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Zaj I mean Mike
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 Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 7:44 pm Post subject: Suikoden world creation? |
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I was looking at the "Time Line" and at S3 the world was 1000 years old. But that would mean that when Sierra Mikain was born the world was only 135 years old. Then 133 years later Hikusaak deafeted the Kingdom of Aronia.Just a little after that Scarlet Moon,Highland formed than Jowstone,Obel and Falena(not in this order).This seem to happen far to fast then I remember in S3 Luc said that "This world will become like the thousands of others."
I think that maybe when the world ends possibly in eighter total chaos or order the of the runes or atleast the Rune of the Beginning restarts it. Some how it dosent have to go through the cave man age. Possibly the runes knowledge affects the world or the bears of the runes teach people.It may be the use of the Sindar speard through the world changing it giving people knowledge. Then going to sleep or a nother dimension till they can do it again.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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look at the last sentence in that entry
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| this is likely an approximation, or can be entirely false. |
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Zaj I mean Mike
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| Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah but Luc said it probly learned from the rune and it is probly close to the truth there is no widly speard religion that would chande history and every country/culture has the same story the must be some truth.
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Zeik Tuvai
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| Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Yeah but Luc said it probly learned from the rune and it is probly close to the truth there is no widly speard religion that would chande history and every country/culture has the same story the must be some truth. |
Okay, if you knew that gods existed that were upon the very same world as you, acting like parasitic beings, using humans as hosts, and changing the world around you, would you really have the need for religion? Nope. Because the same story is pretty much fact in the world of Suikoden. It is how it happened, and there's no telling what the future really holds (kinda sounds like Star Gate, huh?) Myths are stories with implied falsehood, but the story of the Runes isn't a Myth. In the Suikoden world, the Runes are fact, and are seen everywhere.
Maybe what Luc was seeing wasn't really the future. Maybe he thought it was, but it might have been the past. It might be that the world was just a bland, pointless rock, until the Black Sword and Bright Shield were born from the tear of darkness, foguht each other, and created the Suikoden world as it is currently know. Who knows? Just a thought on my part. Could be entirely wrong.
Edit: As for the whole evolution thing, from cavemen to how people are now, maybe people haven't thought to try and explain it yet. Afterall, as you said, the Suikoden world is only about 1000 years old... In recorded history. There's a lot of information that might not be recorded by history.
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Zaj I mean Mike
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| Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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if you knew that gods existed that were upon the very same world as you, acting like parasitic beings, using humans as hosts, and changing the world around you, would you really have the need for religion? Nope
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Some peopl in that world have religion in Zexen they have the Godess but I think she may have had a True rune (Saint rune following those cards there from)
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Urn
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| Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 12:29 am Post subject: |
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The fact is that we can't assume that the world started 1000 years ago to be truth like someone has mentioned. That may be the point when recorded history began and information about the past was lost. It has happened in many cultures where history has been lost and left unexplained. The fact is that Sierra obviously had a family and they obviously came from somewhere.
There is implied history that spans further back than 1000 years. The Sindar points to that themselves. Recall that if it wasn't for the Egyptian calendar and carbon dating time would have most likely started after Jesus' death and actually for all intents and purposes it has. It is pretty obvious that the Suikoden World spans further back than 1000 years which the myth states that the world was created.
Also, we cannot trust the image that Luc saw. It could have been manipulated by the True Wind Rune or it could have been something that he wanted to see. Even if it is a genuine vision, it was one of infinite possible outcomes. It arouses suspicions but really has little merit.
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Admiral Ackbar
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| Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 11:35 am Post subject: |
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I don't doubt that the True Wind Rune would lie to Luc for it's own purposes, but I highly doubt that Konami would lie to the fans about something so important.
And there doesn't need to be anything before 1,000 years prior. The True Runes could have created the world with civilizations and people and animals and plants. Maybe they brought in people from the last world they inhabited for whatever reason. Maybe the Sindar are a race of people from a previous world that had learned to survive thier world's destruction.
