| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Hawk Thanatos
Radical Dreamers
Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Post Count: 3656
Location: Guardia Kingdom
167582 Potch
43 Soldiers
1337 Nation Points
|
 Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:54 pm Post subject: |
  |
|
| Amyral wrote: |
| A good author won't cater to the fan's collective whim on what will happen, a good author will write good stories even if the fans want and/or thought it would go in an entirely different direction. That doesn't mean a good writer will shit on his or her current fans to spite them, it means what the fans want have no real bearing on what will happen with the story, characters, etc. The fans don't determine who a character is, the author does. |
You took the whole "ownership" thing I said way too literally and I didn't say a good author will do whatever the fans want, I said a good author will remain true to the characters. If you bought the first book in a series and the characters acted one way, then you bought the second book and the characters acted completely different for no good reason wouldn't you be annoyed? Wouldn't you say that such a thing is a sign of bad authoring? |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Lord Rengo
The Magus' Army
Joined: 23 Oct 2005
Post Count: 729
Location: Pale Plains
33445 Potch
200 Soldiers
0 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:39 am Post subject: |
|
|
Well, I'm a Harry Potter fan but like many have said in here, it doesn't bother me at all. I don't know why it would/should either. It's just something that adds to his story after the fact.
| Hawk Thanatos wrote: |
| You took the whole "ownership" thing I said way too literally and I didn't say a good author will do whatever the fans want, I said a good author will remain true to the characters. If you bought the first book in a series and the characters acted one way, then you bought the second book and the characters acted completely different for no good reason wouldn't you be annoyed? Wouldn't you say that such a thing is a sign of bad authoring? |
I'm really confused where you're going with this. You're saying here that a good author would "remain true to the characters." Yet, in your post before that you said:
| Hawk Thanatos wrote: |
| I do think however that J.K Rowling has done a good job and that Dumbledore being gay really doesn't conflict with the rest of the story in any way. |
So, you're arguing with someone that not being true to the characters is bad authoring (which most, if not all, people would agree with that) when you've already said that Dumbledore being gay is not in any way contradicting his character and that Rowling did a good job.
I do, however, agree that people should be allowed to complain about what happens in the books they read, video games they play, movies they watch, etc. If it's a series that is new or a one time thing, the easy solution instead of complaining would be to just forget about it and move on. But if it's a series a person has come to enjoy only to see it ruined later with crappy writing and such, then they have a right to complain. Get their money back? No. Change how it was made or decide what comes next? (Other than fanfiction...) No. But they do have a right to complain (as long as it doesn't hurt anyone, of course). That doesn't mean it'll do any good. An easy solution is to just not buy anything by that author anymore. So really, fans don't have any type of ownership in that world (outside of fanfiction, which is obviously, not canon). It is entirely up to the author if they want to change a few things in future stories that fans didn't like. Since no one is forcing anyone to buy the books, if someone doesn't like it, they can decide not to.
Okay, what the hell am I talking about now. I'll end it on a little side note.
| Hawk Thanatos wrote: |
| People can always complain and it can end up being a good thing (sometimes). Imagine if no one had complained about Suikoden IV. |
Before I played the game a second time (I needed the clear data for Tactics because I never wanted to spend time collecting 108 stars the first time) I would have agreed with this statement. I went into the game thinking... this is going to suck for the next (insert hours it took to play the game) hours. Amazingly, I enjoyed the majority of the time it took to play. It's definately not as bad as some people say. I was once a part of that group shouting its suckiness.
