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Aurelien
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 Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:40 am Post subject: |
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Well the main objection that I personally have if Viktor and Flik were to appear again with major role is not whether it is well executed or not. But the fact that it would grab the attention of the players more than the to the main storyline/characters.
Think about it this way, from the Suikoden I and II, Viktor and Flik had been in so many "parts" of the storyline:
1. Introducing Tir to Odessa to join the Liberation Army in Suikoden I
2. Getting Star Dragon Sword in Suikoden I
3. Getting Star Dragon Sword in Suikoden II
4. Fighting Neclord in Suikoden I
5. Fighting Neclord in Suikoden II (twice: North Window AND Tinto)
6. Freeing Viktor in Suikoden I
7. Having Flik in Greenhill in Suikoden II
8. Having Flik and Viktor for the final dungeon in Suikoden I
9. Introducing Riou to Annabelle and Granmeyer
10. The whole Viktor's Mercenary Fortress bit
11. Freeing Riou/Jowy/Nanami from Kyaro
and probably even more that I forgot about.
The point to me is that they have been getting so much exposure already from the first 2 Suikoden games. There is no other non-main character (and the characters that belong to the main-character's "group) that get that much exposure. Question is, do we really need even more exposure for Flik and Viktor? Wouldn't that exposure be better if used to give depth to other characters instead (Viki, Jeane, Yuber, Pesmerga, Nash, Sasarai, etc)?
If they were to appear again and have major role with well execution of the appearance, then it's good, except that it means that such good execution could've been used for other characters instead. Why waste them on Flik and Viktor all the time? Suikoden has 108 Star of Destiny, why focus on the same two over and over again? Don't the others deserve to get exposure as well?
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Kain
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| Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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i would agree to black pesmerga.. these guy really grab our attention.. even some of suikoden player i met think flik and viktor the real hero . and i din't suprise to see they apearance again.. neither i good or bad way.. young or old... or what ever. the truth is they are the legend of suikoden..
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Yvl
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| Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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I wouldn't call them the heros of the game. The game is so immense that there can't really be a main character, just like how there can't be a main character to the real world.
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AA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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Unfortunately Viktor and Flik do need to have closure on their stories, if only to stop the fandom wondering about how it ends, in some respects i think they deserve it for being such a main stay of the series, over two games they have had a very large impact, more so than even Georg Prime.
I would like to see an end brought to them, either through death or old age, either way they need to end their plot line. |
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Aurelien
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| Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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I beg to disagree, Yvl. The fact that there are just so many fans complaining that Viktor and Flik did not appear in Suikoden III, the fact that Konami shoved them down our throats so many times, and the fact that most fans do want closure on them showed that they are "main characters" as if we're playing "Flik and Viktor's Adventure" instead of Suikoden that has wide array of characters in the game. It's a fact that other characters never got similar exposure.
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Rainrir
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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Actually, I don't see how Konami actually shoved Viktor and Flik down the player's throat.
Fliktor's involvment in the S1 storyline is actually less then their involvemnet in the S2 storyline. Flik only joins you 3/4 into the game...Remember he basically disappears till then when Odessa was killed. Viktor was only important in events that require you to fight Neclord, one small part of the early game and the final battle.
They do play a HUGE role in S2 though...
If you are telling me that the characters in S3 and S4 are overshadowed or play a smaller role then Fliktor in S1 & S2, that is because some of the EXERCUTION of the characters in those games are flawed AND those characters are not THAT lucky to happen to have a sequel that allows them to reasonably participate in them.
In S3, Geddoe's party (along with Geddoe, but not counting him) played a LARGE part in the storyline. I would say they did more then Fliktor in S1. The same can be said for Salome and Nash (who had two full games on his adventures) and even Futch (who appeared in S1, S2, SG1, SG2 and SG3) But because the story of S3 is actually quite short, with the playtime divided into three "groups", they seem to do less then Fliktor..who appeared in two full games.
They also suffer from the fact that they do not have a numerical sequel that occurs in a reasonable time for them to make another appearance in. Remember? S4 is 150 years ago. The next-next numerical sequel happened too far away geographically and too early for them to participate.
In S4's case, the whole game is not very well exercuted. I can be forgiven to feel that there are nobody "Fliktors"-level influence because they characters are not give much to do. Even Lino, who is cool, did play much of a role in the game. The characters in S4 also do not get the chance to be in its numerical sequel...as it happens 130+ years later.
<Removed the S5 stuff>
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Aurelien
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Actually, I don't see how Konami actually shoved Viktor and Flik down the player's throat. |
Name 1 character that has more airtime than Viktor and Flik. Excluding the following:
1. The heroes (Tir, Riou, Hugo, Chris, etc)
Since we control the heroes, obviously they got more airtime than Viktor and Flik.
2. The characters that belong to the heroes' group (Pahn, Cleo, Gremio, Nanami, Sgt.Joe, Zexen Knights, Geddoe's Mercenary, etc)
Since they are the characters that are with the heroes, obviously they would be involved in the storyline a lot with the heroes (whom we control). Therefore, they too would get a lot of exposure.
