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Admiral Ackbar
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 Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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But, I believe he knew what he was attempting to do was impossible, as well. He wanted to take his own life above all else.
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I agree that Luc wanted to die. He could have easily destroyed one of the True Runes he stole during Suikoden 3 instead of his. He wanted to die because he didn't want to live as a host for a True Rune. But he never would have killed Tir or Riou. In Suikoden 3 Luc speaks a line about how Hugo reminds him of an old friend (something about thier eyes looking the same?) so he obviously held them in higher regard. Plus he probably didn't know about it until after Suikoden 2.
I also agree that what he was doing was impossible. He had the 108 Stars of Destiny against him (even though he was one). Let's face it, if you're fighting an army that has the Stone Tablet and Stars of Destiny on its side...destiny has royally screwed you over in favor of another.
The real kicker for me is why he didn't use the Star Dragon Sword. I mean c'mon, when Luc is in Le Buque village and reveals his plan to Sarah, Edge is standing right outside the building Luc is in! Luc knew of the sword from the previous two games. Or maybe he knew the Star Dragon Sword would whoop him a good one if he tried?
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But, the fact still remains that it is only one of an infinite possible outcomes that Luc has chosen to see.
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Geddoe has also seen some of this vision as well so I doubt Luc made it up. And yes, it IS one of many possiblities. But it is the ONE possiblity that WILL happen if someone doesn't stop it from actually happening. Again, I doubt they would base an entire game on a fluke vision. The game makers even have Luc show you what the future will be like, the "grey world", and he goes to great lengths explaining the true nature of the True Runes and what they desire: the eventual destruction of human life.
And he does mention that it has happened before. I can't remember if it is in chapter 5 or his secret chapter though.
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Explain why Sierra's existence. Explain the fact that she wears modern clothes from over 800 years ago. Explain how she came from a town. Explain how this happened if the world came into existence in such a short time before she was born. You can't.
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I can. And I already did. My reasons have as much credit as yours. Since the story of Sword and Shield is fact, not myth, there are a multitude of possiblilities why Sierra comes from civilization.
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It is unarguably nothing more than a myth because it can't proven. Sorry.
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If its a myth then why does Leknaat bring it up?
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Actually, many years before Harmonia existed as Harmonia came after Aronia which even had Sindar presence.
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I've never read anything about Sindar being around during Aronia. Additonally, there is not anything that says Sindar have been around more than 1,000 years.
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| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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Everything about the Sindar is considered to be a mystery except for the fact that there leader has the Rune of Change and they were looking for their "Eternal Capital".
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I think that the Eternal Capital may be the world that will not end because of the True runes.
And the mytth of creation may be the first creation of the world then somthing like the rune of the Beginning will start over without the sword and shield or well it is the sword and shield so..
I think will have to wait till S5 or over :(
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Urn
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| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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But he never would have killed Tir or Riou.
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I agree, but he did not need to kill them in order to destroy their runes. Tir had not beared the Soul Eater long enough that him losing that True Rune would effect his life span. And the Bright Shield Rune isn't a True Rune at all. It would be much more feasible to attack those particular runes to prevent others from becoming like him, cursed by their destiny. He would have seen it as a favor to them. And I also wonder why he never decided to use the Zodiac Sword. That is rather fishy.
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Geddoe has also seen some of this vision as well so I doubt Luc made it up. And yes, it IS one of many possiblities. But it is the ONE possiblity that WILL happen if someone doesn't stop it from actually happening. Again, I doubt they would base an entire game on a fluke vision. The game makers even have Luc show you what the future will be like, the "grey world", and he goes to great lengths explaining the true nature of the True Runes and what they desire: the eventual destruction of human life.
And he does mention that it has happened before. I can't remember if it is in chapter 5 or his secret chapter though.
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I didn't say it was a fluke vision. I said it was based on Luc's interpretation of the vision the True Wind Rune gave him. As I pointed out, he has a very biased opinion of the goals of the True Runes. The game makers wouldn't go through the whole point of saying it is one possible outcome if they weren't trying to imply that there are various ways to interpret the vision.
It is quite possible that due to his own bias views of the True Runes he believed that the vision was trying to imply that he should destroy his True Wind Rune. But, as we see he wanted to destroy it for personal reasons. Also, the vision didn't have any words or a voice when he displayed it. Thus, he had to interpret its meaning. And I didn't say he didn't I just said I don't remember it and would have to go back and play the game again.
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I can. And I already did. My reasons have as much credit as yours. Since the story of Sword and Shield is fact, not myth, there are a multitude of possiblilities why Sierra comes from civilization.
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But, you haven't. One person says it was the Sindar and you say it was the True Runes. I see no reason for them to institute civilization, if as you say Luc saw in his vision and it is truth, they ultimately plan to inflict unending Order where nothing will change. Just doesn't make much sense.
