A new theory regarding the Crowley and Mazus timeline.

[Exile]

I don't know it's appeared in basically all the suikodens so far that's not similar that's the same setting. The Night rune transported people through time and Viki does it each time she turns up. I'm not saying the idea they travelled time is right, I prefer the reincarnation idea since it fits Crowley and Mazus' aim to defeat the need of having a true rune, a form of agelessness. But this time travelling is a possibility and I think that's all qenacu is trying to point out.
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[Deleted User 1]

Here is the problem with reincarnation.

Well, chances are they would have had different bodies if their souls relocated, wouldn't you agree. So, if they did reicarnate, for all we know Mazus or Crowley could have been anyone in a former life. They could have been Graham Cray or Lino en Kuldes or a simple farmer for all that we know. Who knows how long they have lived, and how many bodies they have had. This story just gets messy.

When I look at the time line, the way I see it, is that the Crowley & Mazus that died first, is the same person/body/soul that was born later. Not the same soul with a different body/person. That is why time travel makes more sense to me. If they are the same people(bodies) I would support time travel. If they are the same souls, but different bodies, then I would support reincarnation. I never have known anyone to reincarnate in suikoden but plenty of folks time travel. Of course that doesn't make reincarnation impossible, but I don't see why the idea of time travel is ridiculous.

By the way, on a side note, I was looking at a couple of the posts, and it seems that some of you think I'm saying that they had the power to time travel all along, and choose to time travel for whatever reason to fight on this mountain. I never said this, so if this is what you may be thinking, it's not what I'm saying.

[Aurelien]

The idea of time travel for Crowley and Mazus. Hmmmm.. I'm not saying that it's impossible for the two of them to time travel, but I don't find time travelling to fit them considering that they have no reason why they wanted to time travel, when they time travel, how they time travel, and so on. You said that all those are unimportant, but I disagree. When you make a theory, you must have a good explanation on why this and that are so and so. You can't just say that they time travel, but not caring about the other things. While it is possible that they time travel, your theory doesn't have any supporting ideas that say that they time travelled at all.

[Deleted User 1]

I have seen similar questions asking the same thing. "Why would they travel back in time?" I hope that what you are about to read will clear up any thoughts, questions, or concerns.

I am not claiming that I know why they time travelled. I have no idea. I'm clueless. I have no explanation as to why. None whatsoever. Nothing, nada, zip, zilch, zero, naught, nil, zippo, zot, zipperony, so on and so forth. Unless if I jump to conclusions, which I am not going to do.

Now, of course, you're saying to yourself, "If you can't explain why, then why would should I believe you?"

Excellent question. Here's why.

In the following I intend to prove that time travel is not only the best solution, but the only solution.

Crowley and Mazus, were born respectively, in the years 345 and 374. However they both died in the year 340. This may look strange, dying first then being born second, but this is what happed. No one disputes that they died in 340, but the question is, how it that possible.

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THE REINCARNATION THEORY

Reincarnation. The rebirth of the soul in another body. To be reborn or to be born again.

First off, let's assume the timeline is accurate, because if not, then what are we working with?

Now, when I see a man on a time line, being born in 374 and dying in 340, I'm thinking, "Okay, that's a little weird." And at first glance I'd might think, "Hey, that's reincarnation at work." But, at a second glance, I would see that there's only one birth and one death. Only one birth. Where is the rebirth? You need a minimum of two births to be qualified as reincarnating. Otherwise it wouldn't be reincarnation, no matter how you look at it. If I claim the rebirth is in 374, then where is the original birth? No where to be found on the timeline. If I am convinced, they reincarnated, there is only one arguement I could have. The timeline is not correct. It is missing some information, therefore not accurate. Now 345 and 374 were either their original birth dates or their 'rebirth' birth dates, but either way I am missing one set of birth dates. However, if the timeline is correct, unfortunately, reincarnation is not correct, the fact being that they were only born once.

The truth is, it's either one way or the other. Either reincarnation is wrong, and the timeline is right, or the timeline is wrong, and reincarnation is right. One of them has to be wrong. They can't possibly both be right. If they were both right, that would result in a contradiction. Assuming the timeline is correct, there is no way reincarnation could have occured. No chance. None.

Time travel, whether perferred or not, is the only thing consistent with the time line.


So what do you think?
Does any of this make sense?


