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| Is Rap/Hip-Hop Good Music? |
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Tony Stark
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 Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 12:14 am Post subject: Rap and Hip-Hop, Yea or Nay? |
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I was having an argument with a friend earlier about Rap and Hip-Hop. I was curious what this board thinks about it. I'll include my rant about it, because I get so mad I need to vent.
<Rant>
I love rap, but mainly because of the poetry involved. Also, I refuse to listen to most rap if it has little to no poetry involved. And anyone who says it isn't hard to write good poetry is full of it. I don't care who you are.
Rap, which is short for the word Rhapsody, is poetry if you took the beat of the words and turn it to drums. Current rap has taken that up a few notches, and reversed it, but still with the same intent.
Don't insult what you don't know, insult the hip-hop scene if you want and many of the artists, but when you insult all rap you're insulting poetry too. You're insulting Moliere, Shakespeare, Christopher Fry, Sophocles, Robert Frost, Alexander Pope and Yeats. Part of rap is what those authors have done with words, simply updated.
Cannibal Ox, Atmosphere, Sage Francis, Saul Williams and Illogic and MF Doom are some pretty good underground artists. Atmosphere especially. And Immortal Technique is okay if you like politically crazy rap.
Some mainstream can be good. IE, the Wu-Tang Clan (Most of the time), Ice Cube (sometimes), Mos Def, Kanye West and many others.
As for those who don't call Rap/Hip-Hop music, you're barking up the wrong tree. Music isn't a noble title. Musis is only a combination of sound and silence, nothing more. When you talk you create music.
I don't mind when people don't like Rap and Hip-Hop, but hating it, or saying it isn't music without valid reasons isn't cool.
</Rant>
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Wataru
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 1:10 am Post subject: |
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I like the IDEA of rap, as it can be a powerful forum for expression. It can be raw emotive energy in one of its purest forms, but my biggest problem with it is the same probelm I have with most mainstream media. When rap has something to say, when there is real feeling and emotion and passion behind it it can be powerful music and a sublime form of art. But what I see too often is people becoming awash in corporate drivel music. I don't want to hear about "da club" or all the money, women and liquor you have. It's vacuous and stale. I want to hear stuff like the old NWA where there was a message and a meaning. You felt like you were listening to something important then. The same goes for Public Enemy. When I was in college I took a course called "Women and Minorities in the Media" and the music of Public Enemy was one of the things discussed in class. When I saw the video for "Get Outta Dodge," it made me angry. The music and the imagery and the poetry made me FEEL something. And that is truly great poetry indeed.
True rap is a wonderful thing. Mediochre rap (and really, mediochre anything for that matter) is where I tune out. But even if the rap is bad I still have to (begrudgingly) give a little bit of credit to the artist as they're doing something I could never do.
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Tony Stark
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 1:23 am Post subject: |
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I couldn't have put it better myself. Good job, wataru.
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Vextor
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 1:33 am Post subject: |
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| I love rap/hip-hop. It's a great genre. I also listen to classical music. |
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Sophita
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 1:39 am Post subject: |
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Yes and no. Like all music, rap and hip-hop (WHICH ARE NOT THE SAME THING! Hip-Hop is a subgenre is rap) has some music that is INSANELY good. And then it has some music that is INSANELY crappy. There is no style of music that is completely worthless - and to write off an entire genre as worthless severly limits the music you listen to.
Somewhat hypocritically, though, I think a lot of the rap released today is mediocre. I resent that the gansta rap genre is the only subgenre of rap allowed to exist in the mainstream. If I see one more rapper talking about how hard to live in a ghetto (when he lives in a mansion in a town I probably couldn't afford to buy a newspaper in) while he's sipping Cristal and bouncing along in a car I couldn't afford if I sold my soul with some girl who's got more plastic in her than tupperware...It's annoying. Rap music has great potential because it is POWERFUL music, but so much of modern rap has lost the way, and gets out no message but a bland ganster macho falsehood. I'm sick of it. I just wish other people were interested in hearing more than one message, too.
