The Myth of Islamophobia?

[Sniper_Zegai]

Hi everyone.

I have been wondering about this for awhile and this is mainly about the spread of Islam in Europe and Britian, and specifically about the spread of Islamic laws in Europe, which I'm kind of worried about. Anyway I watch this guys videos on youtube, he's against religion but this is'nt an athiest vs. religion debate or a "lets bash Islam" debate, this is just a debate about whether its racist or phobic to be fearful of the spread of Islam and I think this guy makes some good points. He also talks about vote mongering politicians making allowances for Islamic people that would have landed anyone else in jail becuase its worth a strong vote. As a result the right to protest has been witheld in Belgium by the mayor in case the Islamic community is "offended". Just for reference Ive got his vids here, he includes links to more information on his videos so you can read into them. You dont have to watch them to participate in this thread if you already have a strong opinion about Islam.

The trouble with Islam: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhN6CG1zCRc
Why are we friends with Saudi Arabia?: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fm8IuR2VF3M
Am I a Racist?: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1ZLXbKeL2U
The myth of Islamophobia: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HR9LVf_KMO0
Islam in Europe: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nI5WoXpmPiM&mode=user&search=

Anyway the line that did it for me was

[Timbo]

I think you need to make a distinction between the Islam religion and Islamic states. Not all countries with Islam as the dominant religion are as extreme as you state and many countries that have a majority of Islamic citizens don't identify themselves as an Islamic state as it is not in the laws. You switch between talks of spreading Islam and of spreading Islamic law (Which I assume you are defining as the laws of 'Islamic states", such as Iran, Pakistan and Afghanistan), but these are two drastically different things.
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"There is no normal life, there's just life. Now get on with it"

[Sniper_Zegai]

Well yeah.

Islamic law is based on rules and laws set out by Islam as a religion, maybe not all states are as bad as Pakistan, Iran and Afghanistan but in Italy, Belgium and Germany. Laws are being bent to appease the Islamic community when anyone else would be arrested. This seems to be the first signs of Islamic law rearing its ugly head and its not like these are simply harmless exceptions. Pilagamy and Savage beatings are being turned a blind eye to. A father and brother of a young woman even plotted and eventually carried out a murder and called it an "honor killing" this happened in Britian so they were obviously tossed straight into jail like the murderers they are, but with the allowances being made in Europe, Its a little worrying.
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[Calvin]

The terrible things you mention will never be widely accepted by Western society in our lifetimes. Its an irrational fear because most nations have laws stating that not even religion can override a person's basic human rights. Sure, maybe you'll see men with multiple wives in some countries, but you won't see things like forced genital mutilation or murder go unpunished.

It just won't happen.
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I changed the number on my phone so you can't call me up at home, and you can't say those
things to me, that make me fall down on my knees.

[Leb]

What does genital mutilation or murder have to do with laws in predominantly Muslim nations? I'm not exactly certain about the former (I've never researched it), but murder is certainly a punishable crime in those nations. I don't see how the former wouldn't be. Human rights are also protected, though some nations are better at protecting them than others. Just like with everybody else.

I'm not sure if any of you have watched the War Within on CNN. It's overdramatic, like all CNN specials on Islam, but you see a lot of footage with Muslims and Muslim leaders who are horrified by how fundamentalists are becoming the face of Islam in Europe and the world. There's one part where one of the guys tells his congregation to go out and be good neighbors and show people there's nothing sinister about them. One of those feel-good moments.

The underlying cause of "Islamophobia" is the belief that Islam is somehow encroaching upon the west. That's it.

[Flare]

I think that part of it is the fear of the unknown, too. How much do people actually know about Islam? Not much. One of my major pet peeves is when people act like Allah is a separate deity altogether. It's just the Arabic word for God, people! Are we going to condemn the hispanics for worshipping Dios, too? I bet not. I think that if people took the time to actually do research and understand the religion and the history behind it and the fighting between the Shiites, Sunnis, and Kurds, they wouldn't react the same way that they do now.
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The immortal chickens shall rule the world!!

[Calvin]

[No_Brain]

I'm sort of lost on what the debate's on about. No offense Sniper Zegai but first you talk about a lack of rights that would come with Islam and then you say that people are getting away with crimes which generally would not be tolerated. Doesn't this mean there is an increase of rights?

Furthermore, even though there are cases where laws are bent in order to appease the Islamic community, generally, this is not the case. Look at the Netherlands, where 1 out of 6 people is a Muslim. They are not getting more rights, their rights are being restrained. And radical politicians who are elected with promises of practically stopping immigration from all Middle Eastern countries, banning of burqas and face covering veils. This in fact is oppressive of the Muslim community. And the Dutch aren't the only ones who are fighting the Muslims in this fashion. For instance France’s nationalist parties are swelling with popularity as more and more immigrants form eastern countries arrive.