Why create a world of people and help them prosper only to make them completely stagnant and unchanging? So, again, you haven't really explained anything. And your fact, the Creation Story, states that the 27 True Runes were created by the Sword and Shield, too, but unfortunately there were already 27 Jewels present on the Sword and Shield beforehand making it impossible that they were created by them.
Also, we have the Bright Shield and Black Sword Runes who so obviously symbolize the Sword and Shield, but ironically the Sword and Shield are suppose to be the Sky and Earth of the realm we have seen. Hmm, something is quite wrong there. So, you see, there are flaws in this story which makes it not fact but a simple explanation.
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If its a myth then why does Leknaat bring it up?
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You act as if Leknaat is not a member of that realm. She is subseptable to the telling of myths, too. She can only explain what she has been taught. That is like saying why do Catholic's quote the Bible when they know much of it is simple myth. It is an easier way of explaining an occurence which has no explanation or which they have no previous knowledge about.
Again, if every one says something one way and there is no other explanation in contrary then it will eventually become truth. Have you ever heard the saying that the victor writes history. It is very possible that the true history of the world has been hidden or that the true history has been lost. Either way, the story cannot be proven as fact and has many flaws as I pointed out earlier.
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I've never read anything about Sindar being around during Aronia. Additonally, there is not anything that says Sindar have been around more than 1,000 years.
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No, there is nothing that states the Sindar predated 1000 years on the Suikoden World, but we can piece it together ourselves. Recall that Harmonia was established after taking over Aronia. Now, within that region there were already Sindar Ruins. Now, neither Harmonia or Aronia created them thereselves. Aronia was around long before Harmonia and it is apparent that the Sindar were there before them based on the fact that there were Sindar Ruins already present there.
Now, we go to the timeline and we see that the IS calendar began right after Hikusaak created the Harmonian Kingdom. The Sindar Ruins predate Aronia and we have no idea how long they were around. Now we look at Sierra who was alive 375 years before the Harmonian Kingdom was even established. She had recollection of the Sindar due to the fact that magic was obviously around at that time as she could only chant runic spells by using the Sindaran language.
Now we can assume with good precision that runic magic was certainly around before then as I'm pretty sure the Blue Moon Rune was buried for quite some time and we see that the True Runes also give birth to lower tier runes. Aside from that, someone had to write down the Creation Story, correct? That would imply that someone had at least some knowledge about True Runes and their part in creating the world, right? So, someone was relaying this story and someone had knowledge of True Runes before Sierra. So, again, it is safe to say that the Sindar language for the usage of runic spells was common knowledge even before Sierra.
Now, even Sierra had no recollection of ever meeting a Sindar as far as we know. This means that they were long gone even before she claimed the Blue Moon Rune. Some claim the Sindar have spread civilization, but this takes time and Sierra seemed to be very familiar with civilization and they apparently had Knights during her time. 200 years is not enough time to spread your influence all over the Suikoden World while building ruins all over the world, as well. And if the Fog Ship Guide is Sindaran as some claim, then they were more interested in claiming the True Runes and not teaching the inhabitants how to build civilizations in the first place.
More than likely they were just mortals who discovered a True Rune, their leader most likely had a vision given to him or her through that True Rune, the vision traced the landing of the True Runes in this realm to 1000 years in the past, they created the Creation Story stating that it was when the world began as in most cultures the birth of knowledge did mark the beginning of the world as they knew it, then they built shrines to honor them in the form of ruins thus leaving their mark all over the world until finding their "Eternal Capital". This is more sensible than saying that the world was created merely 1000 years ago and also gives an explanation as to why such a myth exist.
I understand that some will claim that the True Runes created civilization, but this makes no sense. Because again, why would the True Runes help provide civilization for people that they ultimately wanted to control? Why not keep them as mere lifeless vessels that they could manipulate as will? That right there gives more credibility to the fact that the True Runes had no involvement in starting civilization and it is obvious that it didn't happen in the blink of an eye, as well.
Also, it seems that the True Runes are more dependent on the mortals than the other way around. Truly not god-like in any sense of the word. Why, if they created the other worlds, aren't they locked into those worlds when they seem to be ultimately prisoners to the realm we have seen? The True Runes seem to enforce conflict and seem to avoid civilization at all cost.
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I think that the Eternal Capital may be the world that will not end because of the True runes.
And the mytth of creation may be the first creation of the world then somthing like the rune of the Beginning will start over without the sword and shield or well it is the sword and shield so..
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Actually, the Rune of Beginning is apart of the 27 True Runes believed to be created by the Sword and Shield according to the myth. So, the Rune of Beginning cannot be the Sword and Shield. And it may be possible it is the first creation of the world, but what about the millions of other worlds that seem to be totally ignored by the True Runes if they did create everything?
