true at this point), you're taking some big leaps here. There is no evidence suggesting that Albert went to the Western Continent with anybody but himself. Further, we have no idea if Harmonia has any contact with the Western Continent. Third, we have no evidence of Yuber or Pesmerga being connected with Harmonia or Albert after Suikoden III.
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| What they did instead was brilliant - they left us hanging just before plunging into the point of no return and switched to prequels to explore the world in depth. If they had stayed in chronological order, then we'd need a whole bunch of things happening in far too compact a time period. |
How, exactly, did you come to this conclusion? I was not aware that Suikoden III signaled the end-times in the Suikoden World. Yuber is ageless and so could live for another 1000 years after the events of Suikoden III--we have no idea either way. I also don't view what they did as brilliant, for obvious reasons.
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| And if they decided to keep the story going on longer after the next series of events following S3, people would complain about them dragging the series out when it should have ended already, or the series getting stagnant. |
You're assuming that the series will reach its logical conclusion point in the time directly after Suikoden III, when in reality nobody has any idea if this is true. I just don't understand the common perception that the series must end in the game immediatly following the setting of Suikoden III. I haven't seen any indication that this is true.
Anyways, while it may or may not be true that they are stalling, I think you're reasoning is flawed--you make too many assumptions.
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Aurelien
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| Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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One thing to always remember is that it's not even official that the end is going to be the conclusion of Yuber vs Pesmerga saga anymore now that Murayama is no longer involved in Suikoden series. Judging from the absence of the two in the last two games, it's even plausible to say that the idea has been trashed away and that Konami might try to simply focus things elsewhere.
And to agree with Zonder, there is no evidence whatsoever that post-Suikoden III timeline would immediately translate into the end of the game. While the end is obviously in the future (and hence, post-Suikoden III), we don't know when in the future it would happen. So therefore, there can be 10-20-30-gazillion Suikoden games with post-Suikoden III timeline and we might still not reach the end of the series by then. Therefore, there is no real need to avoid moving to the future. Not that I have preference either way.
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Yvl
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| Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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Bear with me, I suffer from a rare disorder known as "Yvl can't make a point to save his damn life syndrome."
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There is no evidence suggesting that Albert went to the Western Continent with anybody but himself.
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I could have sworn there was a creepy-looking lady with black eyes and yellow pupils that appeared just before he teleported.
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How, exactly, did you come to this conclusion? I was not aware that Suikoden III signaled the end-times in the Suikoden World. Yuber is ageless and so could live for another 1000 years after the events of Suikoden III--we have no idea either way. I also don't view what they did as brilliant, for obvious reasons.
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Yuber may be, but that does not mean other key characters are. I guess I dont have as much to back it up with as I thought, but I believe that Albert will play a major role in the end of the series. The crazy lady is the only thing I have to back that up, I guess, and even then I'm just assuming that she's from the world of emptiness.
Really, I guess this is indeed all going on a few hunches. Suikoden had been getting progressively darker (From the suffering of a nation to the massacring of a nation to the destruction of a continent) and progressively exploring more about Yuber and/or Pesmerga (introducing their presence, allowing an investigation of Pesmerga, making Yuber one of the main characters). Any longer than two more games in that direction would drag on for too long and the series would lose its feeling.
I see Suikoden as being divided at this point between the "present" and the "past." We can explore the past adequetely while not disturbing the wonderful flow the present has. If the fourth Suikoden game set in the present were to suddenly break the "downward spiral into darkness" pattern the series had going, I believe the series would lose alot of its effect and make for a much weaker ending. And since there is too much to fit into the present while keeping the flow of the series steady, the obvious soloution is to explore the mysteries while set in the past.
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I just don't understand the common perception that the series must end in the game immediatly following the setting of Suikoden III. I haven't seen any indication that this is true.
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I didn't say that, I believe that something huge is going to happen in the next game set in the present, but it probably won't be the end of the series. It will probably
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One thing to always remember is that it's not even official that the end is going to be the conclusion of Yuber vs Pesmerga saga anymore now that Murayama is no longer involved in Suikoden series. Judging from the absence of the two in the last two games, it's even plausible to say that the idea has been trashed away and that Konami might try to simply focus things elsewhere.
