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Scar
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 Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:46 pm Post subject: UF Student Tasered |
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I'm only posting this because...
A. I know this guy
B. Police are friggin horrible people
C. This isn't right at all.
http://www.gainesvillesun.com/article/2007...17016/1002/NEWS
In this article, a 21 year old male by the name of Andrew Meyer was at a speech by John Kerry. Before the speech, I was at his house and he mentioned how he was going to ask Sen. Kerry a series of controversial questions. Regarding the issue of whether or not, the last few elections have been doctored / rigged and what have you.
There is a video in the link. Tell me what you think. Does it seem that he was trying to harm anyone? Self defense my ass, that was uncalled for.
I do not know what I can do, since I was not at the scene when it happened, but after watching the video, I am in full support of my friend.
I was just at this guys house for his B-day party on Saturday. This is insane!
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Calvin
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| Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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The officers never should have touched him in the first place--even senator Kerry could be heard saying that in the background. From what I understand from reading that and the video, once the police came after him, he tried to prevent them from putting handcuffs on him.
His only "fault" in the whole thing is that he resisted arrest. Even though he shouldn't have been arrested in the first place, you always comply with police officers.
But, the officers had no right to taser him though, even if we was resisting. The officers were in no danger at any time, and there's no way that 4 or 5 cops didn't have the ability to subdue a scrawny 20 year old without the use of a taser. That's disgusting to me.
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Milan Fiori
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| Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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It could have been handled better, but he flailed, pulled away, and then actually tried to run away from the police. He wasn't exactly using his head there either. It was a bad situation, and he made it worse. I can't really say too much more than that about it.
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Calvin
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| Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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He may have made it worse, but using a taser against him is an extreme use of force that was not neccesary. He shouldn't have resisted, but it isn't like he was trying to hurt the officers or anything.
In my mind, the issue here is the fact that the police attempted to detain him at all, and that they used a level of force not commensurate with the resistance they faced.
Edit: Something Interesting I found posted somewhere else:
| Quote: |
"An illegal arrest is an assault and battery. The person so attempted to
be restrained of his liberty has the same right to use force in
defending himself as he would in repelling any other assault and
battery." (State v. Robinson, 145 ME. 77, 72 ATL. 260).
"Each person has the right to resist an unlawful arrest. In such a case,
the person attempting the arrest stands in the position of a wrongdoer
and may be resisted by the use of force, as in self- defense." (State v.
Mobley, 240 N.C. 476, 83 S.E. 2d 100).
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These occured at the state level though and in different states, so they don't technically apply I guess.
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| Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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While I am a fine believer in following order and such (For instance I agreed with most/all of the Protesters at Washington being arrested because they broke the rules) this did not warrant that kind of reaction. He should have been escorted out after Kerry answered his question and possibly barred from participating in these types of events anymore.
Hopefully these police will lose their jobs at the least and at the most this kid win some suit against the city/state/whoever.
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SwissStopwatch
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| Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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Point B is a generalization that I am quite sure you could not support for all police officers. Not really the best way to start this off.
That said, from the video (which pretty much shows everything there is to see here, I would think), it's pretty clear that things should not have gone anywhere near that far. I mean, Sen. Kerry made it quite clear that he was going to answer the question, so there wasn't any need to restrain him quite like that. Given what we've seen here, I'm pretty sure the university rent-a-cops just felt like manhandling and tasering someone.
Now, granted, I don't think the student was helping matters at all either. A lot of this could've been avoided by acting in a wiser manner. The questions may have been interesting, but I don't think there was any need to ask those questions (a lot of people could answer those), especially not in the way he did. Just because the rent-a-cops felt like unnecessarily and stupidly tasering someone doesn't mean that the victim was acting in the best way possible. From what I saw there, I have a feeling that if they'd waited a few seconds there would've been a lot more justification for forcing him out of there, although probably not to the point of using the taser. |
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Scarlet Assassin
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| Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 12:29 am Post subject: |
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They went too far but that's what happens when you struggle against the police. I'm sure he was well aware that he was dealing with armed enforcement professionals. At some point in time personal responsibility has to come in to play, and when you struggle, and squirm, and continue to be an ass after you've been apprehended, you have to realize that the police are going to take things into their own hands and make you stop. He shouldn't have been shocked, but the fact remains that he's a moron and he's liable for the repercussions of his actions. I'm sorry that your friend got hurt, but he shouldn't have resisted, given the circumstance.
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Leb
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| Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 1:31 am Post subject: |
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I watched it on CNN. Guy got what he deserved.
If the police attempt to arrest you, you let them. Take it up later on, file an false arrest suit down the line if you still feel it was wrong or somehow unlawful. You don't resist arrest. |
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Scar
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| Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 1:56 am Post subject: |
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It's human nature to question things. He clearly asked for a reason why he was getting arrested. The Police had nothing to tell him, only to "subdue" him and taser him for no reason.
He did NOT get what he deserved. Are you kidding me?
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RedCydranth
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| Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 2:19 am Post subject: |
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| SwissStopWatch wrote: |
| I'm pretty sure the university rent-a-cops just felt like manhandling and tasering someone. |
I doubt that. These officers were probably lectured before on what to do if a student begins to ask over the line questions regarding politics that could result in a student uprising. These officers probably felt that this guy was crossing the line with his questions.
Senator Kerry DID say he would answer the question. But it appears as if none of the officers heard it as they were more focused on subduing him and escorting him from the premises.
I'm going to side with Scarlet Assassin on this one. When you are dealing with the police, or any law official, rent-a-cop/campus security or not you are asking for it by resisting. It was obvious that after multiple attempts to break free and screaming "Get off of me" this person was NOT going to go quietly, and that a higher force was needed. In their rulebook, it is probably warranted to subdue a person resisting arrest by use of taser. These officers were acting according to their policy.
What is under fire is NOT the tasing, but the initial offense that this kid was arrested/being removed form the room for. What did he do that warranted removal? Perhaps there were strict guidelines set to the attendees that we never saw and he broke and because of that he was being asked to leave and needed removing. I know when I attended a few school sanctioned meetings with certain political figures (Hillary Clinton for one) we were given a list of do nots upon entering. I don't recall what they were but some did seem a tad preposterous, like questioning her marriage to Bill, the whole Monica Lewinski thing and stuff like that. Questioning the idea of a voting conspiracy doesn't seem like something that would be on that list of do nots, but maybe for that occasion it was there.
Once the kid was being asked to leave he should have given up. I understand that it sort of falls into his "conspiracy theory" that he was being wisked away, but fighting it only made things worse. But I suppose it did get all of us talking about it and made him news on CNN. This kid will probably be on Larry King Live next week and be issued a statement by John Kerry apologizing and that'll be the end of it as far as we're concerned.
As Zonder pointed out, he could file claim of illegal arrest and file a lawsuit against the officers or whomever hired them and allowed them to do what they did, but that will all be done behind closed doors and most of us will not know what happens, unless Scar tells us because he's buds with him. I personally think it is too abrasive use of force as there were 6 officers on top of him at the time of the tasing.
As for his question, after he left Kerry did answer it. So, if there's the issue of whether the question crossed lines or not, apparently Kerry did not think so.
And FYI, Its tasing, not tasering. Just alerting everyone. :)
Edit: At 1:43 the student asks loudly "Why are they arresting me" and I think I hear Kerry say "Because it's an important question." Intriguing.
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Last edited by RedCydranth on Tue Sep 18, 2007 2:23 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Milan Fiori
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| Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 2:21 am Post subject: |
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A reminder that people will give their opinions on this matter, whether they are sympathetic to the situation or not. Since this has the potential to become a hot topic, and it's personal for some people, so let's keep things at a mature level. If things get out of hand, you can bet this'll get closed pretty darn fast.
Now on that note, an observation I've made in the past, and on this situation as well. People who want to demonstrate a point like this, seem to lack any sort of common sense when they're doing it. From the article posted, it says he rushed the microphone, and started shouting out demands that Kerry answer his questions. This in itself is enough to have him removed from as far as I could tell, -private- function. He was being disruptful. If he had walked out of there calmly when they first asked him too. More than likely he wouldn't have been arrested. But instead he struggled, flailed about. And honestly, from the sound of his voice, it seemed to me he knew exactly what was going on, and made a bigger scene out of it, than necessary. And in the end, anybody who's tried to hold on to someone struggling knows how easy it is to catch an elbow in the face and break a nose or otherwise get hurt. I know if I had the choice of getting hit in the face in tasering, I'd taser him as well.
Edit: And darnit Red, I'm going with tasering cause it sounds cooler.
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Leb
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| Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 11:19 am Post subject: |
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| Scar wrote: |
It's human nature to question things. He clearly asked for a reason why he was getting arrested. The Police had nothing to tell him, only to "subdue" him and taser him for no reason.
He did NOT get what he deserved. Are you kidding me? |
He refused to put his arms behind his back. He resisted them and demanded an answer as to why he was being arrested. He also asked not to be tasered, but they're going to do it if you refuse to cooperate. How did he not get what he deserved? Do you think police shouldn't be allowed to forcibly subdue someone if they refuse to follow their commands? Yeah, I see that working great.
Human nature or not, he should have known better. They tell you to put you hands behind your head, it's in your best interests to say "Yes, sir" and do it. You can fight the power later. |
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Masa
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| Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 11:31 am Post subject: |
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What joy to live live in a society where a police man can arrest a person without providing a reason and then people think that's a good thing.
You got six people holding a guy down, you don't need to taser him. He's not getting away. Especially with Jolly Donuts on top of him. Once they had him on the ground, he was no longer in a position to pose a threat to the police or to Senator Kerry.
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Calvin
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| Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 11:39 am Post subject: |
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He refused to put his arms behind his back. He resisted them and demanded an answer as to why he was being arrested. He also asked not to be tasered, but they're going to do it if you refuse to cooperate. How did he not get what he deserved? Do you think police shouldn't be allowed to forcibly subdue someone if they refuse to follow their commands? Yeah, I see that working great.
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There is something used by peace officers called the use of force model. The subject in this case was actively resisting but not being aggressive towards the officers, which calls for primary compliance techniques such as takedowns and arm/wrist locks. It does not call for the use of tasers. So, the officer's use of force excalated beyond what was needed. It isn't just about refusing to cooperate--someone who just sits down and refuses to move isn't cooperating. Its about using a level of force commensurate with the resistance you are facing. You and a few others are over-simplifying the matter.
Yeah, he probably should have just complied. But to be honest, if you read the quote in my above post, even supreme courts in various states have ruled that anybody has the right to resist an unlawful arrest, even if it is made by a peace officer.
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Archy
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| Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 11:41 am Post subject: |
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Agreed with a couple people here - if you're against the law, don't resist. you can't struggle against the police and know that you can escape unscathed - because you will be scathed, and it's not like you can escape anyway unless you planned for it.
I fought the law, and the law won. Sound familiar? Yeah, it's true.
| Milan Fiori wrote: |
| From the article posted, it says he rushed the microphone, and started shouting out demands that Kerry answer his questions. |
That's probably one of the reasons why he was taken down by the cops. In events like these, isn't it better to be calmer, more composed, and not just suddenly shouting out? I thought Kerry said he would answer the question anyway.
While the arrest is a bit foggy as to what should've been done, in terms of the tasing - I think it's fair. Against the police, come quietly in an arrest, take it up later.
That's what I'd do, anyway.
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