So yeah, excluding those 2 groups of characters, name 1 character that has more airtime than Viktor and Flik. None. That's why Viktor and Flik were shoved down our throats.
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| Flik only joins you 3/4 into the game...Remember he basically disappears till then when Odessa was killed. Viktor was only important in events that require you to fight Neclord, one small part of the early game and the final battle. |
And unfortunately, "fighting Neclord" includes having him to Warrior's Village, getting Star Dragon Sword, and entering Neclord's Castle itself. So it's not like it's only 1 thing. That 1 thing also has the sidequest of getting Star Dragon Sword.
And what you considered as "small part of the early game" includes:
1. Recruiting Viktor
2. Going with Viktor to rescue Varkas and Sydonia
3. Going with Viktor and Odessa to give Fire Spears blueprint
4. Going with Viktor in escaping the Liberation Army HQ invasion
5. Going with Viktor in recruiting Mathiu
6. Going with Viktor and Tai Ho/Yam Koo in getting Toran Castle as new HQ
7. Going with Viktor to recruit Lepant
So what you considered as "small part of the early game" is actually having Viktor in your party non-stop from the moment we recruit him until Kirkis showed up to ask for help. And you know what? The moment the party actually going to enter Pannu Yakuta to fight Kwanda, Viktor entered the party AGAIN. Even in a story that didn't really involve him, he was still forced into the party.
And what's next? That's right, recruiting Flik. How to recruit Flik? You're right again, have Viktor in the party. So what you considered as "Flik only joins you 3/4 into the game" means that 90% of that 3/4 that Flik wasn't in the game, Viktor was in the party the whole time.
Once you got Flik, what was his first contribution? Yep, forcing us to attack Milich Oppenheimer only to get beaten. Then we got our first Flikor-free moment until Gremio died. And to get revenge, of course what "better" way to celebrate it by Flik and Viktor forcing their way into our party again once we wanted to enter Scarleticia.
We are then rewarded once again with Fliktor-free moment for being a good kid. We got the Fliktor-free moment for getting Fire Spears and ending Teo's life. Wheeeeeee. Oh wait, I celebrated too early. Next part is the Neclord part and we all know that Viktor was in there again. >.<;
Once you're done with the whole Neclord fiasco, Viktor would leave the army and you got to the Dragon Knights' bit. I was hoping that Humphrey would only be the one needed, but I'm wrong. Flik was also forced too for whatever reason. After you got the Dragon Knights as your ally, the next episode is .... save Viktor from the prison! Thankfully, Flik wasn't forced into the party this time around. However, don't be too happy too quickly. Once Viktor is back, the next part is battle against Sonya's army. And we all know that Viktor is back so he forced his way back into the party once again. What's next? Final dungeon of Gregminster Palace with both Flik and Viktor being forced into the party.
Let's recap a bit. The moments when we are fully Fliktor-free are:
1. Prior to recruiting Viktor
2. Kirkis asking for help, only up to about to enter Pannu Yakuta
3. Losing to Milich's flower, up to Gremio's death
4. Fire Spears up to Teo's death
5. Saving Viktor from the prison
6. There is no #6. That's it. Only 5 parts where we are Fliktor-free in Suikoden I.
There, I've pretty much summed up Suikoden I. If you read the whole thing, could you please explain to me how they are not shoved down our throats?
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| Fliktor's involvment in the S1 storyline is actually less then their involvemnet in the S2 storyline. |
Oh great, so we got them even MORE in Suikoden II? Shoved down our throats x2?
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| In S3, Geddoe's party (along with Geddoe, but not counting him) played a LARGE part in the storyline. I would say they did more then Fliktor in S1. |
That's because Geddoe's unit is important to Geddoe, and Geddoe is one of the heroes. Therefore, it's actually logical to see a lot of Joker, Ace, Jacques, Queen, and Aila. However, the same cannot be said to Flik and Viktor, especially in Suikoden II where the war didn't even involve their hometown. They were "just mercenaries", you know. Yet, they had such a big role even more than those who were actually fighting for their nation.
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| Nash (who had two full games on his adventures) |
Nash was the hero in SuikoGaiden. So it was normal that he got exposure.
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| and even Futch (who appeared in S1, S2, SG1, SG2 and SG3) |
"Appearing" in those games doesn't mean Futch got exposure though. His role had always been minimal and unimportant at all.
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| They also suffer from the fact that they do not have a numerical sequel that occurs in a reasonable time for them to make another appearance in. |
That's why I said that it would be bad if Fliktor got even more exposure rather than being used for these characters that didn't get "sequel that occurs in a reasonable time for them to make another appearance in". Give the airtime for those that need the airtime. Don't give to those that already have enough.
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| The characters in S4 also do not get the chance to be in its numerical sequel...as it happens 130+ years later. |
Not true. Suikoden Tactics is a continuation or some sort to Suikoden IV. Yet, none of them got any extra exposure again.
I'm not reading the Suikoden V bits since it's not allowed to post that outside Suikoden V forum. Plus, I haven't played the game and want to avoid spoilers.
