WANTED: Female Villain in Suikoden IV [minor spoilers]

[Starslasher]

We have all spoke about things that were missing in Suikoden IV. For one, We all like having six people in out team, not four. Two, we like having more than 60 fighting characters (Suikoden had like 54 or 55. The rest were support characters, did services on the ship, or did absolutely nothing!). And we all like having a Star of Destiny that dies (looking at Gremio, Mathiu, Kiba, Jimba and Yun).

But do you know what else Suikoden IV lacked? A Female Villain! Think about it: Suikoden I had Windy, Suikoden II had Lucia and Suikoden III had Sarah. But who does Suikoden IV have? Little Daisy? I think not! Katarina could be the closest thing to being Suikoden IV's female villain. Or Selma ("Love me, Love McGyver." :lol: ).

But tell me what you guys think about that.

EDIT: I misspelled Sarah as Saraj. oopsie!
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Guardian of Greenhill & Devoted Protector of Oulan



Bork! Bork! Bork!

[Azn Shado99]

I think that it a good a idea to go back to having central female villians in future Suikoden games.

[Ninjar]

Hmmm...I don't know that the reason that Suikoden wasn't a widely as accepted was due to the lack of a female villian, but I certainly would say that it was missing in the sense that the game could have done better with one.

If she were used properly, that is.

[Starslasher]

[Sophita]

I don't think the problem was the sex of the villian so much as a lack of motivation. The main villians of the other Suikodens - Barbarossa/Windy, Jowy/Luca, and Luc/Sarah...You understood their motivations. We know why Windy wanted the Soul Eater, how she got into Barbarossa's favor, where she came from, etc. We knew why Sarah followed Luc. We knew why Luca so crazy. Why Lucia attempted to murder Riou. Why Yuber is ...Yuber.

We know almost nothing about Graham Cray, in comparison. We know he was a student of Elenors, and that thery fell out - somehow, presumably to do with whatever got him barred from the Scaret Moon Empire - but this is a guess, for all I know he put mustard on her sandwhich when she specifcally asked for ketchup. And that's the problem, really - we don't know anything about Graham, really. He remains an enigma for most of the game, and in the end, he even mocks the audience by refusing to give them answers. Why are his eyes like that? How did he become such a dominant trader? Why is he working with Kooluk? When did his attentions turn towards Hero IV and his rune? What does Cray want the rune for? What kind of trading company does he run? What is the business of his relationship with Elenor? Why did he cut his arm off? Did he know the rune transferred to his son before he used it? Why hasn't he been spending all this time tracking the rune if he wants it so bad? And so on, and so forth...

A strong story needs a strong villian. Cray is not that villian, and in the end, the audience is left with a feeling of exasperation and a pity that we will never really get to know him.
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John Layfield wrote:

But bubbles... children love bubbles! XD

[Ninjar]

Of course we have to remember that we know almost nothing about everyone in the entire game. So compared to what has been found out of everyone else we know a substantial amount about Cray which sadly is almost nothing.

I must say, as many other people have said before me, that Suikoden IV did not do much in the area of character motivation. I'm sure that we'll hear it again too.

[Shrew]

I don't think Cray's problem is so much that we know nothing about him, but that he's very distant for most of the game. Sure, he shows up in cutscenes, but only as that "cool looking dude", and he never has involvement with the characters.

Windy established herself immediately, and when she wasn't there the Imperial Generals played the role of threatening villains. Luca was there even faster, and was even more of a major threat throughout the game. Luca was constantly in your face, and constantly insane. Suikoden III's destroyers were ubiquitous and kept you guessing as to their motives.

Graham Cray was just a shadowy figure. He was never an active threat until he attacked Ramada, a character who uhh... really didn't do much. He's only interesting when you discover that he's Eleanor's pupil. And in your final fight you do gain some interesting info, but it's all too little too late. There is no build-up with Graham Cray, just big loud cymbal crash and a fade away.