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| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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OH I got it that world is stagant what makes things stagant the Circle Rune the rune of stagnation and peace. So we need to find the rune of Chaos and destruction.Most likly owned by Yuber so in other theorys I was right and Yuber will be the last Hero or Odessa type charecter.
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Urn
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2005 11:30 am Post subject: |
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Actually the Sword represents Order and the Shield represents Chaos according to Luc. So, none of the True Runes would have those effects as none of them are the Sword and Shield. Thus, they would have to find the Sword if they wanted bring forth Chaos and not one of the 27 True Runes if we believe the myth to be fact. See, just taking the Creation Story to be fact causes all sorts of little flaws and inconsistencies.
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TheTyke
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2005 1:08 am Post subject: |
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I tend to think that the clash between Sword and Shield was the beginning of Life, human and otherwise, in this Suikoden world. It doesn't sound exactly as though creation was under the control of the Runes, it sounds more like a cataclysmic Big Bang sort of thing. If that were the case, then time for a slow evolution would be unnecessary - life could have come into existence fully-formed (as is many religion's belief in real anyhow).
A consciousness such as a human could have observed what was happening as soon as it came into existence, or the Creation Story could have been seen through the visions of the True Rune holders. It does not have to be just a "story". In the Suikoden 5 Trailer we see what might be Creation - the vortex of energy, with the Runes swirling about it. What if it is not a myth, but a vision seen through the True Runes? In that case, it would be more verifiable than even our history... as the Runes would serve as living witnesses to the event.
Although I don't know enough about the Suikoden world to know all the states dates and such, if Sierra had a family 150 years after Creation, that doesn't seem a stretch to me. If everyone had children when they were 20, you could have seven generations, and plenty of civilization by that time. Perhaps the Runes were scattered and were discovered one by one, over the course of history.
Just conjecture. Unfortunately, I don't have enough time these days to know the world in as much depth as some of you seem to. |
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Urn
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2005 2:32 am Post subject: |
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But who would the "everyone" be? Why would the True Runes be interested in creating civilization? Why would the True Runes create mortals through which they would have to be dependent on? It just doesn't add up.
Sure, I can buy the Sword and Shield initiating the Big Bang spawning the creation of the universe and the worlds as we know them, but recall that the Bible said everything was created in 7 days, but scientific evidence has proven that to be undeniably false. The Creation Story of Suikoden seems to be exactly the same as it is full of holes and inaccuracies.
And lets consider that it was a vision as you say that the True Runes gave the first person to bear them. Would they not only have recognition of the time when they became cogniscent of their own existence? Recall that the True Runes are not the creators of the universe. The Sword and Shield are the creators, they are supposedly the by-products according to the Creation Story.
They could have been buried for hundreds of thousands of years, dormant and unaware of anything going around. We see that the Beast Rune had to be activated through sacrifice so they do "sleep".
Is it not possible that the inhabitants uncovered these True Runes and were treated to the vision of their last memory and had no idea how much time had passed before they were awakened? Could the bearer have interpreted this to be the world's history but instead it only showed how long the True Rune had been there before "resting" and not how long the world was there as a whole?
And a complete civilzation after 150 years doesn't make much sense because I have yet to see a True Rune that has an influence on civilization. It seems they are more interested in seeing it destroyed. They have no reason to help aid humans towards becoming more prominant. The fact that most people have no idea what True Runes are at all just makes it less and less feasible that they played a significant role in the development of humans or more people would be aware that they exist.
We don't even know if people even know of the Creation Story at all based on that fact. They all worship various gods and goddesses but most make no mention of True Runes. If the Creation Story was fact, then wouldn't it be taught world wide and would most of the inhabitants know about the existence of their supposed creators?
But, anything is possible.
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2005 2:58 am Post subject: |
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I have yet to see a True Rune that has an influence on civilization
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The rune of Change.
Also what does the bible and science have to do with this that is the real world myth and fact this is Suikoden there is magic in this world it doesnt follow the same rules.
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It seems they are more interested in seeing it destroyed. They have no reason to help aid humans towards becoming more prominant
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Well it is not their choice it is some of their's perpuses. It depends on their bearers
p.s. try to type less my eyes get sore after reading your posts
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Urn
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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The rune of Change.
Also what does the bible and science have to do with this that is the real world myth and fact this is Suikoden there is magic in this world it doesnt follow the same rules.
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Nope, the Rune of Change just makes the Sindar wander from place to place until they found their "Eternal Capital". It speaks nothing of building structures, taking to making textiles, or anything like that. The things the Sindar do may very well be that they love alchemy just like dwareves like to dig and do masonry. One does not imply the other.
