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Ranadiel
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 Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Beethoven4567 wrote: |
What i want in future games is diversity, for example, blacks live in deserts, and whites live in colder areas, and then they will meet and team up to face the evil forces of darkness.
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For some reason when I read this it reminded me a lot of Arc the Lad:ToS. I personally feel that that kind of plot is contrived and sort of a cop out, but that is just my opinion.
| Beethoven4567 wrote: |
I just want variety, that's all.
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I personally feel that non-human species give a much larger variety than humans with slightly different skin color. I mean could you see this conversation happening in our world?
"Hey look over there, it is a panther man."
"Yeah. Nothing interesting."
"Oh and over there is guy with slighltly darker skin."
"Oh my gosh!! He is so different from us."
| Beethoven4567 wrote: |
I know it's based on personality, so that's why i want more diversity in skin color in RPGs
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| Beethoven4567 wrote: |
The bottom line is, skin color does not matter.What matters is whether you are good or evil! So, please have more racial diversity in RPGs.
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Am I the only one who thinks these statements seem to contradict themselves.
| Beethoven4567 wrote: |
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The skin color is for geographical diversity,
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I wish you had said this earlier in the thread. If you want people to have more skin color variety to make it more believable then I would agree that that is a good idea. I personally am not going to advocate it myself, but it does make sense.
| SARSadmin wrote: |
A problem with this is that Japanese people are generally unaware that there are any tensions between white people and black people elsewhere in the world. Thus, making a game where ｔhe plot is based on the white/black ethnic divide will not really have much impact towards a Japanese audience (there is no historical backdrop that predisposes people to such understanding). It's sort of like making a game that centers on a Korean hero romantically involved with a Japanese girl and having to deal with all the ethnic tensions betwene the two nations. Such a game will not be appreciated much in the USA, because people in the USA generally don't know how deep-rooted the ethnic divide is netween Korean and Japanese people. The game won't sell (based only on that premise).
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I didn't know about the Japanese and Korean divide, but I guess that sort of proves your point doesn't it? As such you couldn't really do a reality based cultural clash and expect it to do well everywhere.However for some reason people seem to have no problems understanding the racial issues when it involves antros, elves, dwarves, orcs, or other fantasy creature. I guess that those are more universal because there is a larger difference in physical traits.
Oh and I was thinking about it and there are a few more black characters than you have mentioned(they are still in the minority but it is a little better than you said). The ones that have come to mind immediatly are Wallace from Growlanser 1 and 2 and Harid from Romancing SaGa 3. I have done a bit of looking around and found a little more. Romancing SaGa 3 also had Shonen and Herman/Black. Karn from Breath of Fire(if my memory serves correctly) is supposed to be black although he looks somewhere between middle-eastern and black. There were two in FFT, but I can't remember their names. In Harvest Moon 64 and Back to Nature(alright they aren't exactly RPGs) the fisherman is black. I'm sure if I spent a little more time looking I could find a few more, but this will do for now.
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Vextor
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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The issues with tensions common in fantasy games, such as the elves/dwarves, etc is that these are widely known plot devices within the fantasy RPG genre across the world. Most of these come solely from the work of JRR Tolkein, and have been copied and re-copied. If you like RPGs, you will likely have been exposed to these plot-devices. Tolkein's ideas were embraced by the popular Dungeons & Dragons TRPG, as well as earlier computer RPGs such as Wizardry.
Interesting to note is that despite the Haradrims being a major enemy force within ROTK (they have "darker skin" and called "men of the east"), that fact was not explroed very much at all in the movies, nor in most any other games and TRPGs that borrow lots of stuff from Tolkein. This may be an intentional or unintentional omission on the part of those who borrowed the ideas, especially if it was in the USA. Game companies traditionally don't take huge risks when it comes to dealing with controversial subjects. This has more to do with the relative artistic freedom game developers having within the framework of game developing companies (especially the bigger ones). Even if a developer wants to make such games, they have a good chance of being stopped by executives, or other departments (such as sales or marketing).
