The Curious Case of the Runes in the Great Generals

[John Layfield]

"Hi, I'm Teo McDohl..."
"...I'm Kasim Hazil..."
"and I'm Sonya Shulen..."
*together* "And we were never given Conquerer Runes!"

So why weren't these three of the Scarlet Moon Empire's Great Generals 'gifted' a black rune by Windy to bend them to her will?

Lack of opportunity? Teo McDohl and Kasim Hazil were at the Imperial Palace at the beginning of the game. Sonya Shulen and Milich Oppenheimer were being called for audiences. In fact, only Kwanda Rossman was not in Gregminster prior to the beginning of the game and a rune somehow made its way onto his metal-plated arm!

Milich goes for an audience, gets sent to his region and has a nice new Conquerer Rune to subvert his morals and bring up him under control. Kwanda somehow manages to get one also. Meanwhile, Teo, Kasim and Sonya... have a chat with the Emperor and go do their jobs.

So, what's the deal? Only three Conquerer Runes (Kwanda, Milich, Barbarossa)? A plot line quickly forgotten and discarded as the game continued? Windy felt three out of six was good enough? All of the above?

Theories please.
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One day, I shall come back. Yes, we shall all come back. Until then, there must be no regrets, no tears, no anxieties. Just go forward in all your beliefs and prove to me that I am not mistaken in mine.

[AA]

i think prehaps it was to do woth loyatly and power, combined with who was closer.
teo was vigerously loyal to barbarossa, as were all of the generals, but teo fought his own son for the empire, thats loyalty beyond all else. prehaps milch and kwanda asked for more power, prehaps thats what the meetings were all about.

of course windy could of just run out of runes, but im going on the side of discarded plot line i think, it just seems to odd that she wouldnt want control over all the generals, or maybe she didnt think she needed to have them all because she belived she had barbarossa under her spell aswell.

[Zaj I mean Mike]

Kasim and Teo were loyal beyond doubt Sonya would stay with Teo. But Kwanda would do the same thing he did with out the rune try and kill Windy to save Barbarbosa. Milich thinks of him self as the noble type and would'nt do what Windy wanted.
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[John Layfield]

While Kasim Hazil, Teo McDohl and Sonya Shulen wouldn't try and kill Windy or at least try and stop her influence on Barbarossa?

Milich needed the rune because he's "the noble type" but Kasim, Teo and Sonya operate without such sensibilities and aren't noble at all?

Milich Oppenheimer's 'nobility', which you seem to be using in place of 'loyalty', why is it greater than the other generals to the point that he needed a black rune, whereas Teo McDohl's loyalty, which was enough to make him try and murder his own son, wasn't?
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One day, I shall come back. Yes, we shall all come back. Until then, there must be no regrets, no tears, no anxieties. Just go forward in all your beliefs and prove to me that I am not mistaken in mine.

[Kikito]

First of all, Millich seemed like he wouldn't act as ruthlessly without the Black/Conqueror runes as he did. I don't think we know much about Kwanda, except for the fact that he felt that the Emperor had changed and that he wasn't the same man he had sworn allegiance to. That could be the reason that Windy persuaded them to take the Black/Conqueror Rune with the pretext of giving them more power. Teo already had the reason to fight the Liberation Army, wether it was to see how strong his son had become, because he wanted to clear the dishonor that his son had caused him when he turned traitor, or he was just Loyal to Barbarossa and the Empire without question(these are just me speculating possible reasons for him). As was said before, Sonya would just follow Teo's actions, and Kasim was just loyal and obedient to the Emperor no matter what.

This is my opinion on the subject, but I guess it's just one of those things that'll probably will never be cleared up.

[John Layfield]

They all have a reason to fight the Liberation Army, they rebelled against the crown.

Kwanda and Milich joined the Liberation Army in order to stop Windy's influence over the crown, not because of a lack of loyalty or too much loyalty. The Great General's comments about the changes in Barbarossa refer not to Barbarossa's own personality for the most part, but to the influence of Windy.

The Conquerer Runes enhance the cruelty of its subjects and removes their will, we already know this.

Windy gave the Conquerer Runes out to exert control over all aspects of the Imperial government, we also know this.

Teo McDohl would fight against rebels but in the end, he is not subservent to Windy. Kasmin Hazil is no more or less a loyal officer than Milich Oppenheimer, who spend the rest of his life guarding the Barbarossa memorial, or Kwanda Rossman, who was famed for saving Barbarossa's life throughout the Succession War.

And to essentially dilute Sonya Shulen to a one-note Teo-puppet seems like an easy way out to me.

The underlining question hasn't really been answered in any logical way. Why did Windy feel fit to bring Kwanda Rossman and Milich Oppenheimer DIRECTLY under her control when she already thought she had Barbarossa Rugner under similar control and then why is it she decided that three of the Great Generals could do without such an obvious advantage maker?
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One day, I shall come back. Yes, we shall all come back. Until then, there must be no regrets, no tears, no anxieties. Just go forward in all your beliefs and prove to me that I am not mistaken in mine.