How do you know it doesn't follow the same rules? Or are you just assuming it doesn't? It sounds like you are making an assumption without a strand of support. The fact is that the Creation Story is very much like our world's Bible. So, they relate a great deal. And our world's Bible's creation story is a myth, so it is more than likely this Creation Story is as well. The fact is that neither can be prove so neither are fact. Give proof and then I'll say it is a fact, but until then it will just be a myth.
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Well it is not their choice it is some of their's perpuses. It depends on their bearers
p.s. try to type less my eyes get sore after reading your posts
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They choose their bearers, correct? So, it is their choice. The only forced bearers that we know of are Luc and Sasarai and even then we can see evidence of them being manipulated. They have no need to aid humans to prominence. They only use them to carry out their own wills until the bearer attains mastery of the True Rune and then there wills become one. There is no longer conflict, but they are of one single mind bent on the same desires. This could be the reason why Tir suffers. It's because he refuses to abide by the desires of the Soul Eater.
And I could be mean and say I could care less if your eyes get sore or say that if you can't keep up don't respond to my posts because there is no reason why I should limit the lengths of my statements if they're consistent with the topic. But, I won't say those things. I'll actually say that I will try to cut down on the length of my responses for your sake. ;-)
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Admiral Ackbar
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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Look, Urn, I don't know you well at all and we've probably never met before this message board. And if we have...well at this point I don't give a crap. I'm sure you're a nice person that means well. And I'm sure we could become good friends one day. And I don't doubt your love of Suikoden either. But posters like you are the reason I hate coming to message boards.
You're taking a subject no one knows the details of and claiming that you know the details and can explain everything...because apparently you can piece together the puzzle better than anyone else can.
The creation of Suikoden is something the game has purposefully not given us details about and you feel it is your duty to fill in those details with your own opinions on what the facts are, then when someone else tells thier opinion you jump in like a rabid beast and tear thier opinions to shreds as best you can. The problem is, no one knows the exact details of this subject and we may never so you have no right to tell other people that they are wrong and you are right on an issue you know so very little about yourself.
I have no problem with anyone explaining why they think thier opinion is right. I also have no problem with anyone pointing out why anyone else's opinion may be wrong. But you go above and beyond that. You don't simply explain why someone may be wrong, you just flat out tell them that everything they say is wrong and pick apart thier statements because it conflicts with your views. You don't simply give reasons for why you may be right, you dictate that everything you say makes more sense than anything anyone else is saying because you think you're more informed than they are on a subject no one is informed on.
The fact is that the Creation story of Suikoden is not a myth. This is not something that gets debated with any real merit. It is Suikoden fact. It happened. It is a part of Suikoden's backstory.
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| As I pointed out, he has a very biased opinion of the goals of the True Runes. The game makers wouldn't go through the whole point of saying it is one possible outcome if they weren't trying to imply that there are various ways to interpret the vision. |
I suggest you play parts of Suikoden 3 over again.
The creators didn't just say it was one possible outcome. The game makes it very obvious that it is the outcome if nothing is done to stop it. It is the existence all True Runes crave and eventually strive for. It is the end of humanity's existence. Geddoe even acknowledges this in his story, but he goes against Luc because he disagrees with how Luc is trying to save the world. Geddoe (and his allies) would rather have everyone die, as opposed to having many people die and a few people saved by one man's hands.
Luc never hated his True Wind Rune until he saw the vision. He had no reason to really. If you notice his behavior in Suikoden 1 he's a bit of a mischievous kid with a sarcastic grin. It fades away in Suikoden 2 and is gone by Suikoden 3. He had no ill will against the world until the visions came to him from the rune. It was the visions that sparked his hatred for the True Runes in the first place, not the other way around. So no...I don't believe he interpretted them incorrectly. He saw what he saw, and understood what he saw, and then decided to take action. Whether or not his actions were moral, and whether or not his actions would accomplish anything or save anyone, is a different matter.
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| ...if as you say Luc saw in his vision and it is truth, they ultimately plan to inflict unending Order where nothing will change. Just doesn't make much sense. |
You're right, it doesn't make sense, but that doesn't change it from being true. That doesn't change the fact that all True Runes desire perfect Order from this world. Just because it doesn't make sense now doesn't mean it is false. Konami will tell us the rest of the story and explain things in more detail whenever they feel like it. And right now they don't want us to know everything.
Just because we don't know the full story yet doesn't make it a lie. If Konami were to tell us everything in one game we wouldn't have much reason to keep playing.