Last edited by Vextor on Sun Apr 10, 2005 8:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Horned Loa
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Ranadiel wrote: |
| I personally feel that non-human species give a much larger variety than humans with slightly different skin color. I mean could you see this conversation happening in our world? |
Actually yea, you're right here. The single species themselves give the game FAR more diversity than skin color ever could. In Suikoden for example we already have the Karaya Clan featured as Dark Skinned, as well as Bob's whole village (which unfortunately has been destroyed) not to mention Hauser and even all the Wingers if you really look at it. They all seem darker skinned. However that all pales in comparison to the REAL racial diversity which in fact would be Elves, Dwarves, Wingers, Kobolds, Nekobolds, Humans and the like, not to mention that humans themselves are SPLIT into several different groups such as Ninja, Dragon Riders, Gunners...etc, so even a game such as Suikoden gets that has a load of characters has only enough to make a few characters of a certain race. Try and compare the number of Black people to the number of Elves, Kobolds, Dragon Riders or Ninja for example. There were a few in the games but no more than about 5-6 all up even though these can be categorized as actual CLASSES and used in combat. A black and white person cannot really use their skin color in the games.
Another point I just realized is that there is PLENTY of racial diversity in games so far, for example Barrett of Final Fantasy VII, Harid from Romancing SaGa 3, Kiros in Final Fantasy VIII, Wakka in FFX seemed to be "Hawaiian" as did his entire Tribe and the Kilika Island Tribe was also from a similar region, the three main characters in the game (Tidus, Yuna and Rikku) look distinctly Asian if you look a the cut scenes (I'll come back to this point in a minute but keep in mind I made it here**), then there is Fresca and Tempest from Lunar: SSSC who happen to be "Native American", and Helmer in Xenosaga is decidedly black. I mean I'm just making a list here off the top of my head but I believe I'm getting my point across....there are a few Black people within the RPG gaming scene (and this is JUST RPGSs here, I'm not counting fighting games, shoot them ups or any other genre that seem to be loaded with black characters in recent years).
To go back to the Tidus, Yuna and Rikku look.....it is undeniable that in appearance when you saw an Asian, Black and a White man standing one next to another the Black man would stand out as different, simply because the skin tones are that different. I believe that FAR more characters APPEAR white to us simply because of the graphics. Tidus and Cloud make two excellent examples. We cannot see that cloud looks Asian in a wa but when I saw a trailer for Advent Children, I noticed that he does have that look about him (even though he is blond, but then again there are characters with blue, green and purple hair so we can let that one slide).
Its not just games but anime cartoons as well that have adopted this trait. More popular examples such as Naruto, Dragon Ball Z/GT, Evangaleon, Ninja Scroll, Vampire Hunter D....and many more showcase characters that distinctly look white, where as that is the way Japanese creators draw Japanese characters. I mean just think of where they are located and you'll get the idea. I feel that the Asian skin color is misinterpreted for a white character in a lot of RPGs even in Suikoden in some cases.
| Ranadiel wrote: |
| Am I the only one who thinks these statements seem to contradict themselves. |
No Rana, haha, I think you've made it clear to everyone here that those two are quite different views to one another. I believe it is crucial for people to re-read their posts before making new ones as a lot of stuff is getting repeated here and it would serve them best not to counter their own statements when arguing a point haha, unless of course you wish to change your perspective on the whole situation. |
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Timbo
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Black Fang wrote: |
No Rana, haha, I think you've made it clear to everyone here that those two are quite different views to one another. I believe it is crucial for people to re-read their posts before making new ones as a lot of stuff is getting repeated here and it would serve them best not to counter their own statements when arguing a point haha, unless of course you wish to change your perspective on the whole situation. |
So says the guy who said this:
| Black Fang wrote: |
| I've noticed a lot of movies that came out in the past few years just got sooo repetitive in terms of action and humor that it really gives me little joy in going to the cinemas unless its a movie that I've anxiously been waiting for....and those are rare nowadays. I just don't want to see them do the same to games and IF a black character is crucial to the story then add him/her, otherwise, stick with the guy that'll make it flow the best. |
Immediately followed by this:
| Black Fang wrote: |
I always look strangely at people when they say this because WHY SHOULD we experiment and try something new when what we have right here works. For example....thus far switching to 3D in Suikoden took away its 2D charm and the sequels never felt as good as the originals
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How is not wanting repetition in games and then saying that you don't want peopel to try something new and to stick to what currently works not contradictive?
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Marshmallow
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Beethoven4567 wrote: |
Why blacks? Because there are already lots of whites as heroes in JRPGs, so i want something different that makes me respect Japan and its people 1,000 times more. I just want variety, that's all. I don't hate whites, it's just that there are too much of them in JRPGs, that's all.