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THE CLONIG THEORY

The cloning theory, just like the reincarnation theory, is not possible, unless of course the timeline is wrong.

"It was their clones who really died in 340! Or it was the 'real' Mazus and Crowley that died in 340!"

The first explanation, that their clones died in 340 and the 'real' Mazus and Crowley are alive today. Well, how did they clone people who weren't even born yet? When were the clones born/die? When were the 'real' Mazus and Crowley born/die? You're missing some dates. We would need at least four birth dates, we have four people, but we only have two. Something's not adding up. Either birth dates have been neglected, therefore the timeline is not accurate. Or the timeline is accurate, and there were no clones.

As for the second explanation, that the 'real' Mazus and Crowley died in 340 and their clones are alive and well today. So your saying in S1 and S2 we are playing with their clones? Even so, how were you able to clone them if they died in 340? When were the 'real' Mazus and Crowley originally born? In 374 and 345? Or was that their clones birth dates? If so, where are their original birth dates? No matter how you look at it, we're missing some information on the time line. And, again, either the timeline is inaccurate or there were no clones.

As far as other possibilities, "It was their twin brothers who really died that day! Or better yet, it was their fathers! Yeah, the Mazus and Crowley we really know of are Mazus Jr. and Crowley Jr. Their fathers died in 340. Well how ere they born 5 and 24 years later? Well that still leaves out their brothers/fathers birth dates. Unless, of course, the timeline left that out as well.

We can go on and on, but the problem is, either the timeline is wrong, or the theory is wrong. If we keep concluding the timeline is wrong, then what good is the timeline? No good. If the theory is wrong, then we can just say it's wrong. The only theory that is consistent and doens't contradict the timeline, is the time travel theory.

It's understandable that the time travel theory is not popuplar with the fans of Mazus and Crowley. Lots of people like them, and want to see them return in future suikoden games. So killing them off is obviously not a popular idea. Chances are you would be more willingly to accept alternate theories such as reicarnation, cloning, ect. Reincarnation and cloning, makes sense if you are trying to keep them alive. You can kill them off again and again, and they could just keep coming back. But if you support reincarnation or cloning, then you would have to say either the timeline is wrong, or say that you are contradicting yourself.

The reason why I accept the time travel theory over the other theories, is because it is the only one that is not contradicting itself, and is consistent with the timeline. After all, if you are going to have a timeline, you mine as well take it seriously. Otherwise, what's the point in having one?


So what do you think?
Does any of this make sense?

[John Layfield]

The theory is viable, despite it's lack of wide-spread popularity.

But the thing is, yes, the time-line is low on details, because it is mainly a fan-made effort based on the small details we get. We only get told what is relevent. For example, we know that Crowley and Mazus died during their battle because it is stated in the information released on the Karakas region. We know their date of 'return' because their ages at the time of their game appearances were subtracted from the year the game takes place in. The timeline is not concrete.

What we do know is that they are the same Crowley and Mazus, spirit-wise, at the very least. The Crowley of the present has the same thoughts etc as the Crowley of the past, ditto Mazus, we know it isn't a case of 'same names, nothing else'.

It's a possible theory but there is no reason to consider over the reincarnation theory. And that's the problem.
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One day, I shall come back. Yes, we shall all come back. Until then, there must be no regrets, no tears, no anxieties. Just go forward in all your beliefs and prove to me that I am not mistaken in mine.

[Krawnik]

I'd say what lends the time-travel theory credibility is that Crowley and Mazus only have birthdates listed after their deaths. If they really had reincarnated, shouldn't they have two birthdates listed? One for when they were actually born, and one for when they reincarnate? If they really time-travelled, they would have been born in their respective years, lived for however long they did, time-travel when they did, and then died before they were born, end of story. If we believe the reincarnation theory then we're short of information. And as other people mentioned, time travel is not outside the realm of possibility in Suikoden, while reincarnation has never been alluded too.
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[John Layfield]

[Aurelien]

[Kalidor]

Ok, I'm puzzling this out as I go along, so bear with me. I'm trying to think of a plausible reason why Crowley and Mazus would time travel, if that is indeed how they died before they were born. Alright, here goes...

