Highland and conventional morality

[Wataru]

Highland, pre-Luca Highland that is, seems to me to be a pretty noble nation. Rowd and Luca are jerks, to be sure, but everyone else seems pretty cool. We do not hear any evidence of Highland doing anything that would be considered an affront to what most people would consider evil, barbaric or sick. During the Jowston-Highland was with Han and Genkaku, the Highlanders seems civil and honorable. They are willing to put down arms and accept a peace agreement, accept the duel proposition, and are also willing to play fair during the duel (it's Darrel that cheats). Even in S2, Solon Jhee, Culgan, Seed, Kiba and Klaus all seem chivalrous, honorable and even heroic in their own way (Seed may be a little rash and Solon may get carried away, but it is a war after all).

What I'm getting at is, when Highland's prince starts buring villages down, slaughtering unarmed peasants and sacrificing most of the population of one of the largest cities on the continent, what do the people of Highland think of all this? Kiba and Klaus seem to have no idea about the Muse sacrifices in Radat (they're not the kind to lie), but I'm sure rumors have started. Would the people of highland support this? Would they think the "bastards who slaughtered the Unicorn Brigade" deserved all that?

It's clear the people in government thought Luca was a first-class nutjob, but what about the citizens? The people of Sajah seem angry that Jowy led them to ruin, but don't really seem to say much about their own atrocities (unless I mised something). Is that kind of thing accepted in Highland or do they just not know about it? And what if they did know about it?

Even if all of that is passed off as wartime necessities (an "enemy deserves no mercy" belief), what about Jowy's "sacrifice" of Jillia? The soldiers are cheering wildly when he does it. Culgan and Seed obviously find it distasteful that Jowy is "killing his wife" like that, but the men eat it up. Are they or are the soldiers showing what conventional Highland morality is? If a general in the army today decided to ritualistaically sacrifice someone in front of their troops to raise morale, I don't think it would have quite the same effect. Is that kind of practice customary in Highland? If it is, it seems inconsistent with their noble exterior. I'm sure that the peasants would find out the the queen was cut open on the balcony of the palace for all to see. Are they so afraid of the Beast Rune that they would allow this to happen without even marking the killer as a "monster?" Would Jowy and Luca go down in history as butchers or just be known as the people who brought Highland down?

[John Layfield]

Here's the 'deal'. No biased feeling here, by the way.

Soldiers follow orders, no matter how heinous. It's the way it was done back in 'the day' and it's the way it's done now. In that respect, the soldiers partcipation in the events at Ryube and Toto are not valid as a show of a lack of Highland morality.

The Muse incidents are the sole knowledge of officers stationed there. (Who, remember, have no say), Jowy (who, obviously, disliked the entire idea) and Luca Blight. (who is an insane maniac) Rumours do spread, but rumours are rumours and while it may mean something to civilians eager for news, it would be quickly dismissed by a loyal general who would assume (and rightly so, this is an exceptional case) that such things do not happen, especially without all the generals knowledge.

War reports don't reach serfs quickly or in their full form. They only recieve the bare facts, because that's all they want to know: Did Highland win, or did Jowston? The Allies only truely learned of the actions of the Nazis after the war ended, as did many German people. The Rape of Nanking wasn't regarded as a major problem at the time, save for those directly involved. Just like Muse, the people of Muse cared a whole lot, but then again, Shu never seemed to be too worried himself. It was ignored simply because it wasn't directly related to the State at the time. The same applies here. All the common Highlander knew was that Highland was winning and now it was falling. It's after the war that individual events come out.

As regards the 'sacrifice of Jilia', it was a desperate ploy to garner morale just before Highlands fall. This wasn't a "Oooh, let's sacrifice someone!" situation, it was a very last desperate measure to try and bolster the troops in the face of defeat. It wouldn't work today, but then again the Suikoden game takes place in a historical setting not a modern one. Do you sacrifice a willing person to ensure the lives of thousands? Apparantly so. Except of course, it wasn't a person at all.
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One day, I shall come back. Yes, we shall all come back. Until then, there must be no regrets, no tears, no anxieties. Just go forward in all your beliefs and prove to me that I am not mistaken in mine.

[Vextor]

Just a correction about the Rape of Nanjing. That incident happened in 1937, and was reported widely by journalists who were at Nanjing at that time. Chicago Daily and the New York Times reported on "massive killings" going on in Nanjing 5 days after Nanjing fell to the Japanese army. This was in 1937.

The only problem is that not many people in the USA really cared about what was going on in Asia. It's sort of like how people don't care much about what is happening in Darfur, Sudan right now.