Below is my proof:
Playable Characters in JRPGs that are white-skinned:
Squall, Rinoa, Seifer, Zell, Laguna, Cloud, Tifa, Aeris, Quistis, Cid, Selphie, Yuffie, Zidane, Garnet, Steiner, Tidus, Lulu, Auron, Rikku, Yuna, Paine, Lucia, Millenia, Tir, Riou, Elena, Ryudo, Roan, Justin, Feena, Sue, Sierra Mikain, Claude Kenni, Rena Lanford, Celine Jules, Fayt Leingod, Cliff Fittir, Nel Zelpher, Mirage, Sophia, Shion Uzuki, and many more
Playable Charcters in JRPGs that has black-skin:
Hugo, Barret, Lucia, |
Samus, Hauser, Bob, Hiro, Alia, Piccolo, Brad, Darc, Bruiser Khang, chaos, Max, Meredy, Chat, Cray, Macha, Korcha, Orcha, Mel, Kiros, Hallec, Beecham, Jimba, Wakka
I'm sure there's more. I love how you just completely brushed over dark skinned characters from games where above you listed white characters. Surely you hadn't forgotten them.
| Quote: |
That's 40-[s]3[/s]26. I hope that in the future like in 2012, the ratio will be 80 whites and 40 blacks. We've already had a lot of whites in RPGs, so why not have a little bit more blacks? The bottom line is, i'm not wanting more blacks in RPGs because i am black and want my race represented more, but because i want to see some difference and variety that will give us a satisfying and universally heartwarming and refreshing new RPG that will touch the hearts of many gamers around the world that lives in 6 continents. The fact that i am a light-skinned man is proof enough that i am not racist, but just wants something different from Japan. Melanin is what causes dark skin. In Malaysia, Chinese, Malays, and dark-skinned Indians mingle around like buddies. That's what i want to see in future JRPGs- more interracial interaction that features messages that you must never discriminate or hate or abhor someone just because he or she is of a different skin color. I want more multi-racial parties in future JRPGs, not all black-parties in JRPGs. Finally, i want more diversity and not the majority RPG characters to be white or black. Just mix 3 blacks, 3 whites, and 2-4 non-humans( this is an example ). So, i want a multi-racial party for more fun, humor, and intigue :P . |
I apologize for my seeming harsh, but I really don't understand how more diversity in RPGs will help in humor, fun and intrigue. The way you've stated things, you care more about aesthetics than actual character personality, as if you solely want to have your race superficially represented in videogames. I listed for you a whole lot more dark-skinned characters, and what I'm trying to prove is that they aren't as scarce as you think, and oftimes their appearances actually make sense. For example, Tales of Eternia, great game. There is an entire planet of nothing but dark-skinned characters. In fact, in that game the ratio of skin color characters, if you care about it so much, is a whopping 4 whites to 3 blacks (only 3 of the white characters being permanent party members anyway). Another "interesting" example would be in the PS1 game Revolutions: Persona, where a character by the name of Mike was white in the Japanese release, and black in the US one. The sad thing about this is that this change may be partially due to the fact that the character acts very "ghetto" in the beginning of the game. However, he begins to form his own unique personality later on. My personal feelings on the subject are that I have no problems with dark-skinned characters in games, so long as they actually make sense to be in them. Just dropping black party members into an RPG for aesthetic purposes, and/ or to appease people with your mindset is, to me, pointless because it makes little to no sense. Games like Suikoden III and Tales of Eternia that can pull of diverse environments that actually have a purpose have my applause.
A little interesting fact, as well, people have noted Barret from FFVII to act very stereotypically, however when I think of Barret (who in actuality I wouldn't find to be offensive whatsoever seeing as how he's really a very concerned and noble character, and easily my favorite character in FFVII) I'm reminded of my father (who is in fact, white) partially due to the foul-mouthed manner of speaking and such, but moreso due to his tough shell, but inner kindheartedness and nobility. |
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Milan Fiori
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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It seems to me that the first quote of Black Fang's was talking more about plot and the storyline while the second was talking about game graphics and other fundementals. You can want things to stay the way but be new at the same time. I mean take the two Romeo and Juliet movies, one done in the 1960's and another done in the 90's. They are the same thing, just ones done in a way to make it more entertaining to people. This example though is backwards to what I was talking about but still works. Basically what I'm trying to say is the things can stay mostly the same but little twists and tweaks can be made so they won't be repetetive and boring.
I'm not sure if my post made any sense but um yeah! It's the truth and I'm sticking with it!
