Prequels and the Apocalypse

[sybillious]

i'll also point out that in each and every game, luc expresses nothing but contempt for people, including the army he serves in; he also says that he has a great hatred for mankind. not exactly the words and attitude of a 'caring' individual; his anger towards hikkusak, coupled with his growing angst over his 'creation', wouldn't allow for him to come to terms with his 'life.'

i doubt that he would have changed his stance over a course of 15 years; he didn't care that millions would be sacrificed-his goal was his only true concern. if he truly cared about the people, then why not pick a more isolated site for his 'ritual?' that would have shown some thought on the behalf of those he supposedly cared for, as opposed to choosing a site close to inhabited areas.
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prinny...DOOD!

gotta gotta get a...SPICE WEASEL!

to paraphrase my fellow mod, parallax:
I hate my job with the passionately burning intensity of a thousand fiery suns.

[Krawnik]

Hmmm.... some people here have some pretty crazy ideas. I'm going to have to replay Suikoden III to get a bit more information about this.

First of all, does anyone know what the cause of the Silent World was? Like, why Chaos was destroyed (If that's what the Silent World is)? If the True Wind Rune knew, maybe it has something to do with the True Runes?

If it has something to do with the True Runes, I've got two suggestions.

1) The Silent World requires the use of all 27 True Runes, and the True Wind Rune was trying to prevent this by getting Luc to destroy it (and himself... and everyone in a 30 mile radius).
2) The Silent World will come about if one or more of the Runes are destroyed, and the TWR is trying to get this to happen by getting Luc to destroy it.

Either way, Luc said himself that the True Wind Rune was a part of his soul, instead of just a thing on his hand. The TWR probably has some influence on Luc, and probably has at least a limited role in the creation of the Silent World. Think like... Tyler Durden in Fight Club. When he explains his whoel fantasy to the protagonist. How he pictures people growing crops off the sides of old highways and scaling decrepid skyscrapers in leather clothing. Maybe the True Wind Rune presented Luc with a vision of how it wanted the world to be, without conflict or life. It devised a way to do that, by destroying itself, and urged Luc to journey in order to achieve this. The whole idea that fate is tangible is a cornerstone of Suikoden, so maybe it applies to the True Runes as well.
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416- friggin' racists, messing up my generalizations, also stealing my jobs, women.
RIP Ninjalicious

[Urn]

I'll mention this again, Luc is only a mortal. His emotions about humanity and his unfortunate circumstances made have caused him to project an emotion onto the True Wind Rune which reflected his own vision of the world's future. The True Wind Rune may have just shown Luc a future that Luc wanted to see.

But, I'd agree that the True Wind Rune could not cause complete Order by itself. Therefore, the other 26 True Runes would have to be involved. Luc mentions that True Runes repress the freedom of mortal beings. Even Yuber feels controlled. Yuber asks for freedom from the curse of the Eightfold Rune, as well.

But, like I alluded to, this may be do to the fact that mortals are prone to revolt against their masters. The vision could have been a future Luc could fathom if the True Wind Rune remained intertwined with his very being. Maybe the future of Order was something that Luc felt could only be possible if True Runes continued to control mortal beings.

As for Luc caring about mankind as a whole, I don't know if his motive for destroying the True Wind Rune was that benevolent. Of course, Luc could justify it by saying that a world controlled by Order would lead to the downfall of mankind which his vision predicted, but I believe that Luc wanted to destroy the True Wind Rune in order to be freed from its hold on his life. Luc wanted true freedom and could never have it as long as the True Wind Rune was intertwined with his soul. The safety of the world was secondary to his own freedom.
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~ Humbly walk the path of death

KOOLUK SUPPORTS TINTO MINERS

[Beecham]

Personally, I think that True Wind is a servant of chaos. It shows this world to Luc in order to manipulate him into doing what he can to stop the world of Order from coming about; however, it backfires, as Luc wishes to destroy his own Rune. I agree with Syb; he doesn't care about people, he cares about himself. He is the perpetual angtsy teen, and if he can go out in such a blaze of glory, the pinnacle of a pyre of souls, it's exactly what he would go for.