There is no disputing that Crowley and Mazus are incredibly powerful mages in their own right, nigh to True Rune power. What's more, they gained this power through intense study. Within their studies I'm sure that time travel made an appearance once or twice, and they could have learned the secret of it. Now, given the intense rivalry between Crowley and Mazus and the power that they wield, any duel between the two would likely result in depth. They were smart enough people to realise this too. Now, if one were to die in the present, I'm thinking that would be it, you're dead, exit soul stage left. However, what would happen if one were to die before they were born? As far as I can figure, this would not likely have any effect on the circumstances leading up to your birth, as long as the deceased parents were in no way effected by the death of their future child. Getting confusing yet?

If this were so, then Crowley and Mazus would both likely know this. So, in order to insure that death would not be the end of the road, they both travelled back in time when their confrontation inevitably occured. During the course of the battle, the magical conflagration killed both of them. However, these were people schooled in the arcane secrets, and each no doubt studied life and death. I don't find it inconceivable to think that they had a way not to go wherever souls go upon death, and hung around. Then, when their respective parents conceived, this soul entered the vessel, since he was in fact the rightful soul for that body. So now, you have a reborn Crowley, and a reborn Mazus, but both of them have the soul of their future self that returned from the future, thus entitling them both to all of their previous knowledge.

Alright, it's not a perfect theory, and I don't even know if I agree with it over reincarnation or any other theory, it was just fun to postulate. I welcome comments and criticism, but prefer if it is constructive. Let's see if we can't hammer out something plausible for time travel, since we don't have any right or wrong after all, at least until Konami says so.

[Aurelien]

Hmm, that's an interesting addition to support the time travelling theory. But once again, there is no direct supporting ideas to support the theory. Like the one thing where you mentioned "I'm sure that time travel made an appearance once or twice" While this is true (Crowley and Mazus were both involved in Gate Rune War and Dunan Unification War respectively and Viki was definitely involved in both wars), the following bit about them learning the secret of it is a very big speculation.

So far, we only know Night Rune, Viki, and Little Viki to be able to time travel. Night Rune most likely was able to do it because it's a True Rune. Little Viki, we have no idea about. Viki seemed to have no clue either because she seemed to not realize things when she actually time travelled. So it would be quite hard IMO for Crowley and Mazus to be able to "learn" time travel. Of course, it's still possible.

Then the problem with the post above is the question on whether Crowley and Mazus changed the future or not. Say they went back to IS 340 so they could be born once again in latter years and entered the bodies with their "old" soul, like what Kalidor said. Would that mean that they're stuck in that cycle of "born - time travel to the past - death - born" ? Or would it be a one time deal as in "born - time travel to the past - death - born - avoid time travel/death by not time travelling - real death" ? This is a very difficult thing to discuss due to the lack of supporting ideas.

Again, it is possible, but I have yet to see a satisfying explanation on the time travelling theory.
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~City-States of Jowston and Tinto Republic~
06.06.2004 - 20.01.2008

[Urn]

Actually, we can't denounce the theory of reincarnation because we never know when they were first born. We just know they both died in IS 340. We also know they were almost equal in magic, but Crwley is slightly superior allowing him to be reborn earlier only 5 years later when it took Mazus 34 years. That doesn't help the theory of time travel, it just shows that Crowley was a better mage and could use magic to be reincarnated quicker.

The time travel theory is plausible, but just because they didn't have a birth date before IS 340 does not mean they weren't born before then. With that said and analysing your theory, I still can't fathom a reason why they would travel back to IS 340 to battle. You give a theory, but then show that he could just have easily done so in the present which makes the theory less credible. But, I agreew that you give an interesting and plausible reason, but it still doesn't make it more acceptible than the reincarnation theory.
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[Deleted User 1]

So you are saying the timeline is not accurate. No surprises here. Like I said earlier, either the timeline is wrong, or the theory.

Of course, with the timeline being wrong and all, the problem is, any theory will do. We can fill in the blanks, as we see fit, to make sense of the situation.

With the timeline how it is at present, time travel is the only theory that works. That's all I'm trying to say. If you don't agree with at least that part, there is nothing I can say.


On a lighter side, here are a couple of quotes that I felt were entertaining:

[Aurelien]

[Urn]

The point I'm trying to make is that just because they don't give Crowley and Mazus a birthdate before IS 340 doesn't mean they weren't born before then. It just means that the creators don't know when Crowley and Mazus were first born. This is very common in history for people to not have a known birthdate. It just gives more mystery to their character.

[Aurelien]