Frankly, I find it inevitable that Islamic immigration should continue. Europe is old. Not just historically, but socially as well. Slowly the majority of people are getting older, and there are fewer and fewer kids. Immigrants provide fresh blood, someone to keep things going, and naturally they bring changes in society. We just have to learn to deal with the fact that they'll be our neighbors from now on.

Lastly I'd simply like to make a mention of Germany. The country has a huge population of Turks, most of whom are Muslim. However there are no radical changes in laws, the Islamic community does not protest anything because they do not need to protest anything. They are treated just like any other German citizens, and even though they sometimes claim racial discrimination, they are living perfectly well alongside the local populace.
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A gentleman is a man who can play the accordion but doesn't.

[Sniper_Zegai]

I think you have a good point Zonder, I dont think the worst of Islamic law will ever hit western shores but the allowances being made in Europe already are just unacceptable.

The savage beating of a teenage girl by her father was turned a blind eye to in Italy, with Pilogomy legalized for Muslim men in Germany and the right to protest being halted in Belgium, it feels like some of the most basic principals and rights that make the west what it is today are being undermined for the sake of political correctness and by politicians who could use the strong Islamic vote by doing making exceptions that would land anyone else in jail. And I think this is where the real racism and fear is.

Who knows, I may be taking too much of a FOX news look on this but the crimes that have already been commited and then been defended by Islamic "law" if you can call it that, is something I am genuinly worried about.
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[No_Brain]

What does poligamy have to do with the most basic principles of the west? Sure, all traditional religions of the west are monogamic. But poligamy is not some sort of holy concept that all constitutions in the west have always relied on. Furthermore what is wrong wiht poligamy? ANd how often are savage beatings of children turned a blind eye to? Often enough to make the instance in Italy special only in the fact that the fathre was a muslim and he hid behind that fact. Note, he did not beat her because he's a muslim. Kids are beaten by father's of all religions and nationalities. He simply hid behind the fact that he is muslim. It's a basic legal trick called the "race card" or the minority card in some cases. How often have you heard of cases in the US where a black man claims he is prosecuted only because he is black? But we don't get africophobia, do we?
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A gentleman is a man who can play the accordion but doesn't.

[Starslasher]

I don't know anything personally about Islamophobia in Europe, but a little bit about it in Australia, since i am a Muslim living in Australia.

Well, to start off, this is going to look very partial on my behalf, but there is a lot of, perhaps it's the not most accurate term but it's close enough, anti-Muslim bias. I don't know what particular reason for this, but it's most likely a number of different reasons.

One issue talked about in this thread was polygamy. I haven't heard anything about this in the news or whatever media in the past 4 years or so, since it's not a big issue to start with. Mainly because it's permitted, but not promoted. Personally, I have never met any family that had more than one wife involved, and i lived in Nigeria, Pakistan and Indonesia, which have one of the largest muslim populations in the world. Of course it doesn't mean that there aren't any, but this practice is not popular at all nowadays.

One other topic talked about was genital mutilation. Most that i have heard of came mostly from Somalia. I haven't read too much about this, like Leb, but i do know for certainty that it in fact had nothing at all to do with religion, but was something practiced within that culture.

Something related to this would be this case in Australia where a publisher was summoned to court to dicuss the legality of distributing literature in books sotres in islamic communities which were expressly anti-Western. Truth is indeed stranger than fiction, since that publisher did win the right to distribute the books. I was surprised by this, and would disagree with the court's decision, but their lawyer must have found some loophole.

I had read some articles related to the relevance of what No Brain was talking about. Most Western governments don't seek appeasement of their Muslim communities, like here in Australia. However, they are being careful to not appear racist. An example here in Australia is that the department of immigration made some revisions, stating that for a foreigner to come live in the country they have to embrace "Australian values". It was very strange since the term "Australian values" was so ambiguous, and required some elaboration.

I would have to say that the term "Islamophobia" is an apt term, since it is an irrational fear about Islam and/or the Muslims in general. These people have had a set image, thank to their imaginations, on what they would act like. The truth of the matter is that most, if not all, muslims living here, like me, don't care for changing laws in our country. But they can't help but get defensive when the politicians (e.g. A politician spoke against abortion stating one reason being that otherwise Australia would have a Muslim majority) and other people goes around bashing muslims and their religion.
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[Timbo]

[Leb]

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