Troy's a much better fit for the villain we know nothing about. He's the opposite of Cray. Always in your face, but you never learn about him. It's all "oooooh, he's awesome", "he'll beat you up hard", "he's so sexy", "he's the child of the sea god!" I just want to know why damnit, why?
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Fear our Vagueness.

[John Layfield]

Ah, Q&A, I love it.

Why are his eyes like that?

Unknown, I'll admit. Probably just has freaky albino eyes, spooky. In fact, that's the most likely explanation come to think of it. After all, I have no idea why Neclord has red eyes.

How did he become such a dominant trader?

The same way Shu did in Suikoden II. Graham Cray is a good strategist as was Shu, neither are excellent but they're both handy to have around. In that sense, Shu and Cray are similar enough to pull off the same job, namely trading, well. Examining economics and strategy is supposed to be similar in the Suikoden world, and it works out well for these two Silverberg trained strategists.

Why is he working with Kooluk?

Because he needs to work for someone. Despite his power, Graham Cray is not a god. His name is known throughout Scarlet Moon and elsewhere as a pretty good strategist and Kooluk, as a nation in decline, need every bit of help they can get.

Also, of course, this is because he's hunting for the Rune of Punishment which is in the very region Kooluk are trying to conquer. Note how he manipulates regional policy from southern expansion to solely searching for the True Rune under the pretence of handing it to Harmonia.

When did his attentions turn towards Hero IV and his rune?

When he realised Tenkai IV had the rune. His goal was always the rune, his attentions only turned to the new Tenkai when he discovered from Snowe that he had the rune.

What does Cray want the rune for?

He's insane due to the death of son which he blames himself for. He also wants to relive the memories of his lost son, whos soul is 'trapped' within the rune. In Graham Cray's twisted mind, having the ghost of his son trapped with him is better than simply being dead.

What kind of trading company does he run?

Cray Trading Company (and it's front: Orark Maritine Trade) trade officially in spices for the most part which do make a tidy profit due to their popularity in the Island Nations. On the less legal side of things they also capture and sell mermaids as well as doing transportation work for the Kooluk military.

What is the business of his relationship with Elenor?

We don't know the specifics. Of course, Graham Cray outright refuses to tell us them so this is a deliberate ploy of Konami. We know that when Elenor Silverberg was the Scarlet Moon strategist, Graham Cray was her second much as Agnes is in Suikoden IV. At some point he gained the Rune of Punishment, after the whole rune killing incident happened and Cray went muy loco, Elenor, who apparantly cared of Cray a lot, became an alcoholic, got fired and wanted nothing to do with the outside world.

Why did he cut his arm off?

He couldn't handle the visions being projected into his brain by the Rune of Punishment. The games dialouge suggests that the visions Graham Cray had to relive were a lot worse that Tenkai IV's boring-ass visions. Reliving the painful deaths of prior bearers of the rune over and over and being caused horrible agony everytime you use the runes power at all will do that to you.

Did he know the rune transferred to his son before he used it?

Who? Cray or his son? When the visions of the rune got too much for Cray he cut off his arm rather than continue suffering. It is assumed, but not confirmed, that he thought that by doing this, the Rune would be 'trapped' in his severed arm and that would be that. However, after Cray severed his arm, the Rune simply left it and hopped into Graham Cray's son. Not wishing to, say, hack off his own son's arm, Cray did his best to keep the Rune under control and trained his son in suppressing its power. However, once the Scarlet Moon nobles attacked the village bordering Kooluk, where Cray lived, his son used the Rune out of anger to destroy the nobles and promptly died.

Why hasn't he been spending all this time tracking the rune if he wants it so bad?

He has. When Cray's son died, the Rune didn't hop to the nearest person like last time. (It could argued that because Cray didn't die the last time, the Rune couldn't leave too far, perhaps fueled by death or somesuch nonsense. The other theory would be that the Rune jumped to Cray's son out of spite for Cray trying to escape the Rune.) Instead it done what most Runes seem to do, it flew away and hid itself until being discovered again by some unfortunate bearer. As the rune resurfaced, in fact, within the Island Nations and seemingly confined its bearers to that region, I doubt it's a coincidence that Cray Trading Company and Graham Cray operate from El Eal, the one region of Kooluk that regulary enters Island Nations territory.