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Horned Loa
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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@ Timbo: Well first of all you are comparing apples and oranges there (aka movies and games). Clearly there is a difference...usually in the form of about 20-40 hours. The argument about the movies was to place emphasis on people saying "Why should we do this" which can always be countered with "Why should we not do this?" and vice versa. You've taken that sentence and focused on the wrong part of it. It was there to prove an entirely different point.
The other thing to that I did not mention as, I thought no clarification was necessary, is that movies consist of different genres just like games, however here we are concentrating on one of the aspects of RPGs that seems to have worked for years now and it is still something that makes for successful gaming, where as I was mostly complaining about the lack of GOOD comedic scenes. Most of the modern "accidental" humor in movies is getting very stale very fast and it is becoming harder and harder for movie producers to pull off. I've go nothing against good comedies except the OVERUSE of a single type of joke and a mass flooding of the comedic films hitting the market. I've got nothing against comedies, and even the accidental comedies can be funny, but the same jokes have been SERRIOUSLLY overused in the last few years unlike the story and characters of the modern day RPGs.
The whole point of this discussion is that, well I for one really feel that, having a black character as the hero should NOT take priority over the actual storyline. If a black character just happens to be the best for the actual story (such as Hugo in Suikoden III who I believe is the UNOFFICIAL main character) then so be it, but I believe it is not worth sacrificing the story just for the sake of one little change. |
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Beethoven4567
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| Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 9:06 am Post subject: |
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I want more blacks in RPGs for something different. For example, in this game, there are 3 blacks, 3 whites, and 2 non-humans in the party. You all said it's all about personality. Fine. Do you guys seriously think that blacks don't have any personality? Blacks and whites are humans, and either side can be good or evil. As long as blacks are in an JRPG, i don't care who are the good guys or bad guys based on skin color but on their personality and motives. The way you all are talking inplies that i am pro-black, and that's very wrong!
For example, if in the future, there are African game companies from either Zimbabwe, Nigeria, Uganda or Kenya( just to name a few African nations ), and these African game companies make RPGs that feature an all black party and an all black world, i would be pissed off too, because there are no whites in the game. So, it goes both ways. If an African-made RPG does not have any whites in it, i would think that they ignored whites and do not have a global and diverse outlook on things, and i would conclude that they discriminated against white-skinned people.
What i want is for both blacks and white-skinned characters to be playable in your party, not for pro-black or pro-white sentiments, but based on the game world where there are black-skinned characters living in deserts, and you meet them and 3 black characters important to the plot joins your party. By black, i mean charcoal black, like people in Africa, not cocoa-dark, like Suiko 3's Hugo. Again i will say, if an African game maker makes an RPG that don't have any white people in it, i will be pissed off, because they only placed importance on people that has the same skin color as them, and not whites. If i am African, i will make RPGs that star a white as the hero, and there will be both blacks and whites in the party. It's cool to have a variety of skin color! :mrgreen: Both blacks and whites can be cool if they have a cool personality. The bottom line is, skin color does not determine whether you are good or bad, it's your personality and actions that determines your innocence or evilness. Helmer is a good example of a good and polite black, unfortunately he's not playable.
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Horned Loa
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| Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 10:13 am Post subject: |
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| Beethoven4567 wrote: |
| You all said it's all about personality. Fine. Do you guys seriously think that blacks don't have any personality? |
Please do not put words in our moth as none of us said nor thought that blacks don't have a personality. All we said is that making the main character BLACK just because you want them to be black would most likely result in a crappy game. The only time I'd want to see a black man as a hero in an RPG would be when the lead role was MADE to fit a black character. Once again I'll refer you to movies, Blade for example would NEVER have looked as good if a white guy was the lead character. Morpheus in the Matrix was IDEALY picked and I can't really see a white guy playing him better. Characters like Luke Skywalker, Indiana Jones and Hannibal Lector were perfect as white characters and all movies would have more than likely sucked if they were presented as black people. I'm against pushing for a black character simply because they are in the minority. If a certain role comes up in a certain story that would best be told through the eyes of a black person than so be it. Another good RPG I'd probably buy.
| Beethoven4567 wrote: |
| Blacks and whites are humans, and either side can be good or evil. As long as blacks are in an JRPG, I don't care who are the good guys or bad guys based on skin color but on their personality and motives. The way you all are talking implies that I am pro-black, and that's very wrong! |
I do not recall anyone saying that black people are evil and white people good but that comment just proves that you see them under that stereo-type. It is a stereotype brought on by the music, movies and the media, however most people here and many RPG gamers in general seen to be smart enough not to believe what TV shows all the time and take it as the absolute truth. I apologize if I sound harsh but you DO come off as pro-black because you are arguing they should be in RPG games for the WRONG REASONS! Read your posts and try to visualize it from another viewpoint. It'll give you a better perspective of why we've been arguing what we have.