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Tron Bonne
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 2:16 am Post subject: Re: Rap and Hip-Hop, Yea or Nay? |
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| Brect0 wrote: |
Don't insult what you don't know, insult the hip-hop scene if you want and many of the artists, but when you insult all rap you're insulting poetry too. You're insulting Moliere, Shakespeare, Christopher Fry, Sophocles, Robert Frost, Alexander Pope and Yeats. Part of rap is what those authors have done with words, simply updated.
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so are you saying that Shakespeare, Moliere and the others set the foundation for rap? and please understand, the following is insulting the hip-hop scene, as you suggested.
Rap music is not my cup of tea, but I don't hate it. What I hate is the lyrics and the idiots who like to sing about how many women they have, and their bling bling, and whatnot.
You compared the lyrics of rap to the works of Shakespeare. and while I agree that lyrics can be seen as poetry, I don't believe that the lyrics in rap
are as beautiful as Shakespeare's works. "Gansta's Paridise" (only rap song I could think of) can't hold a candle to "Romeo and Juliet" or "A midnight summer' dream". And don't say that it wasn't meant to compete with Shakespeare. That's obvious. The point i'm trying to make is that Shakespeare made poetry to express a feeling, an emotion he had. Most of the popular rap artists are in it just for "Bling", and their songs are evidence of this. That is why rap suffers as a medium. Their hearts are not in it.
Like you said, rap is poetry. Hopefully the poets will start making more meaningful statements than "I busted a cap in that cracker, yo."
For the sake of those who enjoy rap, I hope it evolves into somthing with deep content, and not sex, women and money.
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Acheron
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 2:34 am Post subject: |
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You compared the lyrics of rap to the works of Shakespeare. and while I agree that lyrics can be seen as poetry, I don't believe that the lyrics in rap
are as beautiful as Shakespeare's works. "Gansta's Paridise" (only rap song I could think of) can't hold a candle to "Romeo and Juliet" or "A midnight summer' dream". And don't say that it wasn't meant to compete with Shakespeare. That's obvious. The point i'm trying to make is that Shakespeare made poetry to express a feeling, an emotion he had. Most of the popular rap artists are in it just for "Bling", and their songs are evidence of this. That is why rap suffers as a medium. Their hearts are not in it.
Like you said, rap is poetry. Hopefully the poets will start making more meaningful statements than "I busted a cap in that cracker, yo."
For the sake of those who enjoy rap, I hope it evolves into somthing with deep content, and not sex, women and money.
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I do this all the time but it seems that you're generalizing. Many rappers actually do speak eloquently and don't focus in on the fact that they were impoverished in the hood and that they busted a cap in dat @$$. Mainstream rap is quite shallow and not much more than catchy but when you get into the real stuff its really good and can be as good poetry as many modern poets. I recommend Def Poetry Jam. It really shows how this rap is less aimless ryhmes and more like urban poetry, the incarnation of poetry in the modern world. At least it's supposed to be.
I like rappers like Outkast who actually have a gift to be able to rap like that. Tupac had lyrics at times that were really hard hitting. They painted pictures with their vivid imagery and such. I'm no expert on rap but just blowing it off based on what you see in the spot light is misjudging what it is completly. It would be like characterizing all rock and roll as hip gyrating guitar music, based on Elvis. It's not. It's so much more thats underground and not given the chance to show people the actual quality of it. |
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Tron Bonne
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 2:45 am Post subject: |
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| Acheron88 wrote: |
I do this all the time but it seems that you're generalizing. Many rappers actually do speak eloquently and don't focus in on the fact that they were impoverished in the hood and that they busted a cap in dat @$$. Mainstream rap is quite shallow and not much more than catchy but when you get into the real stuff its really good and can be as good poetry as many modern poets. I recommend Def Poetry Jam. It really shows how this rap is less aimless ryhmes and more like urban poetry, the incarnation of poetry in the modern world. At least it's supposed to be.