And Luc's vision was not one of infinite possible outcomes. He makes it quite clear that the destruction of this world will happen, just like it has before on other worlds. And if you use Geddoe as the Flame Champion he never disagrees with what Luc says (Geddoe has had his rune much longer) and if I remember correctly he even acknowledges Luc's vision. The fact that Geddoe, Chris, and Hugo all acknowledge the coming destruction of the world says something about it's accuracy.
The entire plot of Suikoden 3 revolves around Luc wanting to stop the coming destruction of the world. Konami would not base the entire plot of Suikoden 3 on a fake vision, and if they did, they would reveal that it was a fake vision.
The coming destruction of the world is Suikoden fact not Suikoden fiction. There might be a way to stop it...but the events that lead to the destrcution will still happen if no one stops it from happeneing (Like what Luc tried to do).
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| Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Blue Thunder wrote: |
I don't doubt that the True Wind Rune would lie to Luc for it's own purposes, but I highly doubt that Konami would lie to the fans about something so important.
And there doesn't need to be anything before 1,000 years prior. The True Runes could have created the world with civilizations and people and animals and plants. Maybe they brought in people from the last world they inhabited for whatever reason. Maybe the Sindar are a race of people from a previous world that had learned to survive thier world's destruction.
And Luc's vision was not one of infinite possible outcomes. He makes it quite clear that the destruction of this world will happen, just like it has before on other worlds. And if you use Geddoe as the Flame Champion he never disagrees with what Luc says (Geddoe has had his rune much longer) and if I remember correctly he even acknowledges Luc's vision. The fact that Geddoe, Chris, and Hugo all acknowledge the coming destruction of the world says something about it's accuracy.
The entire plot of Suikoden 3 revolves around Luc wanting to stop the coming destruction of the world. Konami would not base the entire plot of Suikoden 3 on a fake vision, and if they did, they would reveal that it was a fake vision.
The coming destruction of the world is Suikoden fact not Suikoden fiction. There might be a way to stop it...but the events that lead to the destrcution will still happen if no one stops it from happeneing (Like what Luc tried to do). |
While I don't think the TWR's vision of the end of the world was the definite outcome, I don't think the rune lied to Luc either. Luc says in the game that "this is the end desired by the True Rune." Expressing desire isn't exactly a lie, but it doesn't mean it will come to pass that way either. I just think Luc let it get to him a lot more than any other True Rune bearer, most likely because the rune was intertwined with his soul.
'Saving the world from fate' might have been part of his reason for doing what he did, but for the most part I think it was a justification, and that he was just trying to escape his own curse. |
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Shikai
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| Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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Luc himself said it was ONE of the world's termini.
That means its just one of many outcomes. The outcome we saw happened to be Dharma winning over Chaos. At the very least, theres gotta be a 'Chaos Termini' though that can't possibly be much better than the Dharma one. I can't think of any other temini's since the middle of those two would be Dharma and Chaos fighting for control, which is how the world is as we know it.
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Zaj I mean Mike
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| Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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Luc himself said it was ONE of the world's termini
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I think that maybe when the world ends possibly in eighter total chaos or order the of the runes or atleast the Rune of the Beginning restarts it.
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On eof the first things I said although I do have a hard time getting pionts across.So to get all of what I say you may have to change it around ( where I put things) or just read it over.
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Urn
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| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 1:15 am Post subject: |
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The True Wind Rune has no reason to lie or give a fake vision and the people at Konami have no reason to lie. I don't believe I said that. I believe I said that the True Wind Rune could have been manipulating Luc by showing him what he wanted to see and only glimpses of what may be true based on its desires and this could have been misconstrued by Luc based on his own interpretations which he would use to try and justify his own actions. It's just utilizing our lack of understanding and building a platform for future plot development.