| Beethoven4567 wrote: |
| For example, if in the future, there are African game companies from either Zimbabwe, Nigeria, Uganda or Kenya( just to name a few African nations ), and these African game companies make RPGs that feature an all black party and an all black world, I would be pissed off too, because there are no whites in the game. So, it goes both ways. If an African-made RPG does not have any whites in it, I would think that they ignored whites and do not have a global and diverse outlook on things, and I would conclude that they discriminated against white-skinned people. |
WHY? Why would you be pissed off at this? I mean if the game was good enough, I'd buy it and if it wasn't I would turn a blind eye to the game and possibly the company producing the game. I and I do believe the rest of the members that come here (apologies for speaking in everyone's name but I do believe most of you feel the same way here) do not buy or play games based on the skin color of the characters it features. Games are and should remain about the story, character DEVELOPMENT, music, graphics, replay value and ease of control, but more than anything ABOUT FUN!!! There simply is NO NEED for racial equality nor any other kind of equality within the games.
| Beethoven4567 wrote: |
| What I want is for both blacks and white-skinned characters to be playable in your party, not for pro-black or pro-white sentiments, but based on the game world where there are black-skinned characters living in deserts, and you meet them and 3 black characters important to the plot joins your party. By black, i mean charcoal black, like people in Africa, not cocoa-dark, like Suiko 3's Hugo. Again i will say, if an African game maker makes an RPG that don't have any white people in it, i will be pissed off, because they only placed importance on people that has the same skin color as them, and not whites. If i am African, i will make RPGs that star a white as the hero, and there will be both blacks and whites in the party. It's cool to have a variety of skin color! |
You seem to push for this equality in RPGs but WHY? Personally I'd HATE to play one RPG after another where the races are always nicely and equally balanced. I believe that THE RIGHT black character such as Barrett in FFVII can add that special charm just because he is in the minority. If a game such as that comes out and it seemed like a fun game then I'd definitely go for it and I believe many others would but basing a game over something so minute is simply illogical.
| Beethoven4567 wrote: |
| Both blacks and whites can be cool if they have a cool personality. The bottom line is, skin color does not determine whether you are good or bad, it's your personality and actions that determines your innocence or evilness. Helmer is a good example of a good and polite black, unfortunately he's not playable. |
Who the heck said Blacks were evil??? Some of the most twisted villains are white: Luca Blight, Windy, Luc, Sephiroth, Kefka.... I really don't understand what you want out of this and more importantly WHY? I mean...would you be satisfied if one RPG came out with equal numbers of Asians, Whites and Blacks or would you want EVERY single RPG to be that equal? I've nothing against a single game coming out that has equal numbers of characters within each race as long as its a crucial part of the story but if they did so to every RPG I'd eventually get bored and stop buying RPG games altogether as they would get too repetitive, simply to accommodate for that one little detail. |
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Aurelien
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| Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 10:21 am Post subject: |
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| Beethoven4567 wrote: |
| Do you guys seriously think that blacks don't have any personality? |
Nope, we simply said that it's all about personality to show that we don't care whether the character is black or white, because what matters is their personality, and not their skin color. On the other hand, you want black characters just for the sake of having characters with different skin color (so that you could have racial diversity).
| Beethoven4567 wrote: |
| As long as blacks are in an JRPG, i don't care who are the good guys or bad guys based on skin color but on their personality and motives. The way you all are talking inplies that i am pro-black, and that's very wrong! |
O__O It doesn't really make sense for you to not be pro-black (or white or whatever) but you pushing so hard for the appearance of black (or white or whatever) characters. If you're not pro-black (or white or whatever), then you shouldn't have cared on what skin color the characters are. Yet, you care.
| Beethoven4567 wrote: |
| For example, if in the future, there are African game companies from either Zimbabwe, Nigeria, Uganda or Kenya( just to name a few African nations ), and these African game companies make RPGs that feature an all black party and an all black world, i would be pissed off too, because there are no whites in the game. |
Seriously, what's so wrong with having an all-black RPGs? As long as it fits the story, I don't mind at all to have an all-black RPGs.
| Beethoven4567 wrote: |
| If an African-made RPG does not have any whites in it, i would think that they ignored whites and do not have a global and diverse outlook on things, and i would conclude that they discriminated against white-skinned people. |
Okay, I don't want to sound rude, but you're close-minded. It's really ridiculous for you to conclude that they discriminate certain race based on a freakin video game. It's a video game for God's sake, not Politically Correct 101 subject. Not every game must have all the races in the world, dude. The way you put it showed that you want to have different races just for the sake of being politically correct. You don't care what the game is about, because you'd consider them as racist just because they don't include a certain race in the game. That just doesn't make sense. 100% rubbish.
