The Kages affiliation to Highland

[Decado]

Whilst thinking of another facet to add to the gleaming jewel which is the Kingdom of Highland I was struck by the realisation that Highland does in fact have it's own organisation of Ninja. For those of you who have forgotten you find this out in Suikoden 3 when [spoiler]Watari and Ayame have their cut scenes and you find out that Watari had left the Kage and Ayame is there to hunt him down.[/spoiler]

Now I'm not too sure if I am remembering this correctly but is the entire Kage organisation/clan affiliated to Highland or was is just one or two individuals? Also can anyone flesh out more of the back story to this or point me in the direction of where I may be able to look a little more into this?
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[Beecham]

Does anyone know for -certain- - and I've asked this before, but no one has satisfactorily answered it for me - if Kage from Suikoden 2 is the same Kage from Suikoden 1? I mean, kage is just another word for Ninja. In Suikoden, we have a clan of ninja known as the Kage. Was Suikoden 2's Kage simply a Kage, or was his name Kage? And either way, since Kage is a title and not a name in general, is Suikoden 1's Kage the same person necessarily? After all, why would a Highlands-affiliated kage be working for the Liberation Army? Really, if the Scarlet Moon Empire was an enemy of Jowston, much like Highlands themselves were, would it not make more sense to help squash the rebellion, letting the Scarlet Moon move against Jowston more easily? A rebellion only kept the Emperor's attention inward instead of to the north.

[John Layfield]

Hmm... does anyone have a transcript, or at least a rough draft from memory of this scene in Suikoden III?
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One day, I shall come back. Yes, we shall all come back. Until then, there must be no regrets, no tears, no anxieties. Just go forward in all your beliefs and prove to me that I am not mistaken in mine.

[Beecham]

[Axiose]

It is possible that Kage (Suikoden I) gave himself that name when he worked solo (around the Gate Rune War times).

After Suikoden I, he traveled and found/trained a few other Ninjas and started his own little organisation named after himself. They began to hire themselves out to the Highland Kingdom and later stuck with them out of money (they don't seem the loyal/honour kind).
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[Axiose] [Fliktor]

[Beecham]

Intriguing theory. So the Kage from Suikoden I is the founder of the Suikoden III kage organization? Well... there's nothing really to contradict it, I don't think. I think Watari and Ayame are both young in Suikoden III, and nothing I know of actually says that the kage are an established group.

[Axiose]

But then, technically, there's nothing to support it either.

Do we know if the name Kage refers to the group, or was it a mistranslation of sorts?
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[Axiose] [Fliktor]

[Beecham]

Another good question. The translators might not have known kage meant ninja, since it actually means "shadow" literally. It's just understood to mean the same thing as ninja or shinobi; it's just another term for it. We already know the translators for Suikoden III were NOT up to the standards of the other games [and this includes the people who translated Joey as Jowy and Gordeau as Gorudo >.<]. Roaring Brotherhood, anyone?

[Axiose]

Roaring Brotherhood? Did I miss that? Is that meant to be Howling Voice Guild?
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[Axiose] [Fliktor]

[Urn]

Well, while it's not good to assume that Kage created his organization, there's also no way to refute that possibility. It is obvious that Kage is a ninja who lived by his own code. It is rather likely that he would establish his own mercenary group of ninjas to carry out various missions outside of the guidance of the ninjas in Rokkaku. The fact that Watari wears an identical attire, which is probably common to all ninjas, also leads me to believe that Kage may be the founder.

As for the Kage Groups association with the Blight Family, I can only theorize that Kage was working for the Blights on his own accord. It would be odd to see the leader of a group carrying out missions. But, that could also lead to the idea that Kage was not the founder of the Kage Ninjas. There's just too much information we're missing to make an actual conclusion.
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~ Humbly walk the path of death

KOOLUK SUPPORTS TINTO MINERS

[Falcon Critical]

While I have always supported the theory of Kage forming the ninja clan that affiliated with the Blights, I do have to say there are a lot of suggestions in that direction.

( I wouldn't call them HIGHLAND ninja, it doesn't seem they're from the country persay, but rather they allied with the Blight family themselves ).

Kage in Suikoden 1. He was essentially neutral to the war, only taking jobs he was paid for, and he wasn't cheap. Once Tir paid him Kage stayed with the Toran army until the war was over. It is entirely possible that the Blight family were his next employers and gave him enough money to support them through the war.