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That would be just plain stupid. If the first three games were spent establishing characters and setting up the story for what he had envisioned to be the finale, why would they throw all of that away? They may as well start the whole series over from scratch.
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Aurelien
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| Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Yvl wrote: |
| That would be just plain stupid. If the first three games were spent establishing characters and setting up the story for what he had envisioned to be the finale, why would they throw all of that away? They may as well start the whole series over from scratch. |
I have a few points to reply about this part.
1. Where is it exactly in the first three games that there was an attempt to establish Pesmerga-Yuber saga as the end of the game? There was no interaction whatsoever between the two in any of the game. Heck, Pesmerga didn't even make any appearance in Suikoden III.
2. The whole "Pesmerga vs Yuber = the end of series" idea is never mentioned in the game itself. Therefore, even if such idea was considered, it was simply "an idea on the drawing board". There was no damage done whatsoever if the plan was changed. Think of about writing a book (e.g.: Harry Potter). JK Rowling might initially plan to kill both Harry and Voldemort at the end of the series, but after writing 3 books, maybe she changed her mind into a different ending. It's all possible to change since there is no direct contradiction through the product itself (the book didn't say that both Harry and Voldemort must die, therefore, the ending can be anything between Harry died, Voldermort died, both died, or both lived, etc). Same goes with Yuber and Pesmerga saga. There was nothing ever mentioned in the game other than Pesmerga is chasing Yuber. Other than that, there's nothing in the game.
3. Suggesting that they might as well start from scratch is illogical as there was no damage done for them to change the "ending". Therefore, no reason whatsoever to scrap the whole thing as each Suikoden game is still independent from one another with only minimal ties. Fortunately, the ties don't include Pesmerga-Yuber saga, and therefore, sacrificable if they needed to make a change of plan.
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Yvl
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| Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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1. Where is it exactly in the first three games that there was an attempt to establish Pesmerga-Yuber saga as the end of the game? There was no interaction whatsoever between the two in any of the game. Heck, Pesmerga didn't even make any appearance in Suikoden III.
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That seemed to be the way it was heading... moreso that than a Viki vs Jeane showdown or something like that, at least. Can YOU think of any other conflicts that have been brewing within the first few games that could potentially bring about the conclusion of a series of this calibur?
The Suikoden series just seems too well-planned out for them to suddenly change their idea of the finale. Something like this doesn't just happen, you have to have some idea where the series will end once you begin or things will start to conflict with each other eventually. For example, I'd imagine they already have developed all 27 true runes - It would be rather embarassing if the finale arrived and they just couldnt think of any more than 25 runes. Sure they may decide to change a rune or two that they were unsure of at first, but the general concept will likely still be there. Incidentally, while they said that the Yuber vs Pesmerga duel would end the series, the circumstances of the duel and the reason why they are fighting is left vague.
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Calvin
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| Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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Incidentally, while they said that the Yuber vs Pesmerga duel would end the series, the circumstances of the duel and the reason why they are fighting is left vague.
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A small correction: it is said that when the Yuber/Pesmerga plotline ends (not when they duel), the series will end. Yuber and Pesmerga have already dueled at least once, at the end of the first Suikoden.
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That seemed to be the way it was heading... moreso that than a Viki vs Jeane showdown or something like that, at least. Can YOU think of any other conflicts that have been brewing within the first few games that could potentially bring about the conclusion of a series of this calibur?
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If you take away the Murayama quote, than all that we'd deduce is that Pesmerga is chasing Yuber--nothing more. So, from the standpoint of canon information, the series does not, in fact, appear to be heading in that direction. I think that's the point Aurelian was trying to make.
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The Suikoden series just seems too well-planned out for them to suddenly change their idea of the finale. Something like this doesn't just happen, you have to have some idea where the series will end once you begin or things will start to conflict with each other eventually. For example, I'd imagine they already have developed all 27 true runes - It would be rather embarassing if the finale arrived and they just couldnt think of any more than 25 runes.
