Normal Runes, and what I think they can tell us...

[Ryusanji]

If this has been discussed before, I apologize for wasting your time. I haven't noticed it anywhere, so if it is, please direct me to it...

First of all... Looking at Suikoden 4, I began to grow curious as to why there were so few runes compared to the other games. I then decided to look into it a bit deeper, and came up with this... My numbers are likely off in a few places, but this is roughly correct.

Not counting the True Runes... Though they do tie into this.

The Total Runes is obvious, it's the total amount of Runes you have access to in each game.

The Specific Runes Part is the amount of Runes that you can only get ina limited number, and ONLY with a specific person.

The New Runes is also pretty obvious, it's the number of Runs that first showed up in each game.

Suikoden 4
S4 Total Runes- 34
S4 Specific Runes- 6

<150 Years>

Suikoden 1
S1 Total Runes- 42 If you count rune pieces... If not, 31.
S1 Specific Runes- 6
S1 New Runes- 13

<3 Years>

Suikoden 2
S2 Total- 84
S2 Specific Runes- 18
S2 New Runes- 47

<15 Years>

Suikoden 3
S3 Total Runes- 66
S3 Specific Runes- 19
S3 New Runes- 21

Now...Runes exist because of the 27 True Runes, correct? As time goes on, and more True Runes are "unlocked", or a better word, unsealed, more and more runes seem to be coming into existence. I'm sure a lot of you have come to this conclusion, it's kind of obvious. Or it could be a complete coincidence.

The game creators could just want to give us new, cheaper versions of the True Runes.


But, I'd prefer to think of it this way...

Suikoden 1: The Soul Eater is unleashed... Ted had it all along, but rarely, if ever, used it... Tir however, had little choice but to use it. With its power now unleashed, within a few years...

Suikoden 2: Darkness Runes have begun to come into existence...

Suikoden 3: Same thing happened as a result of Suikoden 2. The Shield Rune and the Sword Runes popped up as a result of the Bright Shield and Black Sword Runes being unsealed.

As for the True Element Runes, they've been in a "semi-active" state for many, many years, haven't they? Which would explain why the Elemant Runes have been around so long...

This also brings me to a few conclusions as to what some True Runes could be. Remembering that this is all theory, if this is in fact, NOT a coincidence...why would the Resurrection Rune not be in Suikoden 4, but would be in Suikoden 1 and 2? Because it stems from a True Rune that was unleashed/unseald at some point during the 150 year gap ebtween Suikoden 4 and 1.

The same can apply to the Jongleur Rune. I'm sure atleast one of you has read that old S3 fanfic in which Duke challenges Geddoe... with his mighty TRUE JONGLEUR RUNE!!!!
...hopefully not, but still a possibility.

Also... about those Specific Runes...They jump from 6, to 6, to 18, to 19... Now...where the heck did they, and all those other skill increasing runes come from? Perhaps they too are the result of a True Rune being activated, and over time, they began to spread, and seperate, evolving into different kinds of runes, but still mostly based on the same principal, an increased natural fighting ability. I wonder...if such a True Rune existed... I wonder if it could tie into Falena?

And there you have it, I'm all done here. The main purpose of this whole theory was to find some sensible reason for less Runes, other then the game designers suddenly deciding to massively decrease the amount of runes in the game. Thanks for your time, and I look forward to your replies.[/u][/i]

[Blackwind]

I really doubt the rune selection had anything more then the game designer's whim behind it.
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[Axiose]

That's not the point Ryusanji is making.

[Acheron]

Also you must consider that perhaps the runes don't travel well. For instance note how removed the Island Nations are. There are fairly isolated from each other and it seemed as thought they rarely visited other places. That was an inference and by no means relfects game facts. Also note that maybe the kinds of runes around certain area's is just what they have access to. I doubt there is a Rune trade market so most runes would just stay fairly localized. Just a thought

[Kobold]

Yes, and what about the runes that existed 150 years ago but are not 150 years later? Namely those in S4 and not in 123... Or you can call it runes that disappeared... Like slash rune...

Of course, this could allow the point about the runes not migrating to hold true... Those runes are probably unique to the Island Nations or something like that...

But the thing about darkness, sword/shield runes appearing is something people have been talking about. Either way, suikoden 5 or rhapsodia p;robably won't be showing us possibility of a continuation in this pattern since rhapsodia happens before S4, and if S5 is gonna be after S3, the true elemental runes already have lower tiers...
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Kobolds are great!

[Beecham]

So you are saying that within the 150 years, there came to be an 'un'-true rune of Punishment?