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| Also, we have the Bright Shield and Black Sword Runes who so obviously symbolize the Sword and Shield, but ironically the Sword and Shield are suppose to be the Sky and Earth of the realm we have seen. Hmm, something is quite wrong there. So, you see, there are flaws in this story which makes it not fact but a simple explanation. |
Yes something is wrong. You have your facts mixed. The Bright Shield and Black Sword do not "obviously symbolize" the Shield and the Sword. They represent conflict. Plain and simple. The Rune of Beginning governs conflict and peace. When it splits into two parts they are a sword and a shield. Yes, they resemble Sword and Shield in name (but not appearance, check out the beginning of the intro to Suikoden 2 where you see Sword and Shield) but they are not directly connected to Sword and Shield.
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| That is like saying why do Catholic's quote the Bible when they know much of it is simple myth. |
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| ...but recall that the Bible said everything was created in 7 days, but scientific evidence has proven that to be undeniably false. |
I'm an atheist myself. But I'm sure there are plenty of devout Christians/Catholics on this message board that really don't appreciate you telling them that thier strongly held religious beliefs and ancient holy texts are false. Most Americans believe in the evnts of the Bible. I'd be careful not to bring the Bible up again if I were you.
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| ...but what about the millions of other worlds that seem to be totally ignored by the True Runes if they did create everything? |
They move from one world to the next. They aren't ignoring the other worlds, they just haven't gotten to them yet. Or they already have gotten to them and did what they've done so many times before. Right now it is the world of Suikoden's turn in the blender.
We don't know all the details. We may never know all the details. So we don't know all the details yet. Big deal. That doesn't make what we do know false. And what we do know is the True Runes travel from one world to another in the Million Worlds, doing the same thing they're doing now: creating perfect Order and moving onward. No one knows why.
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| See, just taking the Creation Story to be fact causes all sorts of little flaws and inconsistencies. |
Only if you interpret the Creation story as more than what it is. It is purposefully left undetailed and thus far we have yet to explore the details of Suikoden's creation. This means there will be flaws. This means there will be inconsistencies. These flaws and inconsistencies will stay until Konami decides to explain everything to us, which they may never do. This is true of any plot element in any story. Certain elements will be left out to keep you wondering, or because the story just isn't ready to explain everything yet. Just cool down and wait for it. Just because they haven't explained it yet doesn't mean its a lie or a myth.
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| We see that the Beast Rune had to be activated through sacrifice so they do "sleep". |
The Beast Rune wasn't sleeping. It choose Highland as it's residence and choose to allow the Blight family to use it's power when they needed it. If it didn't want to it would have left. The blood sacrifice is required to use it's abilities at all it seems. True Runes do sleep, but they go away from civilization when they do. The Beast Rune was very much active, but choose not to have a living bearer, much like the Sovereign Rune within the Dragon King Sword.
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| The fact that most people have no idea what True Runes are at all just makes it less and less feasible that they played a significant role in the development of humans or more people would be aware that they exist. |
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If the Creation Story was fact, then wouldn't it be taught world wide and would most of the inhabitants know about the existence of their supposed creators?
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But people do know what they are. There are books about them even, and most people in Suikoden can read. Most people know True Runes exist, though they may be only be aware of only one or two from thier region.
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Zaj I mean Mike
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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Nope, the Rune of Change just makes the Sindar wander from place to place until they found their "Eternal Capital". It speaks nothing of building structures
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The traviling was the curse of the Rune of Change we dont know what it can do. Hell it may be the rune of plastic sergury and change what you look like.
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You're taking a subject no one knows the details of and claiming that you know the details and can explain everything...because apparently you can piece together the puzzle better than anyone else can.
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You described me :o
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Zeik Tuvai
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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Know what would be a great twist?
The True Runes are really just parasitical aliens from another planet. You know, like the Goa'Uld, from Star Gate (sorry for the horrid butchering of the little snakes' name). I mean, the Runes really are parasitic, aren't they? Need human bodies to live in and all. I remember Luc stating something about the crystals he uses to steal the other True Runes are really filled with human organs and stuff. Just a morbid and sick thought I thought I'd share with you all 8-)
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Urn
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Joined: 16 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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Look, Urn, I don't know you well at all and we've probably never met before this message board. And if we have...well at this point I don't give a crap. I'm sure you're a nice person that means well. And I'm sure we could become good friends one day. And I don't doubt your love of Suikoden either. But posters like you are the reason I hate coming to message boards.
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Look, Blue Thunder, I'll keep the reply to this statement as short as possible. I don't care about why or what you hate and I'm really not concerned with making you into a friend. If you have a problem with what I post then simply don't respond to it and ignore it. You can do that, right? ;-)
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You're taking a subject no one knows the details of and claiming that you know the details and can explain everything...because apparently you can piece together the puzzle better than anyone else can.
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Apparently I can if you say so. But, remember you said it and I didn't. And I don't see your point. How is this relevant to Suikoden World Creation? :?