Say I create a game that doesn't take place in a desert at all. In fact, say that I create a game that takes place in North Pole, so all of my game's characters are eskimos because well ... they live there (with penguins, fishies, and polar bears). Am I racist now because I don't include a black dude from a desert? Am I racist now because I don't include a Chinese Kung Fu Master there? Am I racist now because I don't include a Brazilian Capoeira specialist? Am I racist because I don't include a Hawaiian surfer? No, I'm not.
| Beethoven4567 wrote: |
| What i want is for both blacks and white-skinned characters to be playable in your party, not for pro-black or pro-white sentiments, but based on the game world where there are black-skinned characters living in deserts, and you meet them and 3 black characters important to the plot joins your party |
So what happens if the game doesn't include a desert area? So far, "desert" is your only reason on why black characters should appear.
| Beethoven4567 wrote: |
| By black, i mean charcoal black, like people in Africa, not cocoa-dark, like Suiko 3's Hugo. |
Hmm .. so the Arabic people who live in deserts don't count either because they're not charcoal black .... joy.
| Beethoven4567 wrote: |
| If i am African, i will make RPGs that star a white as the hero, and there will be both blacks and whites in the party. |
Seriously, you just want to sound like you're different. It's irrelevant whether you're African, Malaysian, Chinese, Argentinian, or French. You create the hero to suit the storyline, not for the sake of being politically correct or being "different".
| Beethoven4567 wrote: |
| Both blacks and whites can be cool if they have a cool personality. |
You've said it numerous times that skin color doesn't matter. But you kept on expecting variety to occur. It's like this:
Me: Do you want fried egg or poached egg?
You: Doesn't matter as long as it's egg.
Me: Okay, I serve you fried egg.
I ask you the same question for 30 days, and you kept on giving me the same answer that it doesn't matter as long as it's egg. Since I'm better at making fried egg than poached egg, I kept on serving you fried egg. But in the end, you're complaining that I kept on serving you fried egg. In the end, it's your fault for saying that it doesn't matter as long as it's egg. If you want poached egg, say you want poached egg.
So don't say that skin color doesn't matter to you when you kept on saying that you want variety in characters' skin color. Skin color obviously matters to you. You even judge game developers based on the skin color of the video game characters that they released. If that showed how you don't care about skin color, I believe Prince Charles is marrying Britney Spears next month.
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Ranadiel
The Squirrel Mob
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| Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Some awesome guy wrote: |
Karn from Breath of Fire(if my memory serves correctly) is supposed to be black although he looks somewhere between middle-eastern and black.
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I just remembered what the deal with Karn is. In the Japanese version he was some shade of gray(I think it was supposed to be black). However in the American version they recolored him to avoid stereotypes since he is a theif. The only reson I know this is becuase he appears in 2 on an island and they didn't recolor him then.
| Beethoven4567 wrote: |
I want more blacks in RPGs for something different.
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Have you not been paying attention to the past few posts? We have been listing off characters that are black. They aren't as rare as people believe simply because most people just don't think about them. In fact when I get home from school today I am going to look through my game collection to see if I can find any more.
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For example, if in the future, there are African game companies from either Zimbabwe, Nigeria, Uganda or Kenya( just to name a few African nations ), and these African game companies make RPGs that feature an all black party and an all black world, i would be pissed off too, because there are no whites in the game.
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As long as the game itself was good I think that this would be an interesting game. In fact I would love to play such a game to see how well it is done. However I doubt that this will happen during my lifetime.
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By black, i mean charcoal black,
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I don't think I have ever seen anyone this dark. Do people even have skin this dark? If you are going to use such an absolute standard of skin color than I suppose that you might be right about the lack of blacks, but that seems to be going a bit to far since their are other skin tones that are considered black as well.
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It's cool to have a variety of skin color!