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Rainrir
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| Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 6:34 am Post subject: |
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Name 1 character that has more airtime than Viktor and Flik. Excluding the following:
1. The heroes (Tir, Riou, Hugo, Chris, etc)
Since we control the heroes, obviously they got more airtime than Viktor and Flik.
2. The characters that belong to the heroes' group (Pahn, Cleo, Gremio, Nanami, Sgt.Joe, Zexen Knights, Geddoe's Mercenary, etc)
Since they are the characters that are with the heroes, obviously they would be involved in the storyline a lot with the heroes (whom we control). Therefore, they too would get a lot of exposure.
So yeah, excluding those 2 groups of characters, name 1 character that has more airtime than Viktor and Flik. None. That's why Viktor and Flik were shoved down our throats. |
NOT FAIR! You basically removed every significant character in the games! :p
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And unfortunately, "fighting Neclord" includes having him to Warrior's Village, getting Star Dragon Sword, and entering Neclord's Castle itself. So it's not like it's only 1 thing. That 1 thing also has the sidequest of getting Star Dragon Sword.
And what you considered as "small part of the early game" includes:
1. Recruiting Viktor
2. Going with Viktor to rescue Varkas and Sydonia
3. Going with Viktor and Odessa to give Fire Spears blueprint
4. Going with Viktor in escaping the Liberation Army HQ invasion
5. Going with Viktor in recruiting Mathiu
6. Going with Viktor and Tai Ho/Yam Koo in getting Toran Castle as new HQ
7. Going with Viktor to recruit Lepant
So what you considered as "small part of the early game" is actually having Viktor in your party non-stop from the moment we recruit him until Kirkis showed up to ask for help. And you know what? The moment the party actually going to enter Pannu Yakuta to fight Kwanda, Viktor entered the party AGAIN. Even in a story that didn't really involve him, he was still forced into the party.
And what's next? That's right, recruiting Flik. How to recruit Flik? You're right again, have Viktor in the party. So what you considered as "Flik only joins you 3/4 into the game" means that 90% of that 3/4 that Flik wasn't in the game, Viktor was in the party the whole time.
Once you got Flik, what was his first contribution? Yep, forcing us to attack Milich Oppenheimer only to get beaten. Then we got our first Flikor-free moment until Gremio died. And to get revenge, of course what "better" way to celebrate it by Flik and Viktor forcing their way into our party again once we wanted to enter Scarleticia.
We are then rewarded once again with Fliktor-free moment for being a good kid. We got the Fliktor-free moment for getting Fire Spears and ending Teo's life. Wheeeeeee. Oh wait, I celebrated too early. Next part is the Neclord part and we all know that Viktor was in there again. >.<;
Once you're done with the whole Neclord fiasco, Viktor would leave the army and you got to the Dragon Knights' bit. I was hoping that Humphrey would only be the one needed, but I'm wrong. Flik was also forced too for whatever reason. After you got the Dragon Knights as your ally, the next episode is .... save Viktor from the prison! Thankfully, Flik wasn't forced into the party this time around. However, don't be too happy too quickly. Once Viktor is back, the next part is battle against Sonya's army. And we all know that Viktor is back so he forced his way back into the party once again. What's next? Final dungeon of Gregminster Palace with both Flik and Viktor being forced into the party.
Let's recap a bit. The moments when we are fully Fliktor-free are:
1. Prior to recruiting Viktor
2. Kirkis asking for help, only up to about to enter Pannu Yakuta
3. Losing to Milich's flower, up to Gremio's death
4. Fire Spears up to Teo's death
5. Saving Viktor from the prison
6. There is no #6. That's it. Only 5 parts where we are Fliktor-free in Suikoden I.
There, I've pretty much summed up Suikoden I. If you read the whole thing, could you please explain to me how they are not shoved down our throats? |
Seriously, have you ever considered that Viktor and Flik was meant to be contrasting characters (IMO) in S1?
In S1, Viktor is pretty much the only person who has faith in Tir RIGHT OFF the bat. His sticking around with Tir shows that and it was thematically necessary for him to be seen constantly supporting Tir. Viktor was the only one who believed in Tir, who isn't part of his family, and also stuck with him before he even got a castle and army.
On the flip side, Flik is the skeptic who never believed in Tir from the start. He continues to do so even after Tir achieved great success with his army and even declared the de-facto leader of the rebellion. After he joins grudgingly, it was necessary to write him into the story such that he can be seen gradually opening up to the idea of fellowship and cooperation. That is basically S1's theme.
Remember, they didn't start off as the bestest of buddies. They are, in fact, sharpy divided over the controversal new addition to the rebels...Tir Mcdohl.
This is crystalized in the final scene. Two very different people, who met Tir around the same time but have different ideas about him, decided that they are willing to die for their friend and leader. That was the scene that shows us the theme of the whole game, that fellowship can bridge differences and allow people to cooperate for a better future.