[Axiose]

No, he's saying that the Resurection Rune is likely a spawn of the Rune of Punishment.
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[Axiose] [Fliktor]

[Beecham]

That would be impossible. The trend of most "rune spawns" have showbn that the true rune will have the abilities of the element levels 3 though 6, while the normal runes will have the abilities of 1 through 4. Special upgrade runes like Rage and Flowing have abilites 2 through 5. The only exception is the Shield rune. Still, it shares simliar abilities, so that can be excusable. On the other hand, Resurrection runes have completely different spells from the ROP, so it doesn't click.

On a side note, the "sword" runes in Suikoden 3 comes from the old game's equip of rune on weapons and using rune pieces on weapons. There is no relation to the Balck Sword rune in suikoden 2.

[Axiose]

It's not silly to assume that since the Rune of Punishment moved into it's cycle of Forgiveness that it gained different spells while losing the original spells HeroIV used. I think it's stated that the Resurection Rune doesn't come from the Soul Eater, but the forgivness half of the Rune of Punishment would seem quite fitting.
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[Axiose] [Fliktor]

[Beecham]

I think you have mistaken, Axiose. The so-called "forgiveness" stage of the ROP is the part when the ROP stops back firing on the hero. We have seen this. During its forgiveness stage, it certainly has not gained new abiltiies, so it is wrong to say that the Resurrection rune comes from the ROP.

It is also wrong to say that the Resurrection rune comes from the Rune of Life and Death, even if the "life" part does make poetic sense. It is pretty obvious that the Runespawn of the Soul Eater is the Darkness rune, which can be both seen by the Symbol and the spells.

[Axiose]

It's not wrong at all considering that Rune spells are for game mechanic purposes only. You can see this as you said, the Shield Rune doesn't share all the same spells as the Bright Shield Rune.

While the ROP didn't give you any new spells in the game as Konami wouldn't suddenly create 4 new spells for your main rune to be used only at the end of the game, it's no bad to think that the rune changed over time and spawned different runes.

I'm not saying that the Resurrection is definately from the RoP, but you can't use in game spells to prove which runes are spawned from which True Rune.

If the nature of the Rune itself has shifted then it's always possible that it can spawn two different styles of runes. Considering we don't know how runes are spawned you can't say that the RoP doesn't spawn Resurrection runes because the Rune spells don't match up.
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[Axiose] [Fliktor]

[Beecham]

Back to Ryusanji. You mentioned that as the game went on, more runes were unlocked, right? Then how to you explain the fact that the Pale Gate Rune never appeared in suikoden 4 or 1? It is pretty obvious that the True Gate rune has been awoken ages ago by the splitting of the rune to Windy and Leknaat. So how come the Gate rune waited till 2 to appear? It doesn't make sense.

Also, how do you explain the fact that other True Runes don't have spawns? The Soverign Rune, Beast Rune, Night Rune and Blue Moon Rune were obviously runes with attacking capabilities that were released. If your arguement stands, then it is pretty obvious that they should have spawns. So, how come they never appeared?

And also note the number of rune without true runes to spawn from: The Jongleur rune (no, Duke will never defeat Geddoe), the Falcon Rune, Resurrection Rune, the Double BEat etc... Where do they cokme from?

[Urn]

Well, I will try to help give an explanation even though I believe you make a good argument. First, the Gate Rune was not actually seen used until Suikoden 1. So, it makes sense that an incarnation of that rune would appear after Suikoden 1.

As for the Sovereign Rune, Beast Rune, Night Rune and Blue Moon Rune. They all are generally independent True Runes that traditionally have no real bearer. Meaning that they all have isolated themselves from being in direct contact with a human bearer for a number of years. The Sovereign Rune resides in the King Dragon Sword. The Beast Rune resides in L'Renouille castle.

The Night Rune is incarnated in the Zodiac Sword. And Sierra placed the Blue Moon Rune in an alter to help contain the bloodlust of the people she helped change. So, you see, those True Runes are relatively independent from a human user and therefore would not spawn lesser forms of themselves as it would demeaning to them. Well, at least that is the way I see it. I find those 3 True Runes to be of a different class than the others and I think the Circle Rune and the Rune of Change are similar. I would call them the uncontained True Rune sect. The True Runes that can be contained will normally give birth to lower tier of itself, but the uncontained generally don't because they have a higher purpose outside of the natural occurring effects on the Suikoden World such as life, death, wind, water, fire, etc.

As for the other runes you mention, I believe the Jongleur, Falcon and Double Beat are only skill based runes representing a various technique and really have no bearance on the 27 True Runes. They are manmade in my opinion. The Ressurection Rune probably spawns from one of the 27 True Runes, but I can't decide if it's the Rune of Punishment just yet. I do not believe that it is the Rune of Life and Death, though.

I hope this adds a little more clarity.
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[Tou]

Very interesting. I like your style of thought.

[Aesa]

This is all very interesting and very confusing, I will continue to check back here
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