I like rappers like Outkast who actually have a gift to be able to rap like that. Tupac had lyrics at times that were really hard hitting. They painted pictures with their vivid imagery and such. I'm no expert on rap but just blowing it off based on what you see in the spot light is misjudging what it is completly. It would be like characterizing all rock and roll as hip gyrating guitar music, based on Elvis. It's not. It's so much more thats underground and not given the chance to show people the actual quality of it. |
well, to be fair, I was generalizing. I know nothing of the artists or their music. My post was based off of atists that are currently in the Limelight. Like this coolio fellow i've heard so much of.
I can't make a judgement on these Def Poetry Jam guys or underground rap artists. so i won't.
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Elc
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:14 am Post subject: |
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I cannot stand rap! (can't say conclusively about hip-hop, since I'm not sure what exactly is classified "hip-hop") I'm forced to listen to it all day, every day at work and it often makes me wish I was deaf so I wouldn't have to suffer through it any longer. I'll take you guys on your words when you say there are some good examples of that... music, but the station which is prevalent at work overplays the absolute ['i]worst[/i] the world has to offer and there is no escape.
Did I mention that I can hear all the crap even through the earplugs I wear?
It wouldn't be all that bad if there was a break from it, but it's been at least a year and a half of that constant garbage. It doesn't help that I've been subjected to that sewege known as "Goodies" on countless occassions and would love nothing more than take a sledgehammer to any radio I hear it playing on. The sad part is, I'd gladly take soft rock over it any day. (and my previous job played nothing but overplayed soft rock and it
nearly
drove me insane!)
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Tron Bonne
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:31 am Post subject: |
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| Jeremy wrote: |
I'd gladly take soft rock over it any day. (and my previous job played nothing but overplayed soft rock and it
nearly
drove me insane!) |
naw, I can't stand soft rock. It makes me physically ill.
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Justice Johnny
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:11 am Post subject: |
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Rap = you have to weed out the good from the bad to really appreciate it.
Hip hop = I don't think I can bring myself to do what I just typed above.
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Tony Stark
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 6:40 am Post subject: Re: Rap and Hip-Hop, Yea or Nay? |
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| The badguy from Tron wrote: |
so are you saying that Shakespeare, Moliere and the others set the foundation for rap? and please understand, the following is insulting the hip-hop scene, as you suggested.
You compared the lyrics of rap to the works of Shakespeare. and while I agree that lyrics can be seen as poetry, I don't believe that the lyrics in rap
are as beautiful as Shakespeare's works. "Gansta's Paridise" (only rap song I could think of) can't hold a candle to "Romeo and Juliet" or "A midnight summer' dream". And don't say that it wasn't meant to compete with Shakespeare. That's obvious. The point i'm trying to make is that Shakespeare made poetry to express a feeling, an emotion he had. Most of the popular rap artists are in it just for "Bling", and their songs are evidence of this. That is why rap suffers as a medium. Their hearts are not in it.
Like you said, rap is poetry. Hopefully the poets will start making more meaningful statements than "I busted a cap in that cracker, yo."
For the sake of those who enjoy rap, I hope it evolves into somthing with deep content, and not sex, women and money. |
You're being quite selective with rap without giving all other poetry the same concession. I'll give you that a lot of, hell even most rap isn't, in any way, good or even poetry. Shakespeare was the pinnacle of beauty in his time period as they spoke English. As time goes on and on, my idea is that English dies more and more to more instantaneous communication. The ideas, however, do not suffer as the words do. The same ideas are expressed as in Shakespeare's works.
Romeo and Juliet was a play about sex. Hell, Shakespeare wasn't famous until he wrote a play involving cannibalism. His characters speak of things like in the lyrics of rap. Shakespeare references things like rape, murder and the like about as much as rappers do. Rap songs speak of incest and murder of your own children, so does the play Oedipus by Sophocles. People often wonder why we haven't had a person like Shakespeare around since he lived, those people look in the wrong places.
Older poetry is the foundation for Rap and Hip-Hop, like I pointed out before. That doesn't mean one is more beautiful than the other. They're from different time periods thus they're going to be invariably different. Look between the artists who only talks about hos and find ones who "get real" as they say. Metaphors, I find, are relative only to the time period and the greatest revealed hate of said time period.