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While I agree with you that Konami probably has a good idea for the setting of the Suikoden world, I'd have to disagree that the whole thing is completely planned out. They probably already know already all of the 27 true runes, and probably already have created the countries on the Western Continent, for example. However, it is important to remember that something that isn't yet a finished product is still in a very fluid state, and as such it can be changed at any time. Certain things that provide the backbone of the series probably wouldn't change too much (such as the true runes), but other things, such as how the series might end, is something that could change several times over. It happens all the time. Stephen King took over 30 years to write his "Dark Tower" series of books, and has said publically that he didn't know how it would end until he wrote the ending. His idea of how the story would end probably changed several times during that period depending on his state of mind.
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Yvl
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| Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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If you take away the Murayama quote, than all that we'd deduce is that Pesmerga is chasing Yuber--nothing more. So, from the standpoint of canon information, the series does not, in fact, appear to be heading in that direction. I think that's the point Aurelian was trying to make.
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I gathered as much, and my point stands. The only other underlying plot that could potentially turn into the end of the series would be Harmonia gathering the True Runes, but that's far too predictable IMO... and again, there's a hunch I have about Pesmerga's relation to Harmonia...
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While I agree with you that Konami probably has a good idea for the setting of the Suikoden world, I'd have to disagree that the whole thing is completely planned out. They probably already know already all of the 27 true runes, and probably already have created the countries on the Western Continent, for example. However, it is important to remember that something that isn't yet a finished product is still in a very fluid state, and as such it can be changed at any time. Certain things that provide the backbone of the series probably wouldn't change too much (such as the true runes), but other things, such as how the series might end, is something that could change several times over.
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Right, exactly. It's just a question of whether the Yuber/Pesmerga conflict is part of that backbone.
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Stephen King took over 30 years to write his "Dark Tower" series of books, and has said publically that he didn't know how it would end until he wrote the ending. His idea of how the story would end probably changed several times during that period depending on his state of mind.
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But the situation is exactly the opposite here. I don't think that the guy in charge of writing the series would say that it would end a certain way unless he had every intention of ending it that way.
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Ryusei
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| Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 2:36 am Post subject: |
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I think Konami's reason for avoiding a post-Suikoden III timeline is because of the departure of Murayama. Ever since he left after finishing Suikoden III, we were given prequels to divert our attention from what was originally planned by Murayama when he created the series. As for now, I can picture Suikoden VI as another prequel as well.
Not that I don't like prequels though. In fact, I sort of like them. As long as the quality of the games are the same or equal to that of Suikoden V's, then I could care less about the timeline. Suikoden for me was more about learning about the world, and the timeline isn't really a matter for me. |
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CAPTAIN PLANET
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| Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 5:10 am Post subject: |
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| Ryusei wrote: |
I think Konami's reason for avoiding a post-Suikoden III timeline is because of the departure of Murayama. Ever since he left after finishing Suikoden III, we were given prequels to divert our attention from what was originally planned by Murayama when he created the series. As for now, I can picture Suikoden VI as another prequel as well.
Not that I don't like prequels though. In fact, I sort of like them. As long as the quality of the games are the same or equal to that of Suikoden V's, then I could care less about the timeline. Suikoden for me was more about learning about the world, and the timeline isn't really a matter for me. |
I agree with all this entirely. When and if Murayama comes back, then we'll most likely see a post-Suikoden III timeline. And prequels aren't all that bad.
Suikoden V has been the "most anticipated prequel", I'd like to say. Many Suikoden fans wanted to see Falena, and even more wanted to see how and why Georg Prime killed the queen. Suikoden IV was added just to fill in the map a bit, so we wouldn't ask "How'd we get from the central part of the Northern Continent to the southern continent?". And the fact that Suikoden IV was placed in such a time period so removed from the rest made it unique, I think.
But, Konami can't continue to only do prequels and odd timelines. Eventually they will have to go past Suikoden III. Everyone wants to see what the western continent's like, and why Albert Silverberg went there. Perhaps this militant nation he went to is Zelant?