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The creation of Suikoden is something the game has purposefully not given us details about and you feel it is your duty to fill in those details with your own opinions on what the facts are, then when someone else tells thier opinion you jump in like a rabid beast and tear thier opinions to shreds as best you can. The problem is, no one knows the exact details of this subject and we may never so you have no right to tell other people that they are wrong and you are right on an issue you know so very little about yourself.
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I don't recall saying that no one can give their opinion. So, I'd suggest calming down and taking your own suggestions. Because it seems that you are saying that anyone can give their opinion as long as isn't me. You sound rather foolish and childish going off on tangents like this.
And again I never told anyone they were wrong. I gave my opinion and produced evidence to back it up and never mentioned one person was wrong. It is all just my belief. So, calm down and take your own advice into consideration before making any further comments to me about this.
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I have no problem with anyone explaining why they think thier opinion is right. I also have no problem with anyone pointing out why anyone else's opinion may be wrong. But you go above and beyond that. You don't simply explain why someone may be wrong, you just flat out tell them that everything they say is wrong and pick apart thier statements because it conflicts with your views. You don't simply give reasons for why you may be right, you dictate that everything you say makes more sense than anything anyone else is saying because you think you're more informed than they are on a subject no one is informed on.
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If you don't have a problem then I don't see the point of this paragraph at all. You seem very childish because you can't have your way or because you are frustrated that you can't prove me wrong. Either way, I have no interest in dealing with this childish sort of response. This could have very easily been PM'd to me if you had these issues. And again, I never dictated anything.
I never said I made more sense than anyone nor did I say I was more informed, but obviously you feel that my explanations do make more sense and that I am more informed or you wouldn't be making these ridiculous statements and accusations. As they say, if you can't take the heat stay the hell out of the kitchen. So, I think that you have to look within yourself and find a solution as the issues you have is certainly a personal problem which is not my no concern.
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The fact is that the Creation story of Suikoden is not a myth. This is not something that gets debated with any real merit. It is Suikoden fact. It happened. It is a part of Suikoden's backstory.
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And it is not a fact until it can be proven. So, like I said before, until it is proven then I will consider it a myth. If you can't handle that then move on. I never said that you didn't have to take it as fact. I said I will not take it as a fact and that I will take it as a myth. Now I don't know when I became you, but I think you should reevaluate yourself.
A fact needs proof and from what I've seen that there is no way to prove that the Creation Story is fact, so calm yourself and unless you can prove it then kindly accept it is just a myth until proven, but you can call it whatever you want. It won't bother me at all so I don't know why my views bother you at all. I think you are taking this way too personally. Woo saa, for you.
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I suggest you play parts of Suikoden 3 over again.
The creators didn't just say it was one possible outcome. The game makes it very obvious that it is the outcome if nothing is done to stop it. It is the existence all True Runes crave and eventually strive for. It is the end of humanity's existence. Geddoe even acknowledges this in his story, but he goes against Luc because he disagrees with how Luc is trying to save the world. Geddoe (and his allies) would rather have everyone die, as opposed to having many people die and a few people saved by one man's hands.
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I suggest you do the same because it is clearly stated it is one of many possible outcomes. And do you see how ridiculous this statement that Geddoe and his allies would rather have everyone die as opposed to having people die and a few people saved by one man's hands? Just do the reasoning.
Shall we save a few or let everyone die? Now, if as you say the world is destined to be destroyed and there is no possible outcome, then please explain to me why they would not destroy the True Wind Rune to save the world if it was the only possible way to save everyone as you suggest that they all were aware of? Doesn't make much sense does it? But, I'll take your word for it. ;-)
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Luc never hated his True Wind Rune until he saw the vision. He had no reason to really. If you notice his behavior in Suikoden 1 he's a bit of a mischievous kid with a sarcastic grin. It fades away in Suikoden 2 and is gone by Suikoden 3. He had no ill will against the world until the visions came to him from the rune. It was the visions that sparked his hatred for the True Runes in the first place, not the other way around. So no...I don't believe he interpretted them incorrectly. He saw what he saw, and understood what he saw, and then decided to take action. Whether or not his actions were moral, and whether or not his actions would accomplish anything or save anyone, is a different matter.
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And you sound very certain without no proof. But, we have very accurate evidence that Luc hated his existence as a tool for bearing the True Wind Rune which he found out very shortly after being freed from Harmonia by Leknaat as he went back to Harmonia to rescue Sera who was very young child at the time based on the photo of them shown at the end of the game.
Now, we know this, but we have no idea when he had the vision. We just know it was before Suikoden 3. So, I can't say for certain when his hatred for his own existence started, but at least we have evidence that he despised his existence long before Suikoden 3. Also, he knew he was a clone before Suikoden 2, as well.