Side note, Krawnik, he's going to take out a lot more than a thirty mile radius. He'd kill virtually no one with that, by comparison. No, this explosion could wipe out the greater portion of the continent.

Personally, the way I see it is, is that the True Runes are at war with each other, split by the same battle lines of Sword and Shield. There are those that serve Chaos and those that serve Order, and may try to frighten their Bearers with visions of a world where the other side has won. A smart Bearer will see that and do everything he can to stop it, not knowing the other part of the equation: what the world will look like if his own side wins. Not a pretty idea, that.

[Urn]

I pretty much share the idea that True Runes are at war, but I don't believe they are at war against each other. I believe there is something else going on behind the scenes. Yes, from what we understand, the True Runes are equivalent to the gods of the Suikoden World. But, the fact that they are semi-subserviant (they generally need bearers to be actively present in the Suikoden World) to mortals bothers me. Also, the fact that the Sindar seem to have had so much knowledge on how to detain them, through seals, causes me to wonder if they are really in charge. I sort of believe that True Runes symbolize greater entities that were present at a time in the distant past.

The reason that I believe that True Runes don't specifically follow Order or Chaos is because each of the 17 True Runes we have seen all have an inherent part of them which reflects Order and Chaos. If they were to fight for one or the other then that would cause inner conflict amongst themselves reflecting a pointless existence. I just can't help but think there is more to the story. True Runes seem to be powerful tools reflecting another existence which they symbolize.
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~ Humbly walk the path of death

KOOLUK SUPPORTS TINTO MINERS

[Earthquake923]

But since the "True" runes were created for the orignal Sword and Shield, and destroyed each other, it's not that far fetched to think maybe the "True" runes are on 1 of 2 sides. Twisting humanity as the see fit. Trying to make things better for their side. I mean all the runes know is fighting. That's what they are a direct product of.
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If anybody asks about the avatar, I did it for Jess.

[Urn]

The idea that the True Runes come from Sword and Shield is based on the Creation Myth, which is just that a myth. We cannot be sure that the True Runes actually come from the Sword and Shield at all. But, I do believe the True Runes are manipulative in the fact that they corrupt their bearers to fulfill their individual desires which may not be their own desires. These desires may be given to them by some other being. This is just a theory, wild yes, but a theory nevertheless.
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~ Humbly walk the path of death

KOOLUK SUPPORTS TINTO MINERS

[Earthquake923]

So the fact that people are here on this world created by"god"(take your pick) sorta proves it. No one was around for the creation, but there is now way to disprove it.
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If anybody asks about the avatar, I did it for Jess.

[Wataru]

I tend to think there's more to the creation myth than people say. The world is only 1000 years old? OK, so human evolution, science, culture and growth moved forward at rocket speed for a time and then slowed down to a crawl.

In the year 475, Luc said the world was 1000 years old. Assuming he is right, that means the world was created in -525. By the year 305 (830 years) humanity had advanced to a Renaissance level of advancement in some places and a medieval level in others. 800 years after the big bang I doubt multicellular life had even formed, and 800 years after humanity evolved into something resembling homo sapiens, we were still living in caves and wearing animal skins.

Even if Sierra was born among cavemen, that would mean that 830 years of explosive growth stops completely since there is almost no technology changes between S4 and S1 (they can't even make decent advances on the elevator in 1/5 of the time they created civilation, language and all the other elements that make up the world?).