Luc saying it was the desire of the True Runes is simply his interpretation based on the vision given to him by the True Wind Rune. I don't recall Geddoe acknowledging the vision at all, but I never played with Geddoe as the Flame Champion either. I do recall him saying that the True Lightning Rune had given him some visions, but he never went on to describe what the visions entailed. But if Geddoe, Chris and Hugo acknowledged his visions then they would have had no choice but to refuse to stop Luc's goals.
Geddoe is an astute man as well as Chris being an astute woman. They both understand making sacrifices for the good of the whole. It would be odd for them to choose the few over the many. The vision Luc had showed a world of suffering if the True Wind Rune was not destroyed. If they acknowledged that as truth they would have had no choice but to aid Luc as his goal was to prevent a world of suffering which was ironically why they banned together to stop him in the first place. So, that points to them not sharing the same sentiments as Luc. But, that could just be them not agreeing with the way he was going about doing things.
Luc assumes that the vsion he saw and interpreted was the desire of all the True Runes and that in no way implies fact. Luc despises being a True Rune bearer thus he relishes the chance to be free from his burden. Besides, Luc himself even said the vision was one of many possible outcomes. But, the plot of Suikoden 3 was based on Luc's interpretation of the vision given to him by the True Wind Rune and according to Leknaat his vision was flawed.
Either way we have to think about it for a second. Why would the True Wind Rune give Luc, it's bearer, a vision that would lead to him wanting to destroy it? Do you think he received such a vision by accident? I don't believe so. He was allowed that vision and if what you say is true then Geddoe was allowed the same vision for a reason. Geddoe did not take it to mean that the True Wind Rune should be destroyed. If he did then he would have tried to destroy it himself. So, why did Luc take the vision that way?
Could it be that Luc simply despised it because it made him nothing more than a mere tool and a simple vessel with one singular reason for existing? Maybe Luc wanted to see that vision and wanted a reason to pursue the destruction of the True Wind Rune that doomed him to an eternal and puppet-like life. Maybe the True Wind Rune knew his desire and fed on it producing a glimpse to one possible future that would lead him down the path of his own destruction. The more I look at it I believe that Luc was more so trying to destroy himself than the True Wind Rune the whole time. That's what I mean when I say he wanted the vision and he may have been manipulated by his own self hatred and hatred for his True Rune.
And you are right there doesn't need to be anything prior to 1000 years, but the facts point to undeniable proof that there was some form of history of Suikoden prior to 1000 years in which the myth said the world was created. Like I stated before, Sierra wasn't the first human to roam the world of Suikoden obviously. Also, people use Sindaran language to manifest magic. This leads one to believe that they were among the first civilization and implies a long history since they have influence all over. This implies that there were people around before her that were more than likely quite a bit older than her.
Not to mention that Sierra wore clothing before she discovered the Blue Moon Rune. This implies that there were people who manufactured textiles and various things. That implies a modern civilization in which she grew up in. This leads to the fact that these civilizations had to be founded and developed. Civilizations aren't created over night. So, you see, this leads to the obvious fact that there is much more history than the 1000 years stated in the myth. Myths don't necessarily imply truth. It is just a tale for something that has yet to be explained.
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| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 11:54 am Post subject: |
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| Geddoe is an astute man as well as Chris being an astute woman. They both understand making sacrifices for the good of the whole. It would be odd for them to choose the few over the many. The vision Luc had showed a world of suffering if the True Wind Rune was not destroyed. If they acknowledged that as truth they would have had no choice but to aid Luc as his goal was to prevent a world of suffering which was ironically why they banned together to stop him in the first place. So, that points to them not sharing the same sentiments as Luc. But, that could just be them not agreeing with the way he was going about doing things. |
Your last line is correct. Chris, Geddoe, and Hugo do not agree with Luc killing off an entire continent just to save the rest of the world.
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| Besides, Luc himself even said the vision was one of many possible outcomes. |
Yes, his vision is one of many possible outcomes. But it is the same outcome that has been reached in the past hundreds of times already. He explains that other worlds (from the Million Worlds) just like the Suikoden world have been destroyed by the True Runes in the past. Sure, you can say that the True Runes might not be doing that this time. But why not? If the True Runes have destroyed every other world they've ever been to then why the heck would they decide not to destroy this one suddenly?