Anyway, I don't know what I'm typing anymore so I should just quit.
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St. Ajora
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:33 am Post subject: |
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You're being quite selective with rap without giving all other poetry the same concession. I'll give you that a lot of, hell even most rap isn't, in any way, good or even poetry. Shakespeare was the pinnacle of beauty in his time period as they spoke English. As time goes on and on, my idea is that English dies more and more to more instantaneous communication. The ideas, however, do not suffer as the words do. The same ideas are expressed as in Shakespeare's works.
Romeo and Juliet was a play about sex. Hell, Shakespeare wasn't famous until he wrote a play involving cannibalism. His characters speak of things like in the lyrics of rap. Shakespeare references things like rape, murder and the like about as much as rappers do. Rap songs speak of incest and murder of your own children, so does the play Oedipus by Sophocles. People often wonder why we haven't had a person like Shakespeare around since he lived, those people look in the wrong places |
The difference is though, many rap "artists" choose to glorify rape and incest and bitches and hoes. Shakespeare didn't do that, and to my knowledge, which included 4 years of studying Shakespeare in j. high and high school, Romeo and Juliet wasn't a play about sex. Sure there was sex in it, but to merely reduce it to content that is on par with modern rap, is just rotten. There is a difference between writing a play and poetry for adults that is ripe with dark and disgusting topics and then writing a song that is ripe with dark and disgusting topics and getting your video aired on MTV. Now everyone loved that sort of stuff too, back in the day, but it was more...poetic and artistic and horrified people to the point where they wanted to touch upon more. Nowadays we can listen to a song about Marshall killing his wife or raping his mother and just shrug our shoulders. |
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Tony Stark
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:56 am Post subject: |
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| St. Ajora wrote: |
| The difference is though, many rap "artists" choose to glorify rape and incest and bitches and hoes. Shakespeare didn't do that, and to my knowledge, which included 4 years of studying Shakespeare in j. high and high school, Romeo and Juliet wasn't a play about sex. Sure there was sex in it, but to merely reduce it to content that is on par with modern rap, is just rotten. There is a difference between writing a play and poetry for adults that is ripe with dark and disgusting topics and then writing a song that is ripe with dark and disgusting topics and getting your video aired on MTV. Now everyone loved that sort of stuff too, back in the day, but it was more...poetic and artistic and horrified people to the point where they wanted to touch upon more. Nowadays we can listen to a song about Marshall killing his wife or raping his mother and just shrug our shoulders. |
Romeo and Juliet was about the lust between the two characters Romeo and Juliet, not love. Read between the lines. There, of course, was more to the play, but the main theme of the play was lust. I'm quite fond of Shakespeare, and I've read a good deal of his plays and studied him quite a bit. Romeo and Juliet was a play about sex, but the moral of the play is about propriety. (IE, the Capulets and Montagues) Themes and moral are quite different ideas.
But I'm veering off course. Allow me to point out that Shakespeare was a playwright and rappers are poets. A poet hits you with a sudden shock, a playrwright, if good, has character development and eventually through getting you to feel for a character they make you regret the act. Poetry is usually to speak out about a current injustice, but has to use different means to get to the point. Not to mention you're still being very selective of rap and hip-hop. Still seeing only the men and women of MTV and not the true meaing of the movement.
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gari
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 8:32 am Post subject: |
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Crazy talk man I don't care how long you studied goddamn shakespear he didn't set the foundation for rap, hell no! Rap is saying the words in rythm with the beat (a.k.a the flow) and no way shakespear even thought of that. Rap is telling your story to the world, and it happens that most rappers' story is bitches and money and drugs, and being very dumb. But some rappers haven't raped the TRUE rap, where it all began with ('Sugar HIll Gang anyone?) and try to give something to the world. Some rappers I like are Talib Kweli and Nas. And some braggin n boostin songs sometimes are also cool, like Jay Z.
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