[Leb]

It is likely that they weren't given the runes because they were not required to perform a dastardly deed. With a clear mind, it's likely Kwanda would not have burned down the Elf Village and tried to annihilate the Liberation Army without first giving terms of surrender, nor would someone as proud as Milich stoop so low as to forcibly take a man from his home.

The other three generals did exactly what any loyal officer would do-- defend their homeland, which Windy did not need to force.

[Admiral Ackbar]

I'm pretty sure Kwanda was given his rune to subjugate the denizens of the Great Forest. His power worked quite well against the kobolds.

Milich was obviously new to the region he ruled (the reaction everyone has to his town names says as much) so he probably needed a power to stop any dissenters.

I think Sonya and Teo weren't given the runes because they didn't have anyone to subjugate. Sonya's navy protected Toran Lake, where no one really needed to be controlled. Sonya isn't trying to get any pirates in line...she just needs to sink their ships and imprison them. Teo was leading an army to Rokkaku. He was there to kill the ninjas of that village and return, and I don't believe he had a region to rule over either.

As for Kasim...I don't know.

In actuality I'm sure it was for plot and drama reasons. Teo was Tir's father, Sonya was almost a mother to Tir, and Kasim was a dear friend to Mathiu. If they had been revealed to have been under the influence of a Black Rune it would have taken away any drama.

Teo's death wouldn't have been heartbreaking if he was under Windy's spell, but since he was acting in a sane mind and out of loyalty it was sad that he died. Sonya was fighting for her country as well, and her actions were also motivated by Teo's death, which makes her situation sad as well.

As for Kasim...I don't know.
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[Parallax]

Well, it could be chalked up to something as simple as Windy not being able to control more than a couple of Black Runes at a time, meaning that she wouldn't be able to subjugate all of the Empire's Great Generals at once. More likely, though, it was done for plot reasons by Konami. I tend to agree with Blue Thunder that a lot of the impact of the battle against Teo McDohl and Sonya Schulen would have been removed if they had simply been under Windy's control.

One possibility insofar as Teo was concerned is that the changes in his behaviour would have been immediately noticeable to the soldiers under his command, especially to Alen and Grenseal. Considering that Teo was actively deployed in a combat situation by Barbarossa at the start of the game, it may have seemed unwise to Windy to risk that someone further away from her direct sphere of influence notice the change in McDohl's behaviour and act accordingly. With Kwanda, she would have needed the Black Rune to force him to burn the Great Forest with his Burning Mirror (which I tend to think he wouldn't have normally done). Milich was needed to abduct Liukan from his home, and also to use the poison flowers against his own countrymen in battle.

I think my personal belief, however, is...

Milich and Kwanda were very quick to join up with the Toran Liberation Army when they were freed from the Rune's influence, saying that Barbarossa had changed, and that they feared Windy's influence. It's possible that Windy feared them coming to this realization on their own (leaving a question about Kasim...) ...and therefore chose to take control of them for that reason. Teo McDohl chose not to join his son even when the opportunity was offered, and Sonya took some serious convincing. Windy very well might have recognized the difference in temperement between the officers, and considered Milich and Kwanda more likely to take up arms against her once (if) her plan was revealed.

My theory regarding Kasim Hasil in this situation is that he would not have joined a resistance against the crown that he thought was certain to fail. Windy didn't believe that the Liberation Army would ever actually defeat Teo McDohl and the others, and saw a tendency in Kasim, a seasoned veteran, that he wouldn't be likely to join up with Tir (as Teo refused to do). Once Kasim saw that there was a real chance to defeat Windy and restore the Scarlet Moon Empire to its normal state, however, he saw joining to be a prudent course of action.
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He's a victim - not a perp - and I'm choosing to let him go.

[Pierrot Le Fou]

I made this thread about the same subject a while back.

http://www.suikox.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6359


Thats what SARS said on the matter, I guess its more simple than we all thought.
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[Thief]

Ah, the wonders of official publications and announcement.

Nonetheless, that sure says something about the personality of these Great Generals. Think Georg would've accepted the rune if he was offered one?

[Axiose]

I doubt he would have from what we've seen in Suikoden II but then, that's only a portion of his personality. I would think we'll know more about him soon but I think he would've been more like Teo/Kasim and chosen to use his own powers.
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[Axiose] [Fliktor]

[Zaj]

One question that came up to my mind was, what's the process of making a black/conqueror rune? Maybe Windy only got to make three and gave them only to those who she thought was necessary? And at what point did Windy even hand out these runes?

[Axiose]

I think it's difficult to say that. At Windy's stage alot of thing going on are behind the scenes. Everyone "knows" that Barbarossa is different and Windy has something to do with it, but she really doesn't have much official power. She can't force a general to do something against his will without revealing herself as a mind controlling psychopath which would then force the remaining Generals to act. Windy simply offers them as gifts to those who want them.
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[Axiose] [Fliktor]

[Admiral Ackbar]

Yeah, even though Windy had Barbarosa's heart, she didn'tt have the hearts of the Great Generals. She wielded power but it wasn't on a solid foundation so any screw up could have costed her.
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