_________________
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Hawk Thanatos
Radical Dreamers
Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Post Count: 3656
Location: Guardia Kingdom
167582 Potch
43 Soldiers
1337 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:00 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Lord Rengo wrote: |
I'm really confused where you're going with this. You're saying here that a good author would "remain true to the characters." Yet, in your post before that you said:
| Hawk Thanatos wrote: |
| I do think however that J.K Rowling has done a good job and that Dumbledore being gay really doesn't conflict with the rest of the story in any way. |
So, you're arguing with someone that not being true to the characters is bad authoring (which most, if not all, people would agree with that) when you've already said that Dumbledore being gay is not in any way contradicting his character and that Rowling did a good job. |
Now you've got me confused. I'm not sure what the problem is. Personally I don't think J.K Rowling saying that Dumbledore is gay contradicts anything about his character, therefore she's remained true to the character. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Lord Rengo
The Magus' Army
Joined: 23 Oct 2005
Post Count: 729
Location: Pale Plains
33445 Potch
200 Soldiers
0 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Hawk Thanatos wrote: |
| Lord Rengo wrote: |
I'm really confused where you're going with this. You're saying here that a good author would "remain true to the characters." Yet, in your post before that you said:
| Hawk Thanatos wrote: |
| I do think however that J.K Rowling has done a good job and that Dumbledore being gay really doesn't conflict with the rest of the story in any way. |
So, you're arguing with someone that not being true to the characters is bad authoring (which most, if not all, people would agree with that) when you've already said that Dumbledore being gay is not in any way contradicting his character and that Rowling did a good job. |
Now you've got me confused. I'm not sure what the problem is. Personally I don't think J.K Rowling saying that Dumbledore is gay contradicts anything about his character, therefore she's remained true to the character. |
Well, yeah, that's what confused me. You said that and then proceeded to go on to talk about how fans should be able to complain if the author is not true to the characters and that they have "ownership" over the characters and the world. Since you're saying J. K. Rowling did, in fact, stay true to Dumbledore's character, it doesn't seem like what you're saying is really disagreeing with anyone, nor is it talking about anything on topic. So, it confused me a little bit because I don't think anyone would disagree it's bad authoring to change a character so suddenly (without a very good explanation).
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Hawk Thanatos
Radical Dreamers
Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Post Count: 3656
Location: Guardia Kingdom
167582 Potch
43 Soldiers
1337 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Lord Rengo wrote: |
| Well, yeah, that's what confused me. You said that and then proceeded to go on to talk about how fans should be able to complain if the author is not true to the characters and that they have "ownership" over the characters and the world. Since you're saying J. K. Rowling did, in fact, stay true to Dumbledore's character, it doesn't seem like what you're saying is really disagreeing with anyone, nor is it talking about anything on topic. So, it confused me a little bit because I don't think anyone would disagree it's bad authoring to change a character so suddenly (without a very good explanation). |
Well it originally started with something Tull said and then I was clarifying my point to Amyral. I'm just explaining why some people will complain about Dumbledore being gay, because they feel it contradicts their view of the character.
Let me put it this way. People will complain if an author does something that they think conflicts with a character's established personality. Now obviously no one here at suikox is complaining because as rational people us finding out about Dumbledore being gay doesn't change anything about how we feel towards the character. But what about homophobic fans of the series (which I'm sure there are some)? Obviously they're gonna be a little miffed at learning of Dumbledore's homosexuality. They're idiots of course but what can you do?
I'll edit my original reply to Tull to make my point a bit clearer. :) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tullaryx
Custodiae Corvi
Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Post Count: 5577
Location: Apacheta
4092785 Potch
200 Soldiers
20 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Then you got it right when you say they are being idiots. I mean why would suddenly finding out what a certain characters sexual orientation end up ruining the book these people have enjoyed prior to this news. Will suddenly knowing Dumbledore is gay going to make all his dialogue and actions seem to have more than meets the eye. I mean these homophobic fans would probably now think that Dumbledore was so helpful towards Harry because he had pedophilic tendencies. Or to put it into O'Reilly territory that Rowling had pedophilic tendencies she had to write out in her books.
As a fan of many large fantasy series I am always conscious of always understanding that I am just along for the ride. I'm to bear witness to the author's imagination and it's up to me whether I stay on the ride til the end or get off the next stop. Sometimes its revelations like these which actually makes my love of certain series become reinvigorated. It makes me want to go back and read to see if the clues were always there and I just missed them. Instead of railing and blaming the author for ruining my personal perception of the world the author created I am glad that there's more to the place than I ever thought.
I see fans who complain about such news and revelations as the type of think just because they spent so much amount of money (freely spent and not forced mind you) on the author's works that they feel a certain ownership. Yes, they own the copies of books they bought but not the intellectual rights to the property. These fans I liken to hijacking an authors work. They want things to go the way "they" think it should happen instead of letting the author/creator do things their way.