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I maintain my stance that having different species in your part is infinitly cooler than different skin colors. They can have the same party pynamics as people with different skin colors, but there is more freedom in appearance and and it also make different perspectives on issues more interesting. For example a long lived elf is going to have a much different opinion than an antro who is shunned by humans and has the same life expectancy as a human. Really the only difference between diversity by skin colors and species is that with species the characters can have much more interesting appearances and in some cases more unusual opinions.
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The bottom line is, skin color does not determine whether you are good or bad, it's your personality and actions that determines your innocence or evilness.
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Yes, and as such it doesn't make a difference one way or the other of the characters skin color.
| Sir Black Fang wrote: |
I do not recall anyone saying that black people are evil and white people good
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If my memory serves me correctly I believe he might have made a comment similar to that in regards to a possible world(if I am wrong I apologize), but I otherwise am unaware of anyone else who has said anything like that. I would go check for that comment, but it would be on the last page and I don't have time to go look it up at the moment.
| Sir Black Fang wrote: |
I and I do believe the rest of the members that come here (apologies for speaking in everyone's name but I do believe most of you feel the same way here) do not buy or play games based on the skin color of the characters it features. Games are and should remain about the story, character DEVELOPMENT, music, graphics, replay value and ease of control, but more than anything ABOUT FUN!!!
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I agree with you 100% here Sir Balck Fang, and I don't think i could have put it better.
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kuwaizair
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| Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Beethoven4567 wrote: |
By black, i mean charcoal black, like people in Africa, not cocoa-dark, like Suiko 3's Hugo. Again i will say, if an African game maker makes an RPG that don't have any white people in it, i will be pissed off, because they only placed importance on people that has the same skin color as them, and not whites. If i am African, i will make RPGs that star a white as the hero, and there will be both blacks and whites in the party. It's cool to have a variety of skin color! :mrgreen: Both blacks and whites can be cool if they have a cool personality. The bottom line is, skin color does not determine whether you are good or bad, it's your personality and actions that determines your innocence or evilness. . |
OH true, but if you give the black guy the wrong personality, ike "omg hes to mean" or "why is the black guy playing the part of the trickster-theif? why isn't he the nobleman-wizard?"
also, Hugo "being black" I took also has being more or less "red skinned", meaning hes not African, hes could be from 'the Americas", there are variations on skin tone when you say "black" so now we have "oh he won't do, hes' not black enough, hes to brown, hes to red", this is what you want now?
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If game producers were to focus on putting 'colored' characters in their games then they would be further promoting stereotypes because we as gamers would see the character, the 'colored' character, and say to ourselves: "Is this character mexican, arabian, african american?" And then we'd say: "Well, that's not how those people act!". |
i take the litteral key word here is "suppose to be" right? regardless of how much we know about "suikoden world" show me where Mexico is again? Show me where America is again in any Final fantasy. Sure there is "supose to bes" and then there are "is", I posted once "suikoverse-to ours" where we devulge "who is supose to be whom" like "Zexen is Germany" (But the Karyans dress in Hungarian outfits? They cannot be Native Americans then!?, but they live in tents and worship sprits?) anway yes, how can we have a Mexican in a game when there is none, sure they have a toned skin, but MEXICAN is not a race, its an ethnicity, besides you say Mexican and I could be thinking "Aztec" not, "somone who's ancestors came form Spain". Also saying African American, is almost on the same line. They are "African" by decent or move, but are living in "America" I could complain that Canada has no "African Americans", because "they have Canadian-Africans", somtimes putting -american can mean "mixed decent".
On that note, why stop? what bout people with "Olive Complections"? (Mediterrianina right?) the feel left out to....no?
or albinos, dude I want a game where I get to play an albino.(ok not a race or ethnicity, but its differnt)
as the Admin said, if you want a game with heroic Black characters you'll need to make it in America, if the race problem ins one in Japan, why is it their problem because "they are making the games"? its ours.
somone mentiond having "disabled charas" well see, you need to take into account how disabled and the world they live in, if we have a "tradtional" fantasy world, they'd won't be having adventures in a wheel chair, for many reasons. take into consideration medical technology and their culture. some cutures may treat them harshly, such as broken castaways and sub human, because they are a blind-deaf-mute, or retarted. sure heart of gold, but I don't think a retarted character or one with downs syndrom is going to save the world from some evil warlock, unless their "heart of gold and unbiased sight kills them", i mean we're playing him, so giving him a mental handycap would be MOOT. He wasn't the guy you got to be, but I think Ildon from Saga Frontier was blind, and a swordsman, even if he wasy 'from the Mystic race" (i take being what they are it would be no prolbem) but, I can't see Alex from Lunar pushing himself along with a wheel chair, or having some horrible illness that limmits capablities.
people need to be beaten with a race-class-gender book *has bad flashbacks*
(it could be my imaganation, but Straybow from Live-alive looked pretty brownish, but he was mislead and "villian like" so he won't count.)