His loner and sarcastic attitude along with his disdain for all around him shows that he was not a very happy individual. And as for the vision, it just shows us a grey world dominated by Order. Now, what would make him assume that he needed to destroy the True Wind Rune from just seeing that vision? He very clearly blames the True Wind Rune and Hikusaak for his morbid existence as a mere vessel. If not, then explain why he loathes the fact that he is a clone? If he hated the True Wind Rune just because of the vision, then what reason would he have to hate the fact that he is a clone vessel existing for the sole purpose to bear the True Wind Rune?
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You're right, it doesn't make sense, but that doesn't change it from being true. That doesn't change the fact that all True Runes desire perfect Order from this world. Just because it doesn't make sense now doesn't mean it is false. Konami will tell us the rest of the story and explain things in more detail whenever they feel like it. And right now they don't want us to know everything.
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And should I take it as truth because you say so? I'm trying to see what you're getting at. Can I not have a differing opinion than yours? And we don't know it is fact that all True Runes pursue Order. I'm trying to get how you get all from just possibly one or two visions given by one or two True Runes. Last time I checked there were 27 of them. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying we need more facts before we can assume that to be fact. You even agree that we need more detail. So, I don't see what you're getting at.
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Just because we don't know the full story yet doesn't make it a lie. If Konami were to tell us everything in one game we wouldn't have much reason to keep playing.
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Who said it was a lie? I'm saying it could be interpreted other ways since there are infinite possible outcomes as of right now. If the world is destined to be destroyed then there's no real reason to finish the story since we already know the ending. This suggest more than one possible outcome.
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Yes something is wrong. You have your facts mixed. The Bright Shield and Black Sword do not "obviously symbolize" the Shield and the Sword. They represent conflict. Plain and simple. The Rune of Beginning governs conflict and peace. When it splits into two parts they are a sword and a shield. Yes, they resemble Sword and Shield in name (but not appearance, check out the beginning of the intro to Suikoden 2 where you see Sword and Shield) but they are not directly connected to Sword and Shield.
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I think you are the one with your facts mixed. First, we have the fact that they are the Bright Shield and Black Sword. Now, who are the supposed creators? Yes, they are the Sword and Shield. Next, we have the fact that the Sword and Shield clash in conflict. Now, what does the Bright Shield and Black Sword force their bearers to do? They force them to conflict against one another. So, I don't know where this represent comes from anyway. I said they obviously are supposed to symbolize the Sword and Shield. And what do you think would happen if the Sword and Shield come back together with one another?
They are the creators of the universe and supposedly the ultimate powers known. The Suikoden World we know is seemingly oriented around war. So, what would be a True Rune with the ultimate power over world oriented around war? A True Rune with the power to judge war, correct?
Thus it's powers are quite equivalent to the Sword and Shield compared to how they are relevant to the Suikoden World. They seem directly connected to me. I mean why even show the image of the Sword and Shield and then put the Bright Shield and Black Sword Runes in the game if they weren't supposed to be symbolic of each other? I think facts point to their similarities.
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I'm an atheist myself. But I'm sure there are plenty of devout Christians/Catholics on this message board that really don't appreciate you telling them that thier strongly held religious beliefs and ancient holy texts are false. Most Americans believe in the evnts of the Bible. I'd be careful not to bring the Bible up again if I were you.
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Well, I've gone to Catholic school for all my life so I know plenty of devout Catholics. So, if they have a problem then let them come to me. They know that most of it is beyond reason. They know the Old Testament has flaws. I just talked to a Catholic Priest upon visiting my old high school and had the same discussion about it. I never said most of it was false, I said the Creation Story was a myth.
How does that even remotely translate into most? Again, if they have a problem then let them PM me. I'm not concerned with the possible issues of bringing up the Bible. People know very well how to get in touch with me if they have issues with what I say. I don't see how it is any of your concern.
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They move from one world to the next. They aren't ignoring the other worlds, they just haven't gotten to them yet. Or they already have gotten to them and did what they've done so many times before. Right now it is the world of Suikoden's turn in the blender.
We don't know all the details. We may never know all the details. So we don't know all the details yet. Big deal. That doesn't make what we do know false. And what we do know is the True Runes travel from one world to another in the Million Worlds, doing the same thing they're doing now: creating perfect Order and moving onward. No one knows why.
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Do you see how this is your opinion for this and in no way can be taken as fact? If it can't be proven then why should I take it as fact? We have yet to see a True Rune travel between worlds, so why should I assume they will if we haven't seen it? It's possible, of course, but I'm not going with possibilities. I'm going with what we have seen throughout the games.