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EDIT

Oh, right, there's another topic beside Bash Graham Cray.

Anyway, I see no reason why Suikoden IV needed a female villian. To keep the tradition alive? Or just because if you don't have a female counterpart to every male in the game it's suddenly sexist?

Troy and Colton played the "Local Evil" or what is really the "Enemies by Outside Influence" faction. Just as Scarlet Moon was in Suikoden I, Highland in Suikoden II and, I suppose, Harmonia in Suikoden III.

Meanwhile, Graham Cray plays the part of the "Higher Power" or the "Great Manipulator" the person who manipulates everything into place for his own plans while his peons continue oblivious to the greater plan. This role was played by Windy in Suikoden I, Luca and later Leon in Suikoden II and Luc in Suikoden III.

Would having a female villian have added anything? If we gave Graham Cray a sex-change and renamed him Mary Cray would the game have been better? I highly doubt it.
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One day, I shall come back. Yes, we shall all come back. Until then, there must be no regrets, no tears, no anxieties. Just go forward in all your beliefs and prove to me that I am not mistaken in mine.

[kuwaizair]

wow, well done John. bravo. thats a great character explantion. I love the ending...Mary Cray...thats great.

anway do we really need a she-villann? I know the other girls had reasons and where there, maybe it dosn't matter. We had a she-Pirate....thats good enough isn't it?(well some finalfantasies had she-pirates too but that dosen't matter does it)
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few runes short of a set of 27

[Admiral Ackbar]

The real problem is that you don't actually meet Cray until the end of the game.

Just like Troy and Colton...you meet them once when you hitch a ride on thier ship, then the next time you meet Colton you whoop his butt and imprison him. The next time you meet Troy you whoop his butt in a naval battle, duel him, then he dies.

The Governer doesn't do anything at all, really.

Suikoden 4 is mainly villainless. The villains don't even do much behind the scenes even. The only time you truly see them is in a "meanwhile, at the evil villain headquarters..." scene. But it doesn't make sense to have so many of those scenes and yet no interaction with the villains.

It eventually feels like the beginning of an episode of Aqua Teen Hunger Force. You are shown a scene of an evil villain before each episode doing some kind of experiment, but he never actually appears in the main story.

Thats what the villains of Suikoden 4 feel like. It's like the game has no villains, but every now and then you're forced to watch a scene involving some characters (villains) that you never ever meet or interact with until you kill/defeat them. There's no build-up to meeting them. There are no rivalries. There are no "I'll get you next time" events. There are no grudges to be had.
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[Krawnik]

Female villains, eh? That's your big gripe about Suikoden IV? If it's a matter of sexism, you could take into account that for the first time your primary strategist is a woman, even if she is entirely unnescesary and a useless drunk anyway. The only character in the game with any balls is ironically enough a woman- Kika. Even if she's got the personality of a cardboard box, she's the only character who's got that whole "just get shit done" attitude. Flik in Suikode I, Shu in Suikoden II, Geddoe in Suikoden III, and now Kika. Everyone else in S4 wasn't nearly as badass as Kika.