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| Why would the True Wind Rune give Luc, it's bearer, a vision that would lead to him wanting to destroy it? Do you think he received such a vision by accident? I don't believe so. He was allowed that vision and if what you say is true then Geddoe was allowed the same vision for a reason. Geddoe did not take it to mean that the True Wind Rune should be destroyed. If he did then he would have tried to destroy it himself. So, why did Luc take the vision that way? |
The True Wind Rune didn't give Luc his vision so he would try to destroy it. Luc came to that conclusion on his own. He was trying to defy the fate he saw for the world. And it wasn't the True Wind Rune in particular that needed to be destroyed. It was any True Rune. Luc explains that if any True Rune is destroyed then the True Runes cannot destroy all human existence and bring about thier "Order" (Dharma). He chose his rune because it would be easiest and most convenient, and also because he feels he doesn't have much reason to live.
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| And you are right there doesn't need to be anything prior to 1000 years, but the facts point to undeniable proof that there was some form of history of Suikoden prior to 1000 years in which the myth said the world was created. |
Undeniable? Hardly. The creation of the Suikoden world isn't a myth. It was a real event that happened. Nothing existed in the Suikoden world before it was created (except Darkness of course).
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| Also, people use Sindaran language to manifest magic. This leads one to believe that they were among the first civilization and implies a long history since they have influence all over. This implies that there were people around before her that were more than likely quite a bit older than her. |
Like I said, the Sindar could have been from another world. They apparently found thier "Eternal City" according to legend, and the Fog Guide from S4 is from a place called the "Eternal City" in the World of Emptiness. The Sindar could possibly be from that realm originally.
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| Not to mention that Sierra wore clothing before she discovered the Blue Moon Rune. This implies that there were people who manufactured textiles and various things. That implies a modern civilization in which she grew up in. This leads to the fact that these civilizations had to be founded and developed. Civilizations aren't created over night. So, you see, this leads to the obvious fact that there is much more history than the 1000 years stated in the myth. Myths don't necessarily imply truth. It is just a tale for something that has yet to be explained. |
Like I said, the True Runes could have created civilization where there was none. In this case, civilization could have been created overnight. And again, the story of Sword and Shield in not a myth.
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Urn
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| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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But it is the same outcome that has been reached in the past hundreds of times already. He explains that other worlds (from the Million Worlds) just like the Suikoden world have been destroyed by the True Runes in the past.
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I must play Suikoden 3 again because I have no recollection of this being stated. I'm not saying it wasn't said, but that I don't remember it. That would be interesting indeed. But, the fact still remains that it is only one of an infinite possible outcomes that Luc has chosen to see. It is possible that each True Rune shows a different vision. We cannot know that it is truth just because Luc says it is. It is apparent that he has nothing but ill feelings for True Runes.
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The True Wind Rune didn't give Luc his vision so he would try to destroy it. Luc came to that conclusion on his own. He was trying to defy the fate he saw for the world. And it wasn't the True Wind Rune in particular that needed to be destroyed. It was any True Rune. Luc explains that if any True Rune is destroyed then the True Runes cannot destroy all human existence and bring about thier "Order" (Dharma). He chose his rune because it would be easiest and most convenient, and also because he feels he doesn't have much reason to live.
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Does the first two sentences not show that it was Luc's own interpretation that led him to think the True Wind Rune needed to be destroyed as I have stated? You are just reaffirming what I have already stated. And why would it be much easier and convenient for him to destroy his own True Rune? It seems it would have been much easier for him to destroy Leknaat's portion of the Gate Rune as she was obviously too weak to fight against him which she admits to herself.