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Ujitsuna
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| Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 5:41 am Post subject: |
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Personally, I see the lack of a post-Suikoden III installment as the fault of the release schedule for Suikoden III. Why everyone Suikoden is released in Europe with the exception of that one I have no idea at all. It's natural that Konami now wants to preserve their internation fanbase and keep titles coming at everyone - including Europe.
| Yvl wrote: |
| If we followed Albert and the others to the Western Continent, we would undoubtedly find out more and more about Harmonia and the World of Emptiness, considering the wench that Albert dissapeared with at the end of Suikoden 3. That's great and all, but then the series would have been finished by now. The underlying conflict, as has been stated, is the battle between Yuber and Pesmerga, who we know have connections with the world of emptiness, and if the mystery surrounding them is revealed, there would be no reason to delay their final showdown any longer. |
I think it's obvious in my opinion, that Albert will use Yuber again for some deed which Yuber thinks chaos will come from. I don't think Albert took anyone to the western continent, and I don't think Yuber holds any hard feelings against Albert, because Yuber isn't the "sharpest tool in the shed", I don't think he would've been able to put two and two together and realised that Albert never intended on causing all the chaos that would have resulted from destroying the True Wind Rune. I think (and now we're into the realm of leaps and speculation) that if we see Albert, we'll probably see Yuber again, going crazy and killing thousands as he always does.
| Ryusei wrote: |
| I think Konami's reason for avoiding a post-Suikoden III timeline is because of the departure of Murayama. Ever since he left after finishing Suikoden III, we were given prequels to divert our attention from what was originally planned by Murayama when he created the series. As for now, I can picture Suikoden VI as another prequel as well. |
I feel that you're right, but also I feel that the PAL release (or lack of) of Suikoden III also has a hand in this. Although we know one day they'll go to the future, and whether they'll use plot from Suikoden III is unknown. They could use it to join up the story, they might not use it so most PAL gamers who didn't import Suikoden III know what the hells going on. I suppose it's a very fine line they have to tread. I'd like to see a game on the western continent though, that'd be exciting, Katana could be there. ;)
| Ryusei wrote: |
| Not that I don't like prequels though. In fact, I sort of like them. As long as the quality of the games are the same or equal to that of Suikoden V's, then I could care less about the timeline. Suikoden for me was more about learning about the world, and the timeline isn't really a matter for me. |
I like them, but what I don't like is how Konami can potentially make massive plot holes in the story if they don't check everything over with a fine tooth comb. Of course, we as gamers understand that Suikoden V was made after Suikoden II, but Suikoden II was still set after it in the timeline. The world Suikoden is set in takes center stage to what time it's set in, Suikoden V is proof of that, albeit except for Killey's turtleneck sweater...
So in conclusion, I'm not bothered, I've played Suikoden III, but a lot of European Suikoden fans have not, it's up to Konami with what they do. |
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Aurelien
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| Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 6:35 am Post subject: |
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| Yvl wrote: |
| Right, exactly. It's just a question of whether the Yuber/Pesmerga conflict is part of that backbone. |
And like I've pointed out to you, there is no significant thing hinted whatsoever about Yuber/Pesmerga being "backbone" based on the games. The only thing that ever happened in the game is "Pesmerga said that he's chasing Yuber". There was no confrontation at all between the two in the game to indicate that their conflict is important. Based on the game, Pesmerga chasing Yuber is as (un)important as Rikimaru trying to get revenge. Both mentioned the basic idea, but then there was no continuation.
| Yvl wrote: |
| But the situation is exactly the opposite here. I don't think that the guy in charge of writing the series would say that it would end a certain way unless he had every intention of ending it that way. |
You are ignoring 1 very crucial information, Yvl. Murayama is no longer working for Konami. Murayama is no longer the writer of Suikoden series. Therefore, there is nothing that makes Suikoden to must end like what Murayama wanted it to be.
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| Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 8:17 am Post subject: |
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| Camus the Noble wrote: |
| There is a zero percent chance of the final Suikoden game not being after Suikoden III. My theory is that the final game will be when Hikusaak invades nearby countries, hoping to bring out the rest of the True Runes. And there's a big war, and so on and so forth. But it would make no sense for Suikoden III to be the last one in the timeline. It doesn't provide anything resembling a conclusion to the series. |
Since Suikoden III tell us that the end of the series will be conflict of Dharma and Chaos, maybe we have two possible scenario: Harmonia conquerors the world, imposing absolute order forever, or Harmonia fall, causing thousands of barbarian hordes to appear (Rome = Harmonia), which will lead to the destruction of the world.