Here, I repeat their airtime in S1 was necessary because how they develop with the "silent hero" is necessary to the thematic intergity of the story. That isn't shoving them down people's throat...that only happens when they are added in unneccessarily...and I don't feel that's the case
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| Oh great, so we got them even MORE in Suikoden II? Shoved down our throats x2? |
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| That's because Geddoe's unit is important to Geddoe, and Geddoe is one of the heroes. Therefore, it's actually logical to see a lot of Joker, Ace, Jacques, Queen, and Aila. However, the same cannot be said to Flik and Viktor, especially in Suikoden II where the war didn't even involve their hometown. They were "just mercenaries", you know. Yet, they had such a big role even more than those who were actually fighting for their nation. |
They are basically the RHM and LHM of Riou in Suikoden 2. Riou didn't have a Geddoe's "Merry Men" party,. Chris' "Fanclub" or Tir's "McDohl Family Circus" to fill the same role. He only has Nanami, who cannot offer mature emotional support or the level of experience needed to handle a war. The devs probably decided that the best people to guide Riou would be no other then who the players are already familiar with...
Flik wasn't from Dunan...but Viktor is from North Window. At that stage, they are basically a unbreakable team. Where one goes, the other will follow. Heck, if anyone of them is a girl..they would be married already. (NO! this is NOT an endorsement for Fliktor yaoi!!!)
Even if North Window was destroyed, we all know how sentimental a person Viktor is...He also had a cause to fight...somewhat for Annabelle. Later on, when North Window is resurrected as the base of the Dunan Army, it is not hard to imagine how great Viktor felt for his hometown.
The "just mercernaries" bit is really what Viktor uses to laugh off the real reasons he fights. Flik tags along because they are the bestest of buds.
You should have noticed hat Viktor was the one that was more ready to fight in S2, Flik's role was more passive.
They are given the screen time because Flik and Viktor ARE the "Geddoe's Mercs" or "McDohl Family" of Riou. That shouldn't be taken as they are "forced" down the player's throat. If Geddoe's man and Chris knights logically can have the screen time....I don't think why Fliktor can't.
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Aurelien
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| Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 8:08 am Post subject: |
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| NOT FAIR! You basically removed every significant character in the games! :p |
I'm sorry, it's not unfair. It's the fact. These characters that I listed were the characters that were integral to the plot and main characters. Therefore, those characters deserved the exposure that they got. The same cannot be said to Viktor and Flik for the lack of connection.
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| Here, I repeat their airtime in S1 was necessary because how they develop with the "silent hero" is necessary to the thematic intergity of the story. That isn't shoving them down people's throat...that only happens when they are added in unneccessarily...and I don't feel that's the case |
I disagree. Tir had had enough support from his own "group" (Pahn, Gremio, Cleo) that adding Viktor and Flik would pretty much leave no room for others to show what they got. I can understand that Viktor was needed at the beginning. But to the extent of having him in the party non-stop until Kirkis showed up? That's a lot and not "small part of the early game" like you said.
Then there are "unnecessary" parts where they took the spotlight from the characters (Hence, shoved down our throats). Example:
1. Forcing Viktor into the party during the Pannu Yakuta. Why not give the chance for the kobolds, elves, and even Valeria to take the centerstage in that part instead? Why add Viktor there? He wasn't really involved in the storyline there.
2. Forcing Flik into the party during the Dragon Knights bit. He wasn't even involved at all other than for asking why the dragons were asleep. This part could've been used for even more exposure for Humphrey or Joshua or even Futch.
3. Forcing both Flik and Viktor at Scarleticia. What's the point? It could've been used for a special moment for the McDohl household instead. But once again, we were forced to have Flik and Viktor whom both weren't even close to Gremio to begin with.
To me, they were forced into the party for no reason. Part of the greatness of Suikoden's 6-man party system is that we have a lot of freedom to decide who we want to have in the party. Constantly having either or both of Viktor and Flik into our party significantly limit us the freedom of choice, and that affected the enjoyment of the game.
On the other hand, there's a weird part where Flik wasn't forced into the party when we were about to save Viktor from the prison. Or even the twice (both in Suikoden I and II) where Flik seemed to be not interested at all with the whole Neclord fiasco. If Viktor was Flik's best friend, why wasn't he interested in trying to help Viktor with his revenge? It didn't really make sense.
Having big role is understandable. But it has to be done with proper reasoning and common sense. They had so big of a role that it's arguably even bigger than Tir McDohl the hero himself and that is ridiculous IMO since Viktor or Flik were not the main character of the game. Also keep in mind that Suikoden has always had a big list of characters in the game. Why focus so much on two characters instead of giving some shine to the others?
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| They are given the screen time because Flik and Viktor ARE the "Geddoe's Mercs" or "McDohl Family" of Riou. |
To me, Flik and Viktor were supposed to be the ones introducing Riou to the whole war. Not the one babysitting him all the time by being involved in most of the things. There's a difference between the two. Viktor and Flik should've passed the torch to someone else in Suikoden II rather than taking the spotlight once again for themselves. They could've done their job enough up to the Muse bit early on until Annabelle's death. That would've been enough introduction for Riou to the Dunan Unification War.
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| They are basically the RHM and LHM of Riou in Suikoden 2. Riou didn't have a Geddoe's "Merry Men" party,. Chris' "Fanclub" or Tir's "McDohl Family Circus" to fill the same role. He only has Nanami, who cannot offer mature emotional support or the level of experience needed to handle a war. The devs probably decided that the best people to guide Riou would be no other then who the players are already familiar with... |
It's a bit irrelevant on whether Riou had "group" or not because it's proven that in Suikoden I, despite having the "McDohl Family Circus", the group was still overshadowed by Viktor and Flik. I'm quite sure that even the group was forced into the party less than Viktor and Flik.
To me, if Viktor and Flik were to be important characters with lots of airtime because Konami wanted to push them as the players' favorite, feel free to do so, but do it with consideration of other characters' development too. Suikoden I and II were both quite short games. There wasn't enough length to develop everyone, but is it wise to spend so much on 2 characters? For 2 games too?
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| If Geddoe's man and Chris knights logically can have the screen time....I don't think why Fliktor can't. |
Because Geddoe's men and Chris' knights did not take the whole game for their screen time. They were only forced into the party when they were relevant to the storyline. The moment you got your Flame Champion, they were no longer forced into the party, because their role was for the "build up". This happened to most of other characters too. They were only involved when we were about to recruit them, and then they all disappeared.
Example:
1. Camus/Miklotov with the whole Matilda story. Once they joined, their role became significantly smaller.
2. Kirkis with the whole Kwanda/burnburnburn story. Once Kwanda was defeated and recruited, Kirkis pretty much had no more role in the game.
Compare to Flik and Viktor. They were there throughout the game. From the beginning to the end. They were always there one way or the other. There wasn't enough time for other characters to shine. That's why I think they were being shoved down our throats.
My point is, why continually stick to Viktor and Flik? Why not let us create a new "Viktor and Flik" in form of other characters being important? Variety is one of the strong points of Suikoden, and Fliktor limit the variety significantly. That's why I'm against the idea of them having big role in Suikoden game.
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Rainrir
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| Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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Hahaha....I have a feeling that I am becoming your Yuber.... :twisted:
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I disagree. Tir had had enough support from his own "group" (Pahn, Gremio, Cleo) that adding Viktor and Flik would pretty much leave no room for others to show what they got. I can understand that Viktor was needed at the beginning. But to the extent of having him in the party non-stop until Kirkis showed up? That's a lot and not "small part of the early game" like you said.
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Well, if my 15 odd years of play RPGs is taken into account, silent heroes are defined by their speaking party members. There is a large amiunt of development on Viktor and Flik in S1 because their development shows Tir's growth to the player. In a game, where Tir cannot speak for himself, his companions help the player imagine how Tir has progressed.
It is not the same as them having more development then Tir, that only happens if they develop INDEPENDENTLY of him. All of their development in S1 is tied directly to Tir, so in reality their growth reflects o Tir's growth as well.
The McDohl family cannot fill the same spot as Flik and Viktor, on the virtue that they are HIS FAMILY. A uniter is not much of a uniter if only people who are his family are close to him. Part of Fliktor's tematic importance was that both are STRANGERS to Tir, and will show the player how its like in the "real" world with people who are strangers rather then the almost unconditionally supportive McDohl Family.
Development can occur in parts, sometimes only two lines or dialouge can be used to show a character. Just because Viktor didn't seem to do anything great during the early game to Kirkis, doesn't mean he didn't have any significance. He plays the role of a outside friend who observes McDohl and his "family".
Oh yea, party force-ins are very annoying in suikoden. Especially Nanami, but if it adds development..why not? Of course, sometimes there are just not enough development....
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Also keep in mind that Suikoden has always had a big list of characters in the game. Why focus so much on two characters instead of giving some shine to the others?
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I can't answer that. Because I don't know what the DEVs are thinking when they made S1.
S1 was extremely different for its time, with 108 characters and such. You cannot expect the Devs then to have an idea how to develop everyone. Even after 5 games in the series, I still feel they are trying to find the best way to make everyone developed. I believe that Fliktor's prominence was to give the script writers a "core" group to work with.
Remember Pahn and Gremio both "drops the bomb" on the player, it is possible to lose this two forever. They cannot be part of the "core" group because of that. I do not know why Cleo falls off the face of the planet after that...its probably because her story is too linked to Pahn and Gremio's to be a string standalone character( or something)
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To me, Flik and Viktor were supposed to be the ones introducing Riou to the whole war. Not the one babysitting him all the time by being involved in most of the things. There's a difference between the two. Viktor and Flik should've passed the torch to someone else in Suikoden II rather than taking the spotlight once again for themselves. They could've done their job enough up to the Muse bit early on until Annabelle's death. That would've been enough introduction for Riou to the Dunan Unification War.
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We differ greatly on this. Can't say you are wrong, but I do feel that Fliktor are trying to guide or "babysit" Riou along the way. But that is basically Riou's character trait...that EVERYONE from Shu to Teresa to Nanami to Fliktor is babysitting him.
Therefore, I DO think their role was to babysit him.
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It's a bit irrelevant on whether Riou had "group" or not because it's proven that in Suikoden I, despite having the "McDohl Family Circus", the group was still overshadowed by Viktor and Flik. I'm quite sure that even the group was forced into the party less than Viktor and Flik.
To me, if Viktor and Flik were to be important characters with lots of airtime because Konami wanted to push them as the players' favorite, feel free to do so, but do it with consideration of other characters' development too. Suikoden I and II were both quite short games. There wasn't enough length to develop everyone, but is it wise to spend so much on 2 characters? For 2 games too?
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As I have said, the McDohl Familt Circus can potentially lose up to two memebers permanently. They get overshadowed because one dies 1/3 into the game while the other CAN DIE 1/2 way into the game.
If Fliktor has been in the presence of a somewhat more permanent group, I do believe their role will be smaller. Furthermore, Konami didn't earmark them as the player's pick. They ARE the most popular S1 characters by far. Its their intent to provide some fanservice (back when it met things other then ecchi) but its not their intent that Fliktor are so popular.
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Because Geddoe's men and Chris' knights did not take the whole game for their screen time.
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That because they only feature prominently in 1/3 of the game, instead of a full game like Fliktor. If the ENTIRE game is told from Chris' or Ged's POV. I bet these people are gonna be there forever, moreso then Fliktor.
There is a fundermental split in the way the storytelling works in S3 due to the TSS, it is not really simple to compare S3 with the rest.
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My point is, why continually stick to Viktor and Flik? Why not let us create a new "Viktor and Flik" in form of other characters being important? Variety is one of the strong points of Suikoden, and Fliktor limit the variety significantly. That's why I'm against the idea of them having big role in Suikoden game.
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They don't HAVE to use them over and over. But what I am saying is that if they evercome back, we should have an open mind and see how well-exercuted they are in their next appearence. If they are done well, I don't see why NOT to have them back..though it ain't a MUST.
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Aurelien
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| Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Hahaha....I have a feeling that I am becoming your Yuber.... |
Nah, it's something normal for me ^^ No big deal. Just having different opinions and we're discussing our different point of views ^^
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silent heroes are defined by their speaking party members. There is a large amiunt of development on Viktor and Flik in S1 because their development shows Tir's growth to the player. In a game, where Tir cannot speak for himself, his companions help the player imagine how Tir has progressed.
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I agree that other characters ("the companions") help the player imagine how Tir has progressed. However, I don't think that "the companions" have to be in form of the same characters all the time.
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| A uniter is not much of a uniter if only people who are his family are close to him. Part of Fliktor's tematic importance was that both are STRANGERS to Tir, and will show the player how its like in the "real" world with people who are strangers rather then the almost unconditionally supportive McDohl Family. |
This is exactly why I think Flik and Viktor ended up more damaging than helping. Uniter unites the strangers. Yet, the focus has always been on Viktor and Flik playing the roles of "strangers" when there are around a hundred other strangers too that were being united by Tir McDohl. The idea that the player get should've been "Tir unites everyone and becomes a good leader". Instead, the message that we really got turned into "Tir unites everyone, but it seems that only Flik and Viktor are the ones supporting him"
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| But that is basically Riou's character trait...that EVERYONE from Shu to Teresa to Nanami to Fliktor is babysitting him. |
Exactly. But now the question becomes, why focus on Viktor and Flik again to babysit Riou while there are other characters that could be babysitting him too? Like I mentioned before, characters like Camus and Miklotov had the potential to play an important role, yet their role pretty much ended as soon as they joined the army. There are lots of potential from other characters that could be used to babysit Riou. Instead, Viktor and Flik once again stole the spotlight. To me, this seems awfully redundant since we've had the same thing happening before in Suikoden I anyways. Suikoden II could've been used to elevate other characters to the level of popularity as Viktor and Flik. But instead, it's wasted.
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| that because they only feature prominently in 1/3 of the game, instead of a full game like Fliktor. If the ENTIRE game is told from Chris' or Ged's POV. I bet these people are gonna be there forever, moreso then Fliktor. |
No, what I meant is that once Chris-Geddoe-Hugo joined up, these "companions" no longer forced their way into the screen. Their role ended once they've guided their respective leaders. Even if you only play Chris' chapters and ignored the other ones, you'd still see that the Zexen Knights wouldn't be there all the time throughout the game.
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| If they are done well, I don't see why NOT to have them back..though it ain't a MUST. |
Because if they are done well, then they'd end up taking the whole game again to get their spotlight. And that spotlight could've been used for other characters instead.
Imagine playing basketball. Your team has been greatly developing, and then Michael Jordan suddenly said that he wanted to play for your team. You think, that's great he's the best basketball player ever. So you said okay he can come to the team. Then what happened? The ball starts to go to his hands all the time, and your "original" players ended up having less role that their development as basketball players got stuck due to this legendary player coming to the team. Your team might win more games now that you have a player that scores 30-40 points per game. But your other players wouldn't be improving as they see their role getting smaller and smaller.
Same goes with Flik and Viktor. Everytime they show up in the future, that's the time that could've been used to further develop other characters being wasted on 2 characters that had been very much developed in the past. The future shouldn't be about the past. Flik and Viktor are parts of the past and we should leave them there. Or think about it this way, what is it that we need to know more about Flik and Viktor? We've known pretty much everything about them already. What we knew about them had been TONS more than what we knew about most of the other characters.