Even better, why would he not just destroy the Bright Shield and Black Sword Runes when he had the chance? Jowy and Riou were clearly no match for him. He could have even destroyed the Soul Eater, as well. It seems like he went out of his way to destroy his True Wind Rune to me. He had been planning it for several years in fact. Nothing was convenient about the way he went about destroying the True Wind Rune. But, I will agree that he wanted to destroy himself as he didn't have much purpose in his own life. But, I believe he knew what he was attempting to do was impossible, as well. He wanted to take his own life above all else.
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Undeniable? Hardly. The creation of the Suikoden world isn't a myth. It was a real event that happened. Nothing existed in the Suikoden world before it was created (except Darkness of course).
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Try to deny it if you want, but evidence points to it just being a tale. Explain why Sierra's existence. Explain the fact that she wears modern clothes from over 800 years ago. Explain how she came from a town. Explain how this happened if the world came into existence in such a short time before she was born. You can't. Hmm, if I recall correctly, the Bible story of Genesis was is known as a myth, too, but it is simply referred to as a story. It is unarguably nothing more than a myth because it can't proven. Sorry.
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Like I said, the Sindar could have been from another world. They apparently found thier "Eternal City" according to legend, and the Fog Guide from S4 is from a place called the "Eternal City" in the World of Emptiness. The Sindar could possibly be from that realm originally.
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You can say a lot of things, but where is your proof? The fact is that we know they lived in the realm which we have seen and have been around for many many years. Actually, many years before Harmonia existed as Harmonia came after Aronia which even had Sindar presence. We can speculate on where the Sindar come from but I'm looking at facts. And the fact is that they were present in the suikoden Realm we have seen for much longer than the years in which the myth says that the Suikoden World was created. Even Sierra was aware of the Sindar and she is the oldest person we have seen. This is just more proof that 1000 years just doesn't cut it.
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Like I said, the True Runes could have created civilization where there was none. In this case, civilization could have been created overnight. And again, the story of Sword and Shield in not a myth.
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Sure, they could have, but what purpose would clothing the inhabitants do for them? I have yet to see a True Rune display a fashion sense. So, can you explain that to me? Why would the True Runes construct towns? What purpose would that serve for them? I'm just curious because that just doesn't make any sense because I doubt we will see a True Rune of Clothing or a True Rune of Masonry.
The fact is that Sierra had a family as she was obviously human and this obviously implies that she was not the first human. So, again, this 1000 years just doesn't cut it and it isn't sensable to just say "well, the True Runes could have done it" when none of the ones we have seen even seem remotely interested in creating. They certainly seem more interested in conflict, though.
And I already addressed your myth statement.
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Zaj I mean Mike
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| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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First Luc saw the True Wind Runes memoerys because he became one with it. Geddoe saw part of it because he was very compatible with the True Lighting Rune but not one with it so only saw it in flashes.
Luc talks about the other worlds in his story when you are at the Inn in the bug town Le something.
Then about how after just 200 years how were they advanced READ MY FIRST POST :!: I give two possible reasons eighter a True Rune bearer got the info of the old world and trained everyone. Or the more plossible way were the Sindar come spread across the world and revived the lost world then sleep or disapper till the world starts over agian.
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| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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Like I said, I'll have to go back and play Suikoden 3 again to see what Luc and Geddoe said for myself. I read your first post and your reasons seem feasible, but it does is prove that there was something there in this realm before this 1000 years in which the myth says the world was created.
Something was there before the Sindars arrived if what you suggest is true. And that's what I've been stating all along. Who would the Sindar teach if nothing was there in the first place? If the Sindar came from another world, as it seems feasible that they did, then they didn't breed these humans native to the realm we see. It is stated in the myth that the True Runes created the world or the universe but nothing is stated of the inhabitants. It is too easy to just say the Sindars came and did this and that or it is all because of the True Runes. There is just too much inconsistency if you look at things that way.
Everything about the Sindar is considered to be a mystery except for the fact that there leader has the Rune of Change and they were looking for their "Eternal Capital". I think you assume too much with out facts to support it if you keep giving all the credit to the Sindars. They could very well be humans from this realm as well and just so happened to manage to attain more knowledge about the True Runes than the other inhabitants.
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