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Tonberry
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 Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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| I guess you're right. If I put myself in Snowe's shoes, I would definately think it was a mutiny. I guess Snowe was just unfortunate. I also think the battle he was in charge of was too dificult for a newbie. A new captain shouldn't have to battle a veteran pirate. |
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Urn
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| Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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Well, the Hero did not betray Snowe. For one, Snowe gave up his position as Captain of the vessel when he cowardly fell to the ground and told his crew to retreat. It is the second-in-commands duty to assume command of a vessel when the captain is no longer deemed as competent. That is military rules 101.
But, I do agree that Snowe was given a raw deal from the beginning. It was his first actual battle and it's fine to believe he would be terrified. I believe Glen had it out for him due to his disdain for Snowe's pompous upbringing. Glen believed that Snowe should have worked for his position instead of have it handed to him on a silver platter. Glen definitely played favoritism to the Hero.
Also, Snowe was not gipped from being the hero. He did not have the mentality of hero. His upbringing stifled him. This caused him to conspire against his best friend. This could also be due to Glen's harshness towards Snowe. Snowe wanted to impress Glen and the hero always seem to steal his spotlight. Therefore, Snowe snooped on them all and knew that he would have a chance to profit off of the hero's mistake. In the end, Snowe was just a confused and immature individual looking for recognition.
He was not used to not being the center of attention. So, I disagree that he was cheated out of being the hero, but I do agree that he has qualities that would make him a pseudo-hero. Snowe could easily be seen as the embodiment of the flaw of an over-extended male ego. He embodies humanity.
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John Layfield
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| Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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Why wasn't he competent? Because he fell when the ship was struck by rune cannon fire? Because he decided not to stay and fight?
You'd need a lot more evidence than 'he fell down' to claim incompetentence on a scale large enough to be relieved of command in the midst of a naval engagment.
His order was not an insane one, it was an often used tactic called 'withdraw'. The crew decided that it was a pretty sucky order and felt that they should find a captain who liked a different order better. Sounds like a mutiny.
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Tonberry
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| Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Revolving Sphere wrote: |
| It was his first actual battle and it's fine to believe he would be terrified. I believe Glen had it out for him due to his disdain for Snowe's pompous upbringing. Glen believed that Snowe should have worked for his position instead of have it handed to him on a silver platter. Glen definitely played favoritism to the Hero. |
If I remember correctly, Glen came after Snowe to make sure that he was successful. I doubt that he meant Snowe to fail like that. Also, Glen could not have known that Snowe would have come upon such a powerful enemy.
John Layfield, I think that the order was ignored because the ship would have gone down before they could escape from the battle. Snowe's ship was already within firing range and the ship still had to turn around. If they tried to retreat, the pirates could have shot and destroyed the ship's main mast and then there would have been no escape. I truly believe that retreat was no longer an option at that point. |
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John Layfield
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| Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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If this was true, then a crew member should've pointed it out instead of mutining against the recognsied captain of the ship.
You have to follow a captains orders, even when they're bad, or, indeed, wrong. As long as the captain isn't insane, or mentally ill then you're stuck with him.
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One day, I shall come back. Yes, we shall all come back. Until then, there must be no regrets, no tears, no anxieties. Just go forward in all your beliefs and prove to me that I am not mistaken in mine. |
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Tonberry
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| Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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| You do have a point, but it was a matter of life and death. It was "technically" a mutiny, but it was not one of a malicioius intent. I do think that Snowe shouldn't have recieved all the blame for the incident though. I do think, however, that the hero shouldn't be punished for what he did. |
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John Layfield
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| Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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A mutiny is a mutiny whether it's a nice happy sunshine mutiny or a bad evil mutiny. There's no difference between the two, any honest trial would find that out in a second.
Sorry, but it's not how the military, any military, in history, ever, works.
How much blame can you give to a guy when he gives an order and no-one follows it because they didn't feel like it anyway?
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Aesa
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| Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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Several things that i think should be brought up is:
1) I blame Snowe's Father for not properly disiplining Snowe
2) I think Snowe could have wait until Hero came around and questioned him and then the knights could have taken a vote of what to do.
3) I do think, however, that Katrina; at least at first; had every right to suspect and maybe even hate Hero, for killing Glen, she didn't even get a chance to tell him that she was his daughter, he just turned to dust!
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Aesa
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| Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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Several things that i think should be brought up is:
1) I blame Snowe's Father for not properly disiplining Snowe
2) I think Snowe could have wait until Hero came around and questioned him and then the knights could have taken a vote of what to do.
3) I do think, however, that Katrina; at least at first; had every right to suspect and maybe even hate Hero, for killing Glen, she didn't even get a chance to tell him that she was his daughter, he just turned to dust!
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Aesa
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| Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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Forgive my computer for it's mistake if all 3 of the repeats showed up. My computer got all mess up and wreck havoc with that post.
Once again, my deepest apologis, so sry
*takes the computer off his desk and gets a baseball bat and smashed the stupid things screen and harddrive to bits*
The problem has been dealt with
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Tonberry
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| Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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| I do definately agree with number two. Snowe jumped to conclusions and that is never the right course of actions. I am not sure about number one because I never payed much attention to the relationship Snowe had with his father. As for number three, I just suggest you re-read number two. She should never have been in the situation where she had to hate the hero. He shouldn't have been accused without evidence of the murder. |
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Aesa
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| Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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Well that is sort of my point, there was none to defend him self with either, and she had specifically told them not to go up so he was also insubordinate
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Urn
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| Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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Why wasn't he competent? Because he fell when the ship was struck by rune cannon fire? Because he decided not to stay and fight?