Or let me just ask you this, Rainrir. Let's make it simple. Would you prefer to see a well-done appearance by Viktor and Flik in Suikoden VI? Or would you prefer to see other characters (may they be new characters or returning characters that are not Viktor or Flik) being shown well-done in Suikoden VI? I know I'd pick the latter.
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Rainrir
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| Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:27 am Post subject: |
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However, I don't think that "the companions" have to be in form of the same characters all the time.
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The idea that the player get should've been "Tir unites everyone and becomes a good leader". Instead, the message that we really got turned into "Tir unites everyone, but it seems that only Flik and Viktor are the ones supporting him"
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Nice ideas. Too bad S1 isn't really that big a game, nor was it very feasible to do so then. It was too difficult to really build screen time and events for all 108 characters. Especially when the whole team itself was new to the concept and had no predecessor to base their game on. It was a pilot project and they probably had to condense the "feeling" to two characters the Hero meets at the start, to achieve a more traditional storytelling.
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Like I mentioned before, characters like Camus and Miklotov had the potential to play an important role, yet their role pretty much ended as soon as they joined the army. There are lots of potential from other characters that could be used to babysit Riou. Instead, Viktor and Flik once again stole the spotlight. To me, this seems awfully redundant since we've had the same thing happening before in Suikoden I anyways. Suikoden II could've been used to elevate other characters to the level of popularity as Viktor and Flik. But instead, it's wasted.
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Yea Camus and Mik should have been forced into the party at Matilda..but that's already over..too bad.
On the other hand, I think they basically serve the same purpose as Alan and Grenseal in S1. They are the knights that joined then forgottened, TWO commanders in the presence of many in the army. Seriously, I think they can only be important to events concerning Matilda.
Again, it is really too bad that the FIRST TWO "war" characters Riou meets is Fliktor. The hyper early meeting pretty much set in stone the fact that Riou will be developed in the context of these two.
Given that, Riou and Jowy are meant to "drop" into Dunan terrority to escape the Highland trrops, I find it hard to believe that any Dunan mercernary will treat a Highland Uniform Brigade member the way Fliktor did. The Devs might think the cognitive dissonance is too great and tried to us two people that the fans are already familar with, with a reputation for being more true-blue then blue LOL.
While Fliktor did more in S2 then S1, they didn't force themselves in as often...remember that and they didn't have THAT much party time and their screen time was less...compared to S1. Even when they did MORE STUFF and are more developed in S2.
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Or let me just ask you this, Rainrir. Let's make it simple. Would you prefer to see a well-done appearance by Viktor and Flik in Suikoden VI? Or would you prefer to see other characters (may they be new characters or returning characters that are not Viktor or Flik) being shown well-done in Suikoden VI? I know I'd pick the latter.
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It would be great to see either. I really don't mind anything. Your analogy sounds right, except that great development does not neccessarily mean alot of screen time nor do that come at the cost of other characters
They can do it like they did in S5, which serveral characters played a big role and have lots of development but realtively minor party-screen time.
I know you never player S5, but its a sign that they are getting the 108 character development balance right...
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Aurelien
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| Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 11:56 am Post subject: |
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| Nice ideas. Too bad S1 isn't really that big a game, nor was it very feasible to do so then. It was too difficult to really build screen time and events for all 108 characters. |
I'm not saying to develop all 108 SoDs (unless we have a ridiculously gazillion hour long game, it's impossible to do). I'm simply saying that Flik and Viktor took too much screentime and hence, they ended up limiting the others that could've benefit from the screentime if given to them instead of to Flik and Viktor.
I mean, Viktor and Flik were forced into the party so many times. Would it hurt them if they were forced into the party less? Not really. But by being forced into the party so often, they left no room for others to take part. My point is that it was not necessary to have Viktor and Flik that much at all.
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| On the other hand, I think they basically serve the same purpose as Alan and Grenseal in S1. They are the knights that joined then forgottened, TWO commanders in the presence of many in the army. |
I disagree very much here. Alen and Grenseal didn't play any part at all. They were only there serving Teo, then they joined the Liberation Army based on Teo's last wish. That's that. No role at all. We didn't even get to fight them or whatnot. Nada. No role.
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| Seriously, I think they can only be important to events concerning Matilda. |
I disagree on this part as well. Think about it this way. City-States of Jowston consisted of the City-States. They were Muse, Matilda, Greenhill, Tinto, South Window, and Two River. Out of those, the "main characters" that were usable to fight were Camus, Miklotov, Freed Y, Shin, and Hauser. The non-usable "main characters" were Teresa, Gustav, Makai, Ridley, Jess, Fitcher. These characters were the ones that were supposed to be the core of City-States of Jowston Army (with the help of Riou and Shu obviously). However, they were still overshadowed by Viktor and Flik whom both were pretty much "outsiders".