Sorry, that was a tangent, but I'm sort of fanatical about history in the Far East.

[John Layfield]

Thanks for the correction, point amended to reflect the information.
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One day, I shall come back. Yes, we shall all come back. Until then, there must be no regrets, no tears, no anxieties. Just go forward in all your beliefs and prove to me that I am not mistaken in mine.

[Wataru]

I completely understand the "Soldiers follow orders" concept. Soldiers do distasteful things, but they do find them distasteful. That is what I'm asking. Would a Highland person find those acts distateful and do them because they were ordered to, or would they do them because they wanted to? During the burining of Ryube, Kiba is obviously not too keen on the idea and tries to get Luca out of there. He finds something wrong with the idea. Would an avergae Highland soldier feel the same way? Apple said Luca killed the people of Toto to "keep his troops entertained." Watching civilians get butchered would entertain them? Is Luca just so far gone that he thinks someone other than him would be entertained by seeing that or is he on track?

As for the "sacrifice," I understand the motivation behind the whole facade, but what I'm saying is, why would something like that raise morale? Is human sacrifice something that Highland troops would find inspiring and feel empowered by?

Speaking from my own perspective, if I was a soldier and my unit was summoned to the palace for a rally and then it turned out that the king was going to cut his wife open in front of everybody, I would hardly get pumped after seeing it. In my head I would be thinking "What the **** is going on here? This is sick." I have this opinion because of being exposed to the conventional morality of my country in this day and age. In modern Western society, human sacrifice is considered wrong. In the society of the Incas, it was not considered wrong and would get a bunch of soldiers pumped up for battle. That's the culture that they lived in. Highland seems to me to be very Western, very European, in its dress, customs, architecture and social structure, so I would think that their sense of morality would be similar to Europe's. If that were true an act like that would be looked down on and the average soldier would probably be repulsed, not inspired.

But the soldiers cheered. Of course the soldiers cheered, if they didn't they might be next. But what I'm asking is, did that act really raise morale? If it did, that says a lot for Highland troops. Even in the Dark Ages, a ritualistic human sacrifice was looked down on by most conventional schools of thought. Even the most ignorant peasant would think, "Hey, that's pretty ****ed up right there." Do the Highland soldiers feel differently? Most of the German people were mortified when they did learn about the war atrocities after the fact. If they knew about them, they went along with them because their leader was a madman and would probably make them disappear if they spoke out against it. Such is the case with Luca, but Jowy is not like that. For Jowy to do something like that, he would need a reason to think that people would actually be inpsired by a sacrifice.

If Highalnders do have a different view of human sacrifice if it is a practice that is not unheard of there, it does make sense. The nation is ruled by (as Luc says outisde Muse) "slaves" to a Rune that governs passion and seems to have dominion over bestial, violent, chaotic and savage things. The Rune itself is only awakened by a blood sacrifice. A nation devoted to a Rune like that would seemingly have no problem with the practice of human sacrifice.

What I'm asking is, can we infer that acceptance of things like this would be part of the Highland national character? Would a highland soldier get inspired by seeing a sacrifice?
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[John Layfield]

[Aurelien]

I think one big problem about trying to know what Highlanders are like is the fact that we don't really get much exposure on Highland commoners due to the focus being laid on Jowston people and Highland military. Out of the Highland area, we're only shown L'Renouille, Sajah Village, Kyaro Town, and Tenzan Pass.

Tenzan Pass is definitely out of the question because it's only a mountain pass. L'Renouille didn't help much either because we were only shown the castle part of the city rather than how the people are like there. Sajah Village isn't helpful either. We're just shown about it at the very end of the war. Whatever shown there doesn't seem to reflect how the people really are. So we're left with only Kyaro Town.

Kyaro Town seems to be full of people who simply believed what the rumor said. While it's not really *that* wrong to do so, I find it that it kind of showed how the people there are kind of weak-minded in a sense that they are "followers" rather than "leaders". When there was a rumor of a spy from Jowston in Unicorn Brigade, they just ate it up. And when it found out to be Riou and Jowy, they still believed what Rowd said rather than trying to investigate or question the truth. They were supposed to know how both Riou and Jowy were due to both living for quite some time in that town. They should've known that there would be no chance for them to be spies without contact with Jowstonians. Yet, they believed whatever Rowd said, and just taken things for granted.