You'd need a lot more evidence than 'he fell down' to claim incompetentence on a scale large enough to be relieved of command in the midst of a naval engagment. |
I never gave a reason why he was incompetent, amd surely never said something about him falling down. But since you need evidence I will give it to you. Snowe's wimpering and hysteria amidst the battle while he was supposed to be the pillar of order and strength of the vessel was what made him incompetent. The fact that he was crawling on the floor with his head down like a little baby made it impossible for him to properly command the ship, thus making him incompetent in his duty to secure the safety of his men and the vessel.
Or do you believe that a hysterical captain crawling on the floor with his head in his hands is competent? That should be enough evidence in itself to demand his removal. A captain who is hysterical will only lead to the crew being hysterical. Even if his order to withdraw was not a bad command they could not have properly withdrawn with the captain of the ship in the state he was in. The captain was supposed to be calm and properly lead his crew and he was not. Of course, this could be due to his lack of experience which I mentioned in my previous post.
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| If I remember correctly, Glen came after Snowe to make sure that he was successful. I doubt that he meant Snowe to fail like that. Also, Glen could not have known that Snowe would have come upon such a powerful enemy. |
This is totally true if you ignore the fact that Glen clearly has a negative view of Mayor Vingerfut. Glen mentions a number of times how things would be different if he could challenge the mayor's authority. I believe this has a direct effect on how he treated Snowe.
Of course, I agree that Glen wanted Snowe to succeed. Snowe was to be made captain regardless of Glen's choice and he would want Snowe to do well in order to protect the individuals under his command, but Glen was clearly biased against Snowe when it came to the Hero. Glen clearly pushed Snowe harder due to the fact that he saw greater talent in the hero.
The fact that the Hero was allowed to have conference with Glen and Katarina while they excluded Snowe showed favoritism. There is no reason why the hero should have been involved when Snowe wasn't allowed. I would go as far as to say that Glen wanted Snowe to fail in order to give him a valid excuse to appoint the hero as captain.
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| John Layfield, I think that the order was ignored because the ship would have gone down before they could escape from the battle. Snowe's ship was already within firing range and the ship still had to turn around. If they tried to retreat, the pirates could have shot and destroyed the ship's main mast and then there would have been no escape. I truly believe that retreat was no longer an option at that point. |
I totally agree with this statement. There was slim to no chance that they could have escaped the pirates at that point and Snowe's order was reasonable yet foolish due to him being blinded by fear.
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| You have to follow a captains orders, even when they're bad, or, indeed, wrong. As long as the captain isn't insane, or mentally ill then you're stuck with him. |
Also, there is various degrees of insanity. I would argue that Snowe was not in his right mind. He was clearly not thinking rationally due to him being blinded by fear. He could not make a rational decision at that point in time. Therefore, an order that will result in the imminent death of the crew due to an obvious oversight made by a captain who was clearly not thinking straight is an order that the crew was obligated to ignore. They had a rightful cause for mutiny.
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Sorry, but it's not how the military, any military, in history, ever, works.
How much blame can you give to a guy when he gives an order and no-one follows it because they didn't feel like it anyway? |
There are codes of conduct that would allow members of the military to relieve there commanding officer of his duty. I think Snowe ordering his crew to withdraw to their obvious death was a means for him to be relieved of his duty.
And Snowe should have received every once of the blame. He was the captain of the ship and the fact that his crew disobeyed his order showed the lack of competence he had. No crew would stand behind the decision of a disoriented, hysterical, and whimpering captain who only had his safety and not the crew's safety in mind.
| Quote: |
1) I blame Snowe's Father for not properly disiplining Snowe
2) I think Snowe could have wait until Hero came around and questioned him and then the knights could have taken a vote of what to do.
3) I do think, however, that Katrina; at least at first; had every right to suspect and maybe even hate Hero, for killing Glen, she didn't even get a chance to tell him that she was his daughter, he just turned to dust! |
I agree that Snowe's father should be partly blamed for his lack of discipline, but I believe that Snowe should be held responsible for his own actions, as well. He was not going to be able to rely on his daddy forever, so Snowe needed to accept who he was and not behave so immaturely.
I believe Snowe did not wait for the Hero to come to because he was conspiring against him. He wanted to see the hero fall from grace, maybe not see him dead, but Snowe wanted everyone to see that the hero could be horrible, too. This would and did guarantee Snowe's position as captain which he would not have had if he did not place the blame on the hero. And this worked even better because he knew no one would question him because he is the mayor's son. It was a brilliant way for Snowe to gain favor with the people again and an even better way to tarnish the reputation of the hero.
And yes, I agree that Katarina had ever reason to believe or at least suspect that the hero could have killed Glen, but I also believe that this is not because she believed the hero to be guilty but because she could not speak out against the Vingerfuts without actual proof and unfortunately Snowe was the only one there at the time. Whether she believed the hero killed Glen or not, she could not speak on his behalf at the time.
And the hero was definitely insubordinate when he disobeyed the orders of Glen, but Snowe was, as well. The hero's motive was pure, but Snowe's motive was to spy on anything that the hero and Glen might have done and use it in his favor. Hero's motives were pure and Snowe's motives were sketchy.
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Ninjar
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| Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 12:50 am Post subject: |
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| I think I mentioned this before but wasn't Glen going to adopt the hero. I swear they mentioned it at some point. I know I read it..or maybe it was in a dream. It's not a part of the official story that you have to read by finding them and talking to them. I think the commander does favor the hero though. |
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Tonberry
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| Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:42 am Post subject: |
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| Ninjar, I don't remember reading that anywhere but you could be right. That would add a whole new element to this discussion. :shock: |
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