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NFL: Bill Bellichick and the Pats - General Discussion
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Calvin

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

There are rules in place and the Patriots broke them. I don't see what the argument is about here.

Of course other teams attempt to "steal" defensive signals. The point is that they do it without the aid of video equipment. Video equipment for these purposes is against the rules because it allows a team to have a reviewable tool that would give them foreknowledge of exactly what an opponent plans to run, which upsets the competitive balance. If you're trying to get a handle on what signals an opponent is calling in with your own eyes and ears, than more power to you--at least you're having to use some semblance of skill at that point. Plus, you'd have to think on the fly because you wouldn't have any reviewable video to go off of.

Its against the rules for a reason.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

as far as I can see there's no argument here, what's done is already done so nothing is going to change, and I'm not going to get into an argument with anyone trying to explain why it's hard to win it all in the NFL. I am not saying anyone here are the type of jerks that's bitching about this for no good reason or are doing so because they are bitter that their team is much worst than the pats, but for anyone who is, know that if this did happen to their team they would be crying about it way worst, as what is a harsh punishment means much less to us because we are that much better a team, so for that they(whoever they are) can suck it.
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Tullaryx

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well, it looks like people calling the coach, the players and the team as cheats or their Super Bowl wins as tarnished or undeserved seem to have lit a fire in the whole team. Like him or not before or after the whole videogate thing, but Belichik seem to have found a way to motivate this current Patriots team when they didn't even need it. From seeing the five games they've played so far it's not hard to argue that if they wanted to they could've run up the score on all five teams they've faced so far. They so could've made it as if their place on the BCS poll was on the line and running up the score on each team was the only way to get 1 ranking.

While finishing the season perfect still means they will have to win the Super Bowl I don't see any team right now who has a great chance of beating them for that first time or even for the Super Bowl. Their biggest test will come next week against the Cowboys, but even that high-scoring team has never faced a defense like the Patriots and also the Boys' defense I still consider suspect.

Maybe Belichik planned all of this to just so people will piss off his players into playing even better (like that's even possible).
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I'm going to bump this thread with the caveat that the very SECOND that people start getting out of hand here, I'll drop the hammer on it.

So the Pats defeated the Colts yesterday in what was a very close game. I am concerned at how Indy's D faded and that the Pats were able to score 14 in the 4th quarter to pull out the victory. Can we legitimately begin the discussion that compares them to the 72 Dolphins? What are your feelings on the Pats' chances of running the table? Do you hate on the 72 Dolphins for chugging champagne at the first loss of a previously undefeated team?

Me myself, while I sentimentally favor the Colts [I love Dungy] I wouldn't mind seeing the Pats run the table just so that we don't have to see those old guys from the Dolphins celebrating someone losing just so that they can have their precious record. I think that's just mean. Honestly, I respect their place in history, I just don't need to see their celebration to do it.

Anyway, discuss - and please be civil about it. Thanks.
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Parallax

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

If the Patriots are good enough to win sixteen games, then they should win sixteen games. I don't think there's another team in the league better than Indianapolis except for New England. But it's not easy to go 16-0...which is why the '72 Dolphins still have their record. They'll need to play at their ability every week if they expect to finish the season undefeated.

Frankly, I'd be thrilled to see another team go undefeated. It's been thirty five years, and I think that's more than long enough.

The Patriots' schedule does get a bit tougher than it has been down the road, though. They have to face Baltimore, Pittsburgh, and the New York Giants as well as Buffalo again (Buffalo has shown a lot of spark recently, so this won't be as easy the second time). Yes, they played Indianapolis and Dallas already, but the Indianapolis game was the only contest that was even close for the Patriots, and Dallas is a very soft 7-1 team.

I guess we'll see what happens.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I would think that if the Patriots run the table, then the 72 Dolphins should just be relegated to a footnote. I mean, they did only play a 14 game season then, so 16-0 > 14-0. Still, going undefeated is no easy task. For one thing, the Patriots schedule does get tougher down the stretch. They didn't pound Indy like they did the overrated Dallas team, and although Indy was the biggest threat on the schedule, that doesn't mean that Pittsburgh couldn't play better than they are, and the Patriots might be off.

The Giants are an NFC team, so I don't put any stock in them against the Patriots, and Baltimore always struggles on offense, so if you can't put points on the board, you're not going to beat the Patriots.