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Arcana
The Engineers
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| Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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This horse is so dead, people. I can't believe I actually read this entire last page of responses.
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Beethoven4567
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| Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:56 am Post subject: |
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The reason why i want a lot of characters with different skin colors is for diversity and eye-candy purposes only. For humans, i want characters ranging from charcoal black to pale white. As for non-humans, they can be red, grey, green or whatever color. You don't seem to understand why i want a multiskincolored game. It's not for being politically correct but to add variety to the appearances of characters in the game while their personality will be decided on by the game makers.
Suikoden 3 was the only game to feature a hell of a lot of dark characters, although the Karayans are cocoa. You must understand that in our world, prejudices do happen based on skin color. For example, here in Malaysia, there are lots of crimes involving Africans, but that doesn't mean that all Africans are bad.(wink! Arc The Lad:TOTS anyone ) But sadly, there are those that have to think badly of Africans just because of the acts of a few individuals. The bottom line is, i want an RPG that has both blacks and whites as playable characters, for eye candy. I like God because he creates us all having different skin colors! It's more lively to have diverse and different looking humans! Dogs, birds, cats, all have different colors. That's why i want more multicolored characters in RPGs, to make us feel it relates to our planet, but at the same time also have fantasy characters like elves and a fairies. It's more of an eye candy and variety issue than a racial issue. Thre is a difference between skin color, race, nationality, political perspective; religion, and culture. Like for example, you may be black, but what form of government do you like? Monarchy, democracy, theocracy, or communist? What is your nationality? What religion you practice? So, i just want skin color for fun and variations. :D
If i meet an alien from outer space that looks like a lizard (like Dupa and Bazba), i will see whether he is good or bad. If he's good. than he's cool. But if he starts ray-gunning everybody, than he's bad. The skin color thingy is to have diversity among human characters, that's all. If i make an RPG, i will make sure that characters ranging from charcoal black to pale white are in the game. Then they will all team up to fight the evil that threatens the world (i'm planning to write a fiction like that ), and good will triumph against every odd. Peace to all mankind, and may diversity bring love, not conflict and prejudice. Have a nice day, all Suikofans! :mrgreen:
PS: Do you think that having a Masters in Business Administartion would be enough to start up a game company? I could always hire software developers, programmers and IT experts to develop the games for my company.
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Aurelien
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| Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 5:19 am Post subject: |
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| Beethoven4567 wrote: |
| The reason why i want a lot of characters with different skin colors is for diversity and eye-candy purposes only. |
Then how come you even dare to conclude that the (hypothetical) African RPG developer as discriminating white people just because they don't feature white people in the game? If the role of the skin color variety was simply for diversity and eye-candy purpose, your reaction would only be "Ah, this game doesn't have much variety in the characters' skin color, it's boring". Yet, your reaction was to condemn them as racists.
| Beethoven4567 wrote: |
| You must understand that in our world, prejudices do happen based on skin color |
We do understand that. What you must understand is that RPG is meant to be a game because it's a video game, not real life.
| Beethoven4567 wrote: |
| It's more of an eye candy and variety issue than a racial issue. |
If it's only for eye candy and variety issue, then you're not going to come up with good quality product. You'd end up creating black, white, green, red, yellow, brown, blue skinned characters just for the sake of having eye candy and variety of skin color rather than having a reason on why such characters are needed in the game.
| Beethoven4567 wrote: |
| If i make an RPG, i will make sure that characters ranging from charcoal black to pale white are in the game. |
Congratulations, you'd end up with a freak show kind of game that no one would want to play because they can't relate to such thing. Wow, a place where ALL different kind of human races, and non-human races live in ONE same place peacefully. x_x Look, the main character is black, but he has a white lover just because we have no white character yet. Then his best friend is yellow because we don't have yellow character yet. Ooh, his mother can be green so that we have all colors, etc.
| Beethoven4567 wrote: |
| PS: Do you think that having a Masters in Business Administartion would be enough to start up a game company? I could always hire software developers, programmers and IT experts to develop the games for my company. |
You don't even need a degree to start up a game company. You need money, lots of money, and simply hire everyone with your lots of money. You can even hire someone with Masters in Business Administration to replace you if you want to. It's mostly about the money.
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