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Urn
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 Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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Am I wrong for thinking that you seem to lump every hunter into the category of people that do it just for sport as opposed to people who honestly benefit from the death of that animal? Most hunters eat what they kill, or are survivalists [see again Ted Nugent] and use every part of the animal for some other purpose. Does this mean that the Native Americans and the Pilgrims both were doing it for sport and not for survival, perhaps? I mean, it isn't as if either one of those groups back in 1620 could just head out to a fast food joint and pull up and order the #5 large or anything.
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If they are hunting for survival, then it would not be for sport, correct? I am simply talking about the hunters who do so for sport not every hunter. I believe I made that distinction by saying "hunting for sport".
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Tell me again what benefit there is to dogfighting? What good comes out of it, except the mutilation of some animal that has no business theoretically of being put in that situation in the first place?
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For those who conduct those illegal activities the benefir it the torture and mutilation of the dogs which brings them excitement and a lot of money if they are on the winning side. Not that I agree with it, but there is a benefit for those that do it. Nobody who is doing that sort of thing is really concerned about the dog, just like a hunter generally is not concerned about the well-being of the game they are trying to kill. Again, I am not defending the concept of dogfighting at all and I am not comparing dog fighting to all hunters, just those that hunt for sport. I simply said there are some parallels with dog fighting and hunting as a sport. And whether you agree with dog fighting purpose or not, does mean it does not have a purpose. If there was no purpose to it, then it would not have been going on for at least 20 years and in at least over 12 states now would it?
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I read your second post from earlier over again and you said a few things that make me believe you have some bad information about dog fighting rings. I explained earlier the number of dogs that die that never fight that are used as bait animals. They let a training dog basically kill poodles and other dogs that are not fighting trained just to make sure it's aggressive against other dogs. It's not a one time thing either. Think about it as a steady diet of non fighting dogs that are killed regularly.
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Again, I am quite informed with dog fighting hence I am not trying to defend it or say that it is not wrong. I actually believe it to be a crime. But, again, there are some similarities to things we do with animals that are culuturally and socially accepted. For example, we kill smaller fish, crabs and possibly squid to catch bigger fish, not necessarily to eat them, but because we enjoy catching them. Do we do this with the same guilty conscience that we would with the poor dogs or do we not care how fish suffer?
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If you don't understand the severe mistreatment of the animals that just goes into preparation, and the amount of animals that have to die simply to make one fighting dog, then it's possible none of this makes sense.
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Again we are back to cruelty, which I have not argued against at all. Dog fighting is exceptionally cruel and should be illegal. My point is that hunting for sport can be exceptionally cruel, as well, but there is no felony for being an exceptionally cruel hunter as far as I know. Of course, I may be wrong.
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The question is why don't you see the difference between dog fighting (which is basically animal torture) and sport hunting?
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When did I imply or say that I did not see the differences between the two? I certainly don't recall saying that I don't see the differences, I simply said that I see some similarities in which those who compare dog fighting to hunting as a sport. It seems like the discussion is revolving around people trying to convince me that there is no similarity between dog fighting and hunting as a sport, when there are clearly similarities. If you think I am stating that there is a similarity between the two to defend dog fighting, then my statements are clearly being misconstrued. My statement was simply in response to a statement made here about whether there is or is not a similarity to dog fighting and hunting as a sport. I never stated that the similarity makes dog fighting less cruel or illegal, nor did I intend for a debate to go on and on about it either.
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Calvin
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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Dogfighting involves the practice of torture, mutilation, and death (by very unorthodox and unethical means). Hunting, sporting or otherwise, involves killing an animal without the intent to cause unneccesary pain and suffering to said animal.
One is pyschotic, and the other is based on a primitive instinct we were all born with. Yes, they both involve the death of animals, in the end. But that is where the similarity ends. They aren't very comparable because you don't get a good idea of one hobby when you compare it to the other.
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Sai Fujiwara
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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Comparing dogfighting to "hunting for sport," is about as asinine as comparing Bill Clinton to Adolf Hitler. I mean, sure they were both politicians, and both told a lie... But, seriously... I think you know that's a pretty absurd comparison. Wake up and smell the Taster's Choice, Urn. :P
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Geddoe
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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Okay, it's one thing to be on the unpopular end of an argument, but that doesn't mean that people on the popular end should be uncivil in their discourse. Being uncivil only means that your point carries less weight to anyone else reading it.
In other words, prove your points through reason, and not the ability to sniff Taster's Choice. :)
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Sai Fujiwara
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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It was a joke, I'm trying to break the ice a little, and see if a joke can't help him re-think the argument. I see a logical connection that he's trying to make but, it's so out of whack... The point I was trying to make between Hitler and Clinton is about as solid, and that was the main point I was trying to prove. Not that Urn can't smell coffee. (I'm sure he can.) I also wasn't trying to be uncivil. I know this is a serious argument, but I thought that a little humor wouldn't bend anyone out of shape the wrong way. Sorry if I offended anyone.
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Urn
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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What is there to re-think? I am not arguing for dog fighting and if you see the logical connection then obviously I made my point. I never said dog fighting and hunting, be it as a sport or ortherwise, was equivalent, I simply said they share a few similarities which is true and undeniable. The fact that you are continuing to say that my statements are out of wack leads me to believe that you did not understand the purpose of my statements in the first place.
Like I stated, my statement that I can see where the people were coming from when they said that they see a similarity between hunting as a sport and dog fighting, was simply that, I can see how they could argue that there is a similarity. Did I say they made a good argument? Nope, I just said, I see how they could say that. Why? Because it is true that they do share similarities if you look at them at face value and if you evaluate the intent of both activities done as a sport. I thought it was a pretty simple statement, but obviously not.
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Hunting, