Questions / Opinions / Speculations About Kooluk (MAJOR SPOILERS!)

[Sai Fujiwara]

I recently finished Suikoden Tactics, but I was perplexed by some of the things in the ending, and I thought some of the proceeding events seemed odd, or weren't really explained at all. It kinda' gave me more questions than answers, especially about the result regarding what may or may not have happened with the Kooluk and the Kooluk Empire. Now, as we all know, Iskas, Emperor Julius, and Prince Martin are all killed after turning into "fishmen." Because of this, Corselia was made "Empress," though apparently didn't feel like leading the Empire, and thus chose to disband it.

WEAK!

That's really irresponsible, and I think it doesn't really even fit in with her character. She keeps getting "stronger" according to Julius and her father, Martin. Even Kyril, Andarc, and Seneca are all proud of her newfound strength, and that's she's become more than just the little girl princess that she used to be. Now at the end, it did say that she was glad that the people "seemed happy" with her decision, but instead of having the strength to lead her people to an age of peace, she insteads adbicates and runs away from her responsibilities, apparently feeling like this is the best course of action.

To me, this is one of the most dissapointing facets of the ending, and as a result, gives us a rather inconclusive ending, which also rasies a whole lot of questions as to what exactly has become of the Kooluk Empire, or at least the reigion that the Kooluk resided in.

According to Andarc's journal, it said that the Scarlet Moon Empire absorbed some of the Kooluk's villages, and that others were abandoned...

I had to re-read that as the words appeared on the screen... Abandoned?! I dunno what the rest of you thought, but I found this to be almost too vague. Folks, people don't just up and leave, and abandon their homes, and cities for no reason at all... That makes absolutely no sense. So, while Scarlet Moon undoubetdly annexed the Small Border Village, what happened with Haruna? (Possibly annexed), Graska, Merseto, or El-Eal? Perhaps they were abandoned like Andarc wrote, but... Why...?

One thing is a possible famine that overtook the land, forcing the people to find a more bountiful area to move to, or it may have been that barbaric mauraders pillaged and sacked the towns, which were poorly defended after the Kooluk collapse.... Or it may have been that the Scarlet Moon seiezed the opportunity to wipe out any and all resistance in the area, and perhaps these towns were the unfortunate victims of a much greater (and possibly later revealed) scheme.

However, I do tend to think it rather improbable that Scarlet Moon would embark on such a "crusade" as it were. It's more likely that they simply siezed up SOME (not all) of the Kooluk lands. After all, as far as we know, the southernmost points of the Scarlet Moon Empire / Toran Republic at the time of Suikoden I / II are Pannu Yakuta, and Neclord's Castle. Heck, it may be that the border village is the future site of Pannu Yakuta. However, the fact that this area is just completely omitted, and from a game that had you touring the whole nation to liberate it, is just too coincidental to make me think that somehow, somewhere along the line, the Scarlet Moon Empire lost control of this reigion, or never really had control over it. (With, of course, the exception of the Border Village, which COULD have been Pannu Yakuta's future location...)

So what happened?

I have a theory that I like, and the theory that I don't like as much, and another theory which, well... Just isn't fun at all.

The not-fun theory would be that the Kooluk were just wiped out by marauders... I would say, whether or not this happened, the area would've been reinhabited... Perhaps by residents of the Island Nations, giving them control of the area south of Pannu Yakuta. After all, El-Eal, and Merseto would be ideal port town locations, with which to trade with the various Island Nations.

The theory that I don't like as well would say that these towns became independant city-states on their own, and eventually formed "The Southland Republic," or "Southland Confederation" or whatever... It seems to me that this could, in fact, be that same "southland" area that was mentioned, that Wakaba and crew could've come from... After all, it seems that Toran doesn't have control, so why couldn't something like this have happened? I figure if this is the result, that this nation is fairily militarily weak (or at least not at all ambitious), and merely just trades with the Scarlet Moon Empire (Toran Republic), Island Nations, Kanakus, Gaien, and Falena.

And finally, the theory that I like the most is that The Scarlet Moon Empire took over the region, and began considering expansion into the Island Nations. While they controlled this area, one of Corselia's decendants (Perhaps a son, grandson, or even great-grandson) found out about his imperial heritage, and decided to rise up and reunite the Kooluk Empire (possibly oppressed by Scarlet Moon.) Re-forging this lost nation and making it into a regional power again, providing a "buffer state" between Scarlet Moon and the Island Nations. Heck, it's even a possible story for a Suikoden, or possibly a Suikoden Tactics II, or maybe even a new Suikogaiden, to fill in some of those unanswered questions.

Anyhow, those are just a few thoughts of mine on this subject. Maybe I missed something along the way, and if so, don't hesitate to fill in. I'd like to hear some feedback and discussion on this.
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Happily Married to the Lovely Lady Chris Lightfellow! :D

[Forum Poster]

This is why I hope Suikoden V mentions what has become of the former Kooluk Empire in the 150 years since, in an Old Book, by having a character or two be from the region, or in some dialog.

Tactics told us that Kooluk was in a bad way, with famine spreading across the land, a no doubt impending civil war between the Imperials and the Patriarchs, and the destruction of a significant portion of their military force (i.e. the Kooluk navy). Even if Corselia (or even Martin or Julius, had Iskas not fishified them) had tried to retain the throne, things probably would have spun out of control in short order.

I think the smaller villages probably were abandoned, but I seriously doubt a major place like Graska would be. It seems more likely that the part of Kooluk that was not annexed by Scarlet Moon probably balkanized into separate regions. I suppose it might look something like Grassland, where there may be an actual nation like Tinto or Zexen, but the rest is full of different enclaves of people who are not necessarily part of any country. Perhaps Imperial loyalists retained Graska and the Patriarchals formed their own small country?

I also think, like you, Sai Fujiwara, that the Island Nations may have got in on the action; by the time of Suikoden V, they may have the southern part of what was once Kooluk, specifically, the regions surrounding El Eal.

It does seems "weak" that Corselia just let the empire go, but she may have had little choice; taking the throne might have prolonged the process. She was probably in a no-win situation.

[Sai Fujiwara]

Perhaps a bad situation, but Corselia's decision just seemed disappointing, as she seemed to really have this "inner strength" that Seneca and Kyril were talking about, as well as Martin and Julius... Well, their souls at least.

That's another possible theory as well. After all, El Eal is also a decent defensive position, and really a very ideal position for a naval base, if the Island Nations, or even Falena, or something decided to gobble up the position. Heck, if it was abandoned long enough, perhaps even Harmonia or MAAAAYBE even Zexen or Gaien could've taken it... Zexen seemed to be a nation with a lot of maritime trade, so taking this unoccupied region for themselves might well have been a profitable for them. It's something to think about, at least.
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Happily Married to the Lovely Lady Chris Lightfellow! :D

[Username]

Yeah, I would love to see more info about the area of the formor Kooluk Empire. They didn't seem to happy with the choice giving that corselia was scared to show her face their. She hid in the game to keep the heat down and not have a bunch of people beg to her. (When she couldn't do anything about it.) But after the events you would think she would just be treated with respect by the people, and not trampled now that she wasn't royatly anymore. Some people most have really hated her (Not blameing them. They just lost any sense of pride and safty from a nation.)

The Island Nations would not have invaded anything. They may have offered the people to join, but Lino as basicly the head of the nations would have forbid any military action. "I don't kick 'em when their down." would have been the jest of his argument. I'm sure the People of Kooluk left to the SME and Illua Island or some other island. It could very well be the southlands which wouldn't suprise me.
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[Equus]

I have to agree that the ending leaves something to be desired. I mean, with so much of the plot deriving from Iskas and the attempt to overthrow imperial power, it's anti-climactic that Corselia just decides to let it all just go. It's almost as if Hamlet decided that his dad was a knob anyway, so he didn't really care about revenge. Plausible, possible, and maybe even rational, but it's not a very dramatic choice.

And it does seem a little strange that towns were just abandoned. I mean, that did happen historically, but with the possibility of trade between the Scarlet Moon Empire and the Island Nations, I don't see how that area would just be left alone.
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[Elzamine]

I found the concept of kooluk to be a bit underdeveloped the whole way through really. I have a few thoughts either way though.

As far as what I could see, there was a pretty good internal struggle going on between the imperials and the patriarchs. That said, while the nation had it's inner problems, it left things open for other groups to take control. That could have been the main thing that opened the plot up for what happened in Iv with Cray, Colton and Troy. While Cray had his own motives obviously, I can't but feel Troy, Colton and his son Helmut actually interested in the well being of the nation. The loss of those 3 commanders also took a lot out of Kooluk too though; the nation from what I could see was more of a naval nation anyhow.
The country was incredibly weak even at the start of the game as far as I was concerned. Iskas, while he was a total jack-butt, had perfect timing and motivation to take over. The rune cannons where the only real thing that the Kooluk had going for them, regardless of whom had them.

While Coreslia's choice may have been a weak choice, I'm inclined to think the main reasoning for her choice could have very well been what was told to her by her grandfather in his last moments. Even he said something about if it was time for the nation to fall, so be it. While we didn't really get to know much about either faction of the Kooluk nation, there was an obvious issue between the two. The country needed to recover after the issues from Suikoden IV, and the major split between the factions would only leave the nation weak and unable to regain it's power. I'm inclined to feel that Julius knew this. I don't think it would have mattered what Corselia chose to do, I think the nation would have fallen either way. While she may be the empress, I just can't see her having enough support. Even if she were to get all the imperial support, there'd still be the patriarch's who'd be upset because of the loss of Iskas. Each side too significant losses, and there's only going to be more conflict to come from it.

While it seems plausible that Scarlet Moon would pick up some of the upper nation, I can't see how some of it would just be abandoned. Of course, a lot of the locations were plains and such, moreso than anything else. A capital city just up and gone seems strange to me.

The thing that makes me wonder the most however, is the ending sequence with Ornela, Busk and Roget. Busk starts to blame everything on Iskas, and is then interrupted by Ornela, who says no one person is to blame. Roget makes a comment about being surprised that an imperial said that. Since Corselia stepped down, it makes me wonder what happened to Ornela and Busk. They'd be the next in line for leadership. Either of them could easily take over at least some of the cities. As well, Roget is all we know of the patriarchal faction. If the three of them could somehow work together, they may be able to abolish the faction split between the nation. Of course this would depend on how much of each faction there actually was and how much conflict it would produce. If too much conflict resulted, perhaps the remainder of kooluk could be split between the two factions. It just seems odd to me that the rest of the imperial family would just disappear, especially since Ornela and Busk seemed to be of decent importance.
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[Sai Fujiwara]

Well, I certainly think that Corselia could've lead the nation through the hard time, given the proper support. After all, people like Ornella and Busk would've supported her. And it's likely that Roget, and possibly even Kyril would have as well. She didn't seem unpopular, and it wasn't as if she wouldn't have had the support of the better half of the nation's army on her side. The only thing that really could've toppled them would've been a full-scale attack from the Scarlet Moon Empire. However, this didn't happen... At least as far as we know.

I dunno... I was just kinda' suprised and really dissappointed that we didn't learn as much about Kooluk as we could've. Heck, I don't even think there were any "old books" to read on them in Suikoden IV, if memory serves me right. Would be interesting to know where they came from, and if indeed, they did reform sometime between Suikoden Tactics and Suikoden I.

I just find it too conincidental that this region would've been left out of Suikoden I, if it had been annexed by Scarlet Moon. But, I'm thinking that it wasn't, and that someone held power over this region... Just who it was, is still somewhat of a mystery. Perhaps we're supposed to speculate on it, after all. :wink:
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Happily Married to the Lovely Lady Chris Lightfellow! :D

[Elzamine]

[Holy Paladin]