Really, the major stumbling block the Patriots have isn't their schedule, so much as the fact that they'll have their playoff spot early, and depending on how the Colts do, if they get the #1 ranking locked up early enough, they'll likely be throwing that joke Cassel into the games. Really, he's terrible.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

That's really the only thing that could prevent the Patriots from going undefeated this year. I think Suge Bill and the Pats have made it a mission to control their own destiny and not allow other teams to dictate things to them like the Pats did the past couple meetings. Some have said Belichik, if playing their last game of the regular season already has home-field advantage, will sit his starters down and just give away the game. I think this year may just be different and he and the players may want to go down as the best team ever and only a 19-0 record will validate that.

I don't even think it's a guarantee that the Pats and the Colts will meet again in the playoffs. The Colts did win all their games before last night but they haven't won convincingly in all of them. For some reason the Titans have been giving them fits the last couple years. There's a good chance the Colts may not even win their division if they don't play perfectly against the remaining divisional games on their schedule.
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Parallax

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Tullaryx wrote:
For some reason the Titans have been giving them fits the last couple years.


Jacksonville and the Titans seem to play their divisional games really hard in my opinion. A lot of teams do, but those two in particular impress me. Jacksonville gives the Colts fits sometimes too, or at least a good game. When those two teams are better, though, it's suddenly lot harder for the Colts to dominate. Back when Tennessee wasn't very good, the Colts were still in the habit of self-destructing a lot, and the Titans could give them problems then, too.

Tullaryx wrote:
There's a good chance the Colts may not even win their division if they don't play perfectly against the remaining divisional games on their schedule.


Let's face it; the AFC South is one of, if not the, most competitive divisions in football right now. Houston is the best team at the bottom of their division in football at 4-5. very other division features at least one prominent dog.

I still think the Colts will probably take their division. Tennessee has a surprisingly tough defense, but they can't get away with Vince Young being good for nothing more than two picks against a team that's less banged up than Carolina. If Jake Delhomme had been starting, I would have been surprised to see the Titans take this week's matchup.

Jacksonville has been kind of under the radar, and now that they've got Jones-Drew running, they've really got a powerful team. I won't put their game up with the Saints as an example as the Saints seem to be very fired up, but I also don't know that they've got what it'll take to unseat the Colts.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

SlowTull wrote:
The Colts did win all their games before last night but they haven't won convincingly in all of them.

This goes back to what Cavlin and Hobbes was talking about earlier in the year. Most likely Hobbes since he was always the brains behind that operation. Hobbes raised the question on strength of schedule. This was debated briefly but it apparently (and I'm guilty of this as well) is factored in to our own personal power rankings.

Going into the colts/pats game, I thought to myself the Pats will win because they've been destroying teams. The Colts have not. Yet, the Colts have won all of the games they needed to win

Thinking back to watching the game this week, the Colts this year are very different. I don't think they'll be blowing teams out like before. I'm not sure if it's cause Marvin and Addai was out for a stretch, but they just don't seem as explosive anymore.



Parallax wrote:
Dallas is a very soft 7-1 team.

I find this interesting. Dallas has destroyed the teams they've played in the NFC. I believe it's fair to say they are a very good team. Can they hang with the AFC? Not yet... no. Colts, Pats and even the Steelers can probably beat them with some regularity. But that's still top 5.


What I'm trying to say is that the Colts and Dallas were very good teams, still are very good teams, I'd put them top 5 in the league this year. The Pats beat them both. With that said, I don't think the Pats can go unbeaten. I agree that it would be nice for them to do it but I don't think they will. The season is long, bodies tire and they've proven to be human after all. Mind you it took the Colts of all teams to do it, it does remove some of that perceived invincibility. Come December, when you're the unbeaten team, every team, whether they're in the playoffs or not will want to be the one to end the streak. It's like a playoff game every week.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Fuji wrote:
I find this interesting. Dallas has destroyed the teams they've played in the NFC. I believe it's fair to say they are a very good team. Can they hang with the AFC? Not yet... no. Colts, Pats and even the Steelers can probably beat them with some regularity. But that's still top 5.


Well, I do think Dallas is a good team. I may occasionally allow some of my deep-rooted and invincible hatred for them to affect what I say...'very' soft is probably not the right way to describe them. I think they're softer than Indianapolis, Pittsburgh, or the Patriots. All the best teams from the AFC. That's going to be a real problem if Dallas does make the Superbowl...it might be hard for them to compete against the teams in the AFC.