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Only if you interpret the Creation story as more than what it is. It is purposefully left undetailed and thus far we have yet to explore the details of Suikoden's creation. This means there will be flaws. This means there will be inconsistencies. These flaws and inconsistencies will stay until Konami decides to explain everything to us, which they may never do. This is true of any plot element in any story. Certain elements will be left out to keep you wondering, or because the story just isn't ready to explain everything yet. Just cool down and wait for it. Just because they haven't explained it yet doesn't mean its a lie or a myth.
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As more than what it is? You claim that it is fact for the Suikoden World, but it has plenty of holes. So, is it fact or not? Facts usually apply to reason and usually don't cause inconsistencies. The Creation Story has plenty of inconsistencies that can be seen as false based on what we have seen in the story so far. So, why should I believe it to fact if it has inaccuracies all within it?
I'll cool down and wait for it, but I'm making suggestions based on what we know now. Am I wrong for having my own opinions? Whether it is a myth or not is yet to be seen, but based on the inaccuracies in the Creation Story, which is complete, then it has many flaws. A completed story that is fact wouldn't have so many problems and inconsistencies. But, I guess all I can do is wait.
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The Beast Rune wasn't sleeping. It choose Highland as it's residence and choose to allow the Blight family to use it's power when they needed it. If it didn't want to it would have left. The blood sacrifice is required to use it's abilities at all it seems. True Runes do sleep, but they go away from civilization when they do. The Beast Rune was very much active, but choose not to have a living bearer, much like the Sovereign Rune within the Dragon King Sword.
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It was very much active? What do you describe as active exactly? To me, it is doing at least something. It was doing nothing at all until Luca Blight came along and began giving it sacrifices. So, I'd say it was inactive which is what I meant by "sleeping".
And where do we have proof that True Runes all go away from civilization when they sleep? They say they can bury themselves and lay dormant, but how do you know that the Beast Rune did not just decide to lay dormant within in the castle walls? Actually, it does exactly that in every sense of the word. And of course, it could have left if it wanted to do so, but what does that have to with it being active or dormant?
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But people do know what they are. There are books about them even, and most people in Suikoden can read. Most people know True Runes exist, though they may be only be aware of only one or two from thier region.
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What do you consider most? The few individuals in the Grasslands? The few people in Falena? The few people in Toran? The few people in the Island Nations? And yes, there are books, but why are people still so oblivious? It's not like everyone is fortunate enough to be one of the 108 Stars of Destiny and get to see the True Runes in person. Just because there is information about them doesn't mean people have access to them which is plain to see by peoples continued ignorance about them.
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The traviling was the curse of the Rune of Change we dont know what it can do. Hell it may be the rune of plastic sergury and change what you look like.
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Sure, it was the curse, but where does it even imply that it builds civilizations? Either way, I think you are missing the point I was trying to make. The point I am trying to make is that the Sindar could just be naturally talented at alchemy and creativity without the assistance of a True Rune just like the dwarves are naturally talented at smithing and masonry.
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I mean, the Runes really are parasitic, aren't they? Need human bodies to live in and all.
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They are parasitic to some degree, but they don't need their bearers to exist. We have seen that some True Runes can manifest their powers on their own, but it seems that most need a bearer to bring forth their powers.
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Zaj I mean Mike
I just sell weapons
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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Sindar could just be naturally talented at alchemy
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I forgot the name but they did creat alchemy.
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but how do you know that the Beast Rune did not just decide to lay dormant within in the castle walls? Actually, it does exactly that in every sense of the word. And of course, it could have left if it wanted to do so, but what does that have to with it being active or dormant?
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It was asleep I dont know if it would affix to some one if they were right but it may be asleep all the time tell you give it blood like how Neclord couldnt use the Blue Moon rune till he killed enough.
Man come on I thought we talked about the long posts peraphrase.Although I should type more.
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Urn
Azure Flames
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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The long post wasn't for you. I saved my response to your statements for the last one. So, I apologize for it, but it really had nothing to do with you and I will reply in depth whenever someone makes any references towards me. I don't know what to say to you about the long posts, but sorry. And I don't know the meaning of paraphrase. It seems like you're addressing me as if I'm the only one making long post in this thread.
And that is the exact point I was making. It certainly lied dormant and it could wake when someone that perks its interest arrives. I don't see what it being dormant has to do with its ability to awaken. Neclord wasn't even the rightful bearer of the Blue Moon Rune. Besides, he used its spells just fine. The attack on Riou anyone? He just could not cast the spell he wanted to use without the whole brides thing.
The Beast Rune was in L'Renouille for some 50 years doing nothing. I believe it was waiting for the right person to come along and give it the sacrifices it needed, but until then it laid dormant and inactive. But, I believe it was Luca that initialy woke the Beast Rune and not Leon Silverberg. Leon just released the final seal, but it was active by then.
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Last edited by Urn on Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:34 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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