_________________
  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Amyral
Windriders
Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Post Count: 1355
Location: Sawgrass Landing
544907 Potch
4066 Soldiers
620 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Hawk Thanatos wrote: |
You took the whole "ownership" thing I said way too literally and I didn't say a good author will do whatever the fans want, I said a good author will remain true to the characters. If you bought the first book in a series and the characters acted one way, then you bought the second book and the characters acted completely different for no good reason wouldn't you be annoyed? Wouldn't you say that such a thing is a sign of bad authoring? |
For the first part, probably, but there's not really any other way I can see to take "fans have some ownership of the characters". Ownership implies just that, that the fans have a valid claim to the characters, story, etc. I disagree with the sentiment, because if fans have ownership, then that would mean that it's their story, as opposed to the creators. In reality, they are viewers of the story and nothing more.
For the second part, I never said they couldn't complain (in fact, I said the opposite). That comes with the right of speech.
What I said was that they have no valid claim to the characters. There's a difference. You don't have to have ownership of something to complain about it. As Tull said, when you read, you're playing witness to the author's imagination, to their hard work. You did nothing other than choose to start reading and if you don't like it, you can't really do anything meaningful other than stop. It's not your story to continue and they aren't your characters to develop.
Would it be a sign of bad authoring? I think that could only be judged in the context of the entire series. But even then, if the story is good, then the story is good. A character acting differently from one story to the next wouldn't necessarily change that. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ryu
The Sunwall Army
Joined: 11 Oct 2007
Post Count: 169
Location: Darja
83872 Potch
100 Soldiers
25 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:46 pm Post subject: Sorry i have personal issues |
|
|
wait for it... wait for it... wait for it...
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah ahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
*takes deep breath*
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah ahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
My revenge on the Harry Potter Fandom is swift!
_________________
New Armes Tarot Card Month
"If you beat a dead horse vigorously enough, it's constant twitching and juttering will at least give an assembulence of activity." ~Yahtzee, from The Escapist:Zero Punctuation |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Starslasher
Chunks of Chaco-late.
Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Post Count: 6482
Location: Dunan Delta
1177790 Potch
300 Soldiers
35 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
It shouldn't matter too much. Ultra-conservative religous groups have condemned Harry Potter anyways, so this shouldn't make too much of a difference anyways.
_________________
Guardian of Greenhill & Devoted Protector of Oulan
Bork! Bork! Bork! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Acheron
Stonewall Brigade
Joined: 13 Feb 2005
Post Count: 3951
Location: Mar-Uruk
172597 Potch
200 Soldiers
1325 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Has anyone begun to hear about any fall out from the statement? I haven't. It would seem that if this was a publicity maneuver it has failed. This sort of begins to solidify that it was simply an unrevealed character aspect. I can understand why it was omitted though. I know if I had known this when first reading the story it would have taken something away from the books for me. I wouldn't have been able to fixate as well on the plot knowing that I would be looking for signs of his homosexuality. I don't think I would have thought differently of Dumbledore but it would have been quite a distraction. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ryu
The Sunwall Army
Joined: 11 Oct 2007
Post Count: 169
Location: Darja
83872 Potch
100 Soldiers
25 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I will say... it seem to me that more and more homosexuality is creeping further and further into the mainstream popculture. That's honestly a good sign that the new generation is much much more tolerant then the current one.
_________________
New Armes Tarot Card Month
"If you beat a dead horse vigorously enough, it's constant twitching and juttering will at least give an assembulence of activity." ~Yahtzee, from The Escapist:Zero Punctuation |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Archy
PRAISE BE TO... GROOOWL RAINING BLOOD
Joined: 29 Apr 2006
Post Count: 6831
Location: Dazin
506257 Potch
0 Soldiers
800 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
OOOH, TAKE THAT POPE
Wait, I'm a Christian, this is evil, haha.
Anyhow, it shouldn't affect what people think. I reread Deathly Hallows after hearing this, and it doesn't seem Dumbledore is gay, really - you won't sense it in his interactions with Grindelwald or anything else, until Rowling tells you to.
Quite a nasty shock, I always thought Dumbledore was the gentle bastard, score for me!
_________________
| Celes Tilly wrote: |
If one of you were to ask, "Celes, what is Twisted Sister?" I would tell you God's honest truth.
"Butt rock." |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