In the NFC, I think both Dallas and the Pack (the Pack being quite a bit softer from what I've seen) are relatively soft, or softer than their 7-1 records would show.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Seeing as I can't remain objective in this dicussion (my hatred for the Patriots and Belichek knows no bounds) I'll just leave everyone with some stats. Records, Strength of Schedule, and NFL Strength of Schedule Rank (1 being the hardest, 32 being the easiest) for the top 6 teams in each conference.

Code:
New England    9 - 0   0.479     20
Indianapolis   7 - 1   0.597      3
Pittsburgh     6 - 2   0.422     27
Tennessee      6 - 2   0.500     17
Jacksonville   5 - 3   0.530     11
Cleveland      5 - 3   0.415     29
      
Dallas         7 - 1   0.439     26
Green Bay      7 - 1   0.484     19
NY Giants      6 - 2   0.415     30
Detroit        6 - 2   0.421     28
Washington     5 - 3   0.530     13
Tampa Bay      5 - 4   0.542      9


Random note: Denver has had the hardest schedule so far (0.641) and Baltimore the easist (0.354)
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The only problem with strength of schedule in the NFL is that because teams only play 16 games, teams with high winning percentages can have a strong effect on strength of schedule because of how many games they won. It is only a tool that can be used when you consider everything else--I don't think it is a stand alone stat. If we say 6-2 is a good record right now, imagine increasing that to 8-0 at this point in the season. That gives you two more wins and gives your opposition two more losses in the strength of schedule stat, which is a huge swing. So, a team that is 9-0 will almost always have a bad strength of schedule. There are anamolies of course, such as Indy, who has a high strength of schedule despite also losing only 1 game, or Clevlend having the 3rd easiest schedule and still winning 5 games. Those say something.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yeah, SoS is always a double edged sword, because if you win, the teams you played had to move down based on it. It makes it more difficult to use in any sport, really. Strength of schedule, to be decent, has to be taken with some level of subjectivity, as opposed to straight stats.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Modified SOS, with all games the team has played in taken out of the equation.

Code:
New England    9 - 0   0.547     10
Indianapolis   7 - 1   0.661      1
Pittsburgh     6 - 2   0.446     26
Tennessee      6 - 2   0.534     14
Jacksonville   5 - 3   0.552      8
Cleveland      5 - 3   0.421     29
      
Dallas         7 - 1   0.490     18
Green Bay      7 - 1   0.536     12
NY Giants      6 - 2   0.439     27
Detroit        6 - 2   0.449     25
Washington     5 - 3   0.552      8
Tampa Bay      5 - 4   0.556      6


As always, SOS is taken with a grain of salt. However, I think it says something for the Colts that they are 7-1, have the toughest SOS, and play in the best (mathematically) division in football.

Tidbit - Winning PCT by Division:
Code:

AFC South - 0.667
NFC East -  0.656
NFC North - 0.594
AFC North - 0.531
NFC South - 0.455
AFC East -  0.412
AFC West -  0.406
NFC West -  0.281
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

One thing strenght of schedule never factors in is the fact that teams themselves never get to schedule their own non-divisional games. Also, the Colts should have the toughest schedule. It's league policy that teams who make the playoffs on a consistent basis get their schedule for the next season have teams that may be tougher than the year before.

Of course, on paper the teams the Pats and Colts get for the next season may look like they'll be tough games but as the Jets and Miami has shown things sometimes don't end up the way the league likes it to end up. Last year both Miami and the Jets gave the Pats very tough games even winning some of them. If those two teams didn't self-destruct and decided they needed a a top-3 pick for the upcoming 2008 draft then there wouldn't be talk of the AFC East being a weak division.

Strenght of schedule does help coaches and players prepare before the season begins in how to approach their season. Maybe the Pats blowing out the teams in their first 8 weeks show more about just how dominant the team really has been this year and less of how weak their schedule has been. The same goes for the Colts. For a defending Super Bowl champion with dreams of repeating they've had games where they didn't wake up until the second half. I know those divisional games are always tough but the common denominator for most of them have been the Colts starting off real slow then pouring it on in the second half. Does this mean the teams they've been playing were that much tougher or were the Colts just not playing up to their abilities in the early part of the game and waiting for the second half to make adjustments.

In the end, debate about of strenght of schedule will go one forever about why one's favorite teams is much better than another despite their records but in the end the games still need to be played on Sunday or Monday and even weak teams can get enough motivation to surprise and beat a team they're not suppose to. Buffalo almost did it and every team the Bengals seem to be playing this year seem to do it on a weekly basis on the NFL's version of the Longest Yard team.
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