Now this is where it gets more hypothetical. Kage stopped appearing in the game when Jowy left your company, but it would be dangerous to assume that was the last of his involvement in the war.

With 15 years after the Blight family was overthrown before Suikoden 3, perhaps Kage then decided he was getting old and to train more ninja in his guise. From what I remember of Watari/Ayame they mention Highland so it may be safe to assume the ninja village is there someplace, and it is clear Ayame/Watari are not the only students of that school.

Watari for some reason was exiled - and when you employed him for the Grasslands he was like Kage and just demanded contract money for his services. While this is not necessarily any proof he knew the original Kage it shows the same mindset which could be linked to training.

Compared to the other ninja of Suikoden:

Kasumi - Her village is allied with Toran and was burned in the war, she joined on her leaders request.
Fuma - Freelance ninja, joined when he was impressed you could find him in his bright red suit. ( later joined Rokkaku )
Kage - Freelance, Joined for money

Kasumi - Joined on order from Lepant, president of Toran.
Mondo - Joined on order of Hanzo
Sasuke - Joined on order of Hanzo

Watari - Freelance, Joined for money
Ayame - Joined to follow Watari

Mizuki - Joined when defeated, was join or death situation.
Akaghi - As above


So it's not concrete evidence, a lot of mercenaries ( freelance ninja among them ) ask for little more than money for their loyalty. In Suikoden terms however this may not be so common.

Things we need to prove/disprove some of these theories:
Kage's ending in GS1 ( did he go to highland? )
Ayame/Watari's conversation in GS2
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[Sophita]

Kate's ending rather unhelpfully says: "Saying his contract was up, he disappears." Very vague, and no clear idea where he was going except that we can rule out the idea that he stayed in Toran and helped set up the Toran Republic's government. That's about the extent to which the ending is helpful however. :/

I do think however, that while it cannot be proven in either direction, I think it is likely that the Kage in Suikoden II is the same person - or from the same organization of ninjas, at least - as the Kage in Suikoden I, and is in a similar organization as Watari and Ayame in Suikoden III.

1) They're all merc ninjas and that seems relatively unique. All the other ninjas seem more concerned with staying out of things and living the ninja life. Those that are in the outer world who don't ask for money - Kasumi, Mizuki, Akagi, and Kate - do so in response to their home being damaged. (Gone,I think, in terms of the Suikoden IV ninjas.) Mondo and Sasuke don't count (IMO) since Hanzo ordered them to go. Kage, Ayame, and Watarai seem much more mercenary - Watari and Kage want the money, honey, and Ayame is only there because Watari is her quarry. There's a remarked idealogical split between the two groups, which leads me to think they aren't compatable. (Ie, you don't see this mercenary-style behavior in Rokaku.)

2) They have similar culture. Kage famously says a ninja "Wastes no words" and indeed, Watari and Ayume certainly seem to follow that. Not that Hanzo and the Rokkaku ninjas exactly bubble over with information, but still, they are nowhere near as silent as Watari, Ayame, and Kage are. They also dress similarly, and I think their weapondry is similar as well. (But my memory is admittedly spotty on that last one).

I also think it's very likely the Kage in Suikoden II is the same as the Kage in Suikoden I because...well, the idea of ther ebeing another guy with the same way of talking, with the same clothing, and the same name, while possible, just doesn't strike me as likely. I think I'd be more inclined to think of him being a different Kage if there weren't other Suikoden I stars who had cameos in Suikoden II without portraits, but I know at least Marie, Sarah, and Cleo didn't have a portrait either, so it's not like Kage is the only re-appearing star sans portrait.
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[Decado]

I must admit I had always assumed that Kage from Suikoden 1 was the same Kage as in Suikoden 2 and that he played a major role in establishing 'The Kage' in Suikoden 3, not though there is much information to actually substantiate this. It never occured to me that it could just be a translation snarl up.

Does anyone know if there is any more information available in any of the mangas etc...? I'm sure that something like this should at least have a few more references available.

[edit] Why don't I just look here first?

[Axiose]

It also probably explains that Kage from Suikoden I probably did not start the organisation but looked for work outside of Highland.

The reason Kage probably went looking for work was because at the time of Suikoden I, very little was happening work wise in Highland - there was no wars at that moment and only South Window was invading Moravia at that moment, so work was probably a little slow for them.
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[Axiose] [Fliktor]