Taking the Creation Myth at face value is a very dangerous thing indeed.
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[Urn]

Just because you can't prove something doesn't make it true. I could say I'm here eating a caramel pizza with celery, but there's no way you can prove it. Would you say it was true? Truth and Falsity are relative just like right and wrong. I wouldn't want to get into a philosophical discussion here, but the fact that a myth cannot be proven false does not make it true. It just makes it a feasible theory to explain something unknown.
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~ Humbly walk the path of death

KOOLUK SUPPORTS TINTO MINERS

[John Layfield]

All religious beliefs are myths by definition, the story of Sword and Shield is the same. If you believe in the Magic Sky Man (aka God) you can surely believe in the Suikoden Creation Myth as having happened in Suikoden. Facts and figures don't point towards it, but ditto goes for religion here.

Actually, that's not true. There's more plausibility to the Sword and Shield myth. The True Runes are capable of communication via visions and the like, it's not unreasonable to assume that a True Rune showed a bearer a vision of this creation so many years ago.
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One day, I shall come back. Yes, we shall all come back. Until then, there must be no regrets, no tears, no anxieties. Just go forward in all your beliefs and prove to me that I am not mistaken in mine.

[Urn]

Even if that's true, there's no way we can be sure that that bearer saw the vision correctly or that the vision was the actual way things began in the Suikoden World. Basically, I just question the use of visions or voices to portray a story or legend. Seeing is believing to me, but then again, some things just can't be explained. My point is that visions can be misconstrued and altered according to the whim of the person having those said visions.

We all have fantasies and daydreams which could be seen as visions, but that doesn't mean that they should be taken as truth eventhough they may seem feasible and very real. And I'm not trying to compare Suikoden to reality, but I'm just making a point of how unreliable a vision can be in any sense. Who is to say that some other being did not create the True Runes as tools to symbolize something greater as a means to control the minds of those mortal beings of the Suikoden World? That is very feasible, as well.
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~ Humbly walk the path of death

KOOLUK SUPPORTS TINTO MINERS

[John Layfield]

Of course. Except the only thing mentioned within all four Suikoden games by Old Books and characters is... the Creation Myth.

It's the most evidence we have. It's not a lot, and it's flimsy but it's all we have. That puts it in the lead by default. A theory about some being creating the runes "to symbolize something greater as a means to control the minds of those mortal beings of the Suikoden World" is equal to a theory about Flappy the Happy Space Duck picking runes out from his nostril in terms of evidence. Not to be rude, but I needed a really bad comparison there.
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One day, I shall come back. Yes, we shall all come back. Until then, there must be no regrets, no tears, no anxieties. Just go forward in all your beliefs and prove to me that I am not mistaken in mine.

[Urn]

Unfortunately, even my flimsy theory holds just as much weight as the Creation Myth since neither can be proven true or false. And actually, that theory is not farfetched considering the True Runes generally need a conduit to formally express their powers in the actual world. This denotes that True Runes are subserviant to mortal beings, hence they are generally tools, powerful tools that have the potential to manipulate their weilder if they are too feeble to control it, but tools nonetheless.

Therefore, one can sumise that the True Runes could have been made by some powerful beings (Darkness, Sword, and Shield can be names of beings or entities) as a means to control lower life-forms to some certain end. It is more feasible than them just falling to the some unknown earth and all of a sudden waging war on one another.

If the True Runes symbolize some melevolent force as tools created by some other being then we can easily explain why mortal beings seem so important to the True Runes. It makes better sense because if True Runes are simply god-like entities and have no other force above them, then they truly have no need to use mortal beings, as well. And this would contradict the fact that most True Runes choose a bearer to use their powers and seemingly carry out their desires. But, this is just a theory.
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~ Humbly walk the path of death

KOOLUK SUPPORTS TINTO MINERS

[Exile]

You could of course use the sword and shield reference and take it as a metaphor for some kind of collision between interstellar bodies in a big-bang-esque brand of creation that just happened to create those 27 true runes in the process as well as life and planets etc.

I'd take the sword and Shield as a metaphor in some way personally but it's not reality and it could be meant as is...however I find it funny to think of a giant floating sword and shield duelling, this is an RPG though and anything in the creator's mind is possible.

My 2 cents.
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Cry woe, destruction, ruin, and decay -
The worst is death, and death will have his day.