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And like I've pointed out to you, there is no significant thing hinted whatsoever about Yuber/Pesmerga being "backbone" based on the games. |
Yes, it was never hinted in the games, but we should consider the words of the original suikoden creator (and the confirmation of its words when he left) as true, until the game says otherwise.
Also, note that the final battle, that Luc tried to stop, was a conflict between Order and Chaos, since we know that Yuber=Chaos, there are great chances that what Murayama said is true.
| Ryusei wrote: |
| Not that I don't like prequels though. In fact, I sort of like them. As long as the quality of the games are the same or equal to that of Suikoden V's, then I could care less about the timeline. Suikoden for me was more about learning about the world, and the timeline isn't really a matter for me. |
Yes, that's true, but that's also dangerous. What do you think will happen if they keep doing filler games without advancing the history?
It's possible that they overuse the Suikoden formula and you may believe: someday the suikoden formula will get old and it won't serve as game anymore.
If they are not ready to end the series by that day, we will have a very cheap and rushed ending, if they are to release it one day. |
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Ryusei
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| Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 8:38 am Post subject: |
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| Rezard wrote: |
Yes, that's true, but that's also dangerous. What do you think will happen if they keep doing filler games without advancing the history?
It's possible that they overuse the Suikoden formula and you may believe: someday the suikoden formula will get old and it won't serve as game anymore.
If they are not ready to end the series by that day, we will have a very cheap and rushed ending, if they are to release it one day. |
I am only saying that the timeline doesn't matter for me. I'm not saying that they should continue prequels from now on, but I am just merely stating that I am not bothered by the prequels.
Having said that, I am sure that Konami will continue Suikoden's story someday. I can picture the final chapters of Suikoden's story would be somewhere after Suikoden III's timeline. I have faith in Konami that they would deliver us a good and convincing ending for the Suikoden series, and I have faith in them for the next installments as well. It's really up to them wether they would avoid the post-Suikoden III timeline. I'm not really bothered. |
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Ujitsuna
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| Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 8:51 am Post subject: |
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| Rezard wrote: |
| Yes, it was never hinted in the games, but we should consider the words of the original suikoden creator (and the confirmation of its words when he left) as true, until the game says otherwise. |
The game will never say otherwise until the end, where it may or may not have anything to do with Pesmerga and Yuber, I can see the scene now.
Leknaat: "You now have the True Rune, oh by the way the ending will have nothing to do with Pesermga and Yuber, you know? Those two dudes in the black armour."
We should pay certain attention to that line, but not believe that it's canon, because we can't, it's likely that whoevers now head of the project has made serious storyline changes, but even that we can't know for sure or take as canon that the Pesmerga/Yuber ending won't happen. So basically don't have your hopes up for a Pesmerga/Yuber end, it might not happen.
| Rezard wrote: |
Also, note that the final battle, that Luc tried to stop, was a conflict between Order and Chaos, since we know that Yuber=Chaos, there are great chances that what Murayama said is true.
| Ryusei wrote: |
| Not that I don't like prequels though. In fact, I sort of like them. As long as the quality of the games are the same or equal to that of Suikoden V's, then I could care less about the timeline. Suikoden for me was more about learning about the world, and the timeline isn't really a matter for me. |
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Besides, the Suikoden world seems to be so big, they could host whole games on the other side of the world without having to reference to the previous games or characters. Thats sort of the beauty of the game. So this in turn makes the timeline issue a bit less important, but doesn't excuse that we'll one day see a post-Suikoden III game, which is possible.
| Rezard wrote: |
Yes, that's true, but that's also dangerous. What do you think will happen if they keep doing filler games without advancing the history?
It's possible that they overuse the Suikoden formula and you may believe: someday the suikoden formula will get old and it won't serve as game anymore.
If they are not ready to end the series by that day, we will have a very cheap and rushed ending, if they are to release it one day. |
Well, we as the gamers have no idea what we're building up to, do you? I don't think theres anything wrong with pre-Suikoden III games, it's just that I'd personally like to see what happened after it. Who said they have to end it in a dramatic way? Would a normal Suikoden template be that bad as an ending? |
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