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| Again, it is really too bad that the FIRST TWO "war" characters Riou meets is Fliktor. The hyper early meeting pretty much set in stone the fact that Riou will be developed in the context of these two. |
This is why I think it would be better if Viktor and Flik's roles were to be the ones introducing Riou rather than babysitting him throughout the whole war. Because Viktor and Flik appeared early in the game, they could've been used to "help Riou get used to how things are going". Maybe play a big role up to getting the HQ and then let the other characters babysit Riou instead. There is no real need to have Viktor and Flik throughout the whole game. It was unnecessary and once again, it limited the other characters.
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| except that great development does not neccessarily mean alot of screen time nor do that come at the cost of other characters |
Well it would mean that since Viktor and Flik were already greatly developed (dare I say the most developed characters out of the whole Suikoden characters?). They don't really need "more development". Hence, whatever development that is given to them in the future series (if they showed up) would be at the cost of other characters.
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| I know you never player S5, but its a sign that they are getting the 108 character development balance right... |
I'm currently just starting the game today ^^ (Happy happy wheeeee), so I sure hope that you are right on this one and that they start to get the balance right. =D
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Rainrir
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| Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 4:58 am Post subject: |
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| I disagree on this part as well. Think about it this way. City-States of Jowston consisted of the City-States. They were Muse, Matilda, Greenhill, Tinto, South Window, and Two River. Out of those, the "main characters" that were usable to fight were Camus, Miklotov, Freed Y, Shin, and Hauser. The non-usable "main characters" were Teresa, Gustav, Makai, Ridley, Jess, Fitcher. These characters were the ones that were supposed to be the core of City-States of Jowston Army (with the help of Riou and Shu obviously). However, they were still overshadowed by Viktor and Flik whom both were pretty much "outsiders". |
Yes, they are important because they are INSIDERS but they do not have much context outside their individual domains. Why would Teresa be important to anywhere outside Greenhill? Camus and Miktolov cannot really be that infuential in the political scene beyond Matilda. Ridley has no say in whatever Tinto decides.
Riou, like Flik and Viktor, ARE outsiders and that alone is an important disntinction. Riou is the son of Genkaku, but otherwise NOT related to any of the City States. This are IMPORTANT aspects and factors that allow him to become the "leader" or "figurehead" of the Dunan forces. He will not be perceived as being unfair to anyother memeber of the alliance as he is not from any of the fractions.
One of the reasons why Annabelle failed to rally everyone was because she had the baggage of being the leader of Muse-Region. Tinto left the alliance after Riou left, pretty much for self-gain while they joined willingly when Riou was around.
This must also be true for the RHM and LHM of the leader. If Riou is too close to any other fraction, there might be internal discord. Remember, not everyone is exactly in love with each other in the Jowstone League. I think Viktor and Flik's unique position as "outsiders" allow them to work more closely with Riou, without repurcussions, then the "Main" City-State people.
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Aurelien
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| Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 6:02 am Post subject: |
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| Why would Teresa be important to anywhere outside Greenhill? |
Errr .. because Greenhill is an important part of City-States of Jowston like Tinto, Muse, Two River, Matilda, and South Window? Just like how these 6 had a meeting at Jowston Hill at the beginning of the game? To show that these 6 regions have important role to play as a nation.
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| Camus and Miktolov cannot really be that infuential in the political scene beyond Matilda. |
Why not? Gorudo was one of the participants in Jowston Hill meeting. Camus and Miklotov were pretty much Gorudo's replacement in the Alliance Army under Riou. Surely they had some role to play too instead of just sitting pretty.
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| Ridley has no say in whatever Tinto decides. |
I never said that he has. I'm saying that Ridley would have important role to play in the Alliance Army.
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| One of the reasons why Annabelle failed to rally everyone was because she had the baggage of being the leader of Muse-Region |
This is not true. Clearly shown by the fact that Hauser was the one representing Muse at the Jowston Hill meeting. While Annabelle did lead Muse, she let Hauser took that role during the meeting to keep herself impartial.
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| Riou is the son of Genkaku, but otherwise NOT related to any of the City States. This are IMPORTANT aspects and factors that allow him to become the "leader" or "figurehead" of the Dunan forces. |
Not exactly true either. Riou became the leader because of 2 things. First one is that he bore Bright Shield Rune, and second one is that he showed to each City-State leader of his capability. He saved Teresa, he saved Two River, he saved Lilly Pendragon, he disagreed to Gorudo to show Camus/Miklotov that there would be a new home for them if they would like to quit Matilda Knights, he helped solve the North Window case for South Window. All of these actions showed that Riou was a capable leader. And once the City-States joined under the Alliance Army, there was no longer quarrels between City-States representatives. So there is no such thing as "If Riou is too close to any other faction" situation at all.
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| I think Viktor and Flik's unique position as "outsiders" allow them to work more closely with Riou, without repurcussions, then the "Main" City-State people. |
That is not a problem if say Konami decided to split equal development for each City-State people (for example: 3 sidequests for Matilda, and also 3 for Greenhill, South Window, Tinto, Muse, and Two River). Fair, no?
Oh well, I'm a tad tired of this to be honest. I think I've said all that I wanted. In the end, Viktor and Flik have had so much exposure that they're at the bottom of the list of the characters that I would like to see in the future Suikoden games.
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