Do you just want a female villain because... there has been before? I mean, Lucia in S2 wasn't even really a villain (which is a point I'll return too), she was just a hired gun. Sarah, while an antagonist, wasn't particularly evil either, she was just dedicated to Luc's cause. Windy was the only legitimate female "villain" in the entire series. Ruthless, evil, egocentric, manipulative, and very powerful. Suikoden I was always a battle between the bearer of the Soul Eater and Windy, with the Liberation of Toran being the field on which that battle was fought. Similarly, in Suikoden II, the battle between the bearers of the Bright Shield and Black Sword was the real conflict, with the Jowston-Highland war being a front for that battle. In Suikoden III, the front was a battle between Zexen/Grasslands and Harmonia, when really it was all about the Flame Champion and the True Wind Rune bearer fighting for the ability to control Destiny. Suikoden IV, rather than lacking a female villain, just lacked that real villain that all it's predecessors had. Hero4 had qualms with Snowe, sure, but Snowe is a nobody. He's a petty, traitorous scarecrow with no values and no will. As such, Hero4 effortlessly overcomes this adversary at every oppurtunity. Troy comes closest to fulfilling the role of Windy and Luc, being the character established as being incredibly powerfulfrom the beginning, but even he falls short. He is rarely encountered in combat, and his defeat under the hero is very anticlimactic. Cray is up there as the villain who has a personal vendetta with the hero, but he lacks the trait that Troy possesses, power. Cray is a merchant, he isn't a warrior. And while he used to be a strategist, that sets him up perfectly to fill the old role of Leon Silverberg, not the main bloody villain. Cray can't be Luca Blight, he can't be Windy, he can't be Jowy, and he certainly can't be Luc. The real main villain of the series has to be personally connected to the hero (Windy-Ted/McDohl/Soul Eater in general, Jowy/Riou, Luc/True Wind Rune/Flame Champion/True Fire Rune), has to be incredibly powerful, and has to have an important background. Cray is much better suited to a strategist role, his antagonism and history with Elenor set him up to be more of a Leon or Albert character, the way those two antagonized with Shu and Caesar. Cray just isn't strong enough, and his connection to the Rune of Punishment and Hero4 is too ambiguous for him to be an effective villain.

Sorry if my thought are a little disorganized, but I had to rush through this post to get ready for my prom in an hour and a half. o_O
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[Ninjar]

Although it is possible that you could argue that both Suikoden IV's hero and Cray are connected through their ownership of the Rune of Punishment.

I must agree that choosing a character that acts as a strategist as the main villian seems pointless. Also, what the hell was up with the tree you had to fight at the end of the game. What the hell did that have to do with anything else in the entire game?

[John Layfield]

The giant tree... thing powered the giant rune cannon at El Eal. The same rune cannon that Orark Maritime Trade (the front for Cray Trading Company) were delivering that giant cannon ammo to when Brandeau attacked you way back when.

It is a bit shoehorned in, admittedly, but that's no fault on Graham Cray's part. The idea of having a strategist as an enemy is that he simply isn't a psycho hatchetman, he's an insane person but one who can out manuver you with skill and tactics.

EDIT

I can see the flaws in Suikoden IV but I can also see what the developers were trying to get at and scratch below the surface to see the true complexity of the game that simply isn't articulated very well through the in-game narative which is weak for the most part.
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One day, I shall come back. Yes, we shall all come back. Until then, there must be no regrets, no tears, no anxieties. Just go forward in all your beliefs and prove to me that I am not mistaken in mine.

[Ninjar]

Ahh...So that's what it was. Thanks for the information. I always wondered where the tree came from. ^_^

[Acheron]

I suppose if you really wanted a female to fight against you could say Kika. For the begining of the game you fight against Dario, who is an underling of Kika. You can tell that Kika is powerful by the way she is talked about and she looks majorly bad-a**. I was thinking that she would be my enemy in the begining besides Kooluk. Than I got into conflict with Troy and Colton. I thought that they were definently the main villians in this whole affair. When that didn't pan out I assumed it was Cray's turn.

Was that a head thing around Cray's forhead? I thought it was a scar but that may have been my disillusioned perception of it. I also thought that Cray had something to do with the man-slaughtering thing that happened in Kooluk that you read about in the library. The formal name escapes my recollection presently. Is it possible for Cray to somehow end up has Yuber? I mean maybe the falling rubble didn't kill him but gave him amnesia. All that stayed with him was the memories from the rune, causing him to go inside and bent on causing chaos in the world. He could change his name to Yuber than from lacking his original name. He also could have had a True Rune the whole time, which somehow caused him to seek other True Runes, Yuber seems to always find True Runes everywhere he turns. He's practicially swimming in them. Some one with more Yuber knowledge than I can come in and check my facts out.