Edit: This post is now invalid. So no need to respond to this.
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~City-States of Jowston and Tinto Republic~
06.06.2004 - 20.01.2008

[Beecham]

[Earthquake923]

I agree with Wataru. I am surprised that some of the soliders didn't leak out info, and rebel as to what had happened. Just because a solider is loyal, doesn't mean they don't have a sence of right and wrong. I believe they had a problem with this in Vietnam, and soldiers either went crazy, or killed each other in the worse case. What people forget is propaganda goes along way. I mean we as americans(I am assuming) fall prey to this constantly. The media puts a certin spin on a story, builds it up , and then tears it down.
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If anybody asks about the avatar, I did it for Jess.

[Aurelien]

[John Layfield]

Everone takes information at face value. There's nothing incredibly sheep-like about it. Reports come in that there was a Jowston massacre of the Unicorn Brigade, why not believe it? The alternative (which, yes, happened to be the truth) is far less likely to happen: "Oh, sorry, our royal prince is insane and killed them all to fuel a war with Jowston in revenge for a horrible deed commited in his child-hood, ok."

Jowy and Riou have potentially thousands of chances to talk with Jowston official or troops and be 'turned' into spies. Riou's house is very much out of the way, and Jowy visits there often. What if a Jowston spy was meeting them there? What if someone like Kage contacted them amongst the trees at Tenzan? The idea that you'd have to be a sheep to believe it because there was no way it could happen is false. Rowd was a well-liked guy, he wasn't considered a jerk by ANYONE before the massacre, not even by his subordinates. So, an official report, that was within the realms of possiblity was delivered by a respected captain... and people believed it? Wow-ee.

And of course, soldiers did rebel. Kiba's unit only fought out of a loyalty to Agares, not out of any amoral principles, once Agares died and Highlands direction under Luca was sealed, they switched sides. Just because we didn't recieve note of every incident, doesn't mean it never happened.
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One day, I shall come back. Yes, we shall all come back. Until then, there must be no regrets, no tears, no anxieties. Just go forward in all your beliefs and prove to me that I am not mistaken in mine.

[Wolf Stew]

It's possible that Highland's general population didn't know about the atrocities committed at Muse (not to mention Toto and Ryube, which were both burned to the ground), but I think Highland was so inflamed by the massacre of the Unicorn Brigade, that they were willing to let Luca do as he pleased in retaliation. Plus, Highland and Jowston had a long history of resentment and conflict anyway, so Luca Blight didn't have to do much to whip up popular opinion against Jowston. It would probably be the equivalent of a German leader whipping up public sentiment against the French just prior to WWI. It wouldn't be that hard to do!

I'm not sure I agree with the earlier post that the WWII allies (or the German people themselves) were unaware of Nazi atrocities, either. There's evidence that the US and Britain knew what was going on early in the war, but for either practical reasons (because they couldn't reach the concentration camps) or military ones (they preferred to direct the war effort in other areas), they chose to turn a blind eye to what was going on. It's probably safe to assume that the US and Britain didn't know the *extent* of the Holocaust, but they certainly knew *something* was going on.

[John Layfield]

Knowing "Something" was happening is not the same as, I quote, only truely learning of the actions commited by the Nazis. I mean, if you're going to point out something, at least make sure you're pointing out what was said and not making a point out of nowhere.
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One day, I shall come back. Yes, we shall all come back. Until then, there must be no regrets, no tears, no anxieties. Just go forward in all your beliefs and prove to me that I am not mistaken in mine.

[Exile]

Nazism in Suikoden? I always thought that was more Harmonia's forté with their will to seemingly invade everywhere and capture all the true runes. Their slavery and class systems, their Arian(sp?) only policy and the German based names they sometimes sport (such as Nash's Grosser Flüss).

The noble nation Highland seemed to be under Agares was probably just because of that, it was under Agares, things changed with Luca taking control of the military and I can tell you from psychology when peers tell you to do something especially in a ranked system such as the military pressure to conform can be huge, we actually studied a little about the german soldiers in WWII and some about a false reverend who created his own little nation on an island commiting all sorts of atrocities and when the military came to sort him out he somehow convinced (more than) half the residents to take cyanide to kill themselves. Honestly, that was the pressure they felt they were under to follow this man's orders, this wasn't just a few people either, sadly I can't remember his name.

So yes, my point is conformity would have played a large part in convincing people to commit these atrocities in Ryube, Muse and Toto in the name of their kingdom even if a normal Highland citizen would think that it was wrong to do so knowing the full situation.

Oh yes, and group anonymity. There's also the point that their actions might not seem morally reprehensible to the soldiers commiting them since they were in a state of war. War was different in the past, let us remember they have no Geneva convention in Suikoden.
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Cry woe, destruction, ruin, and decay -
The worst is death, and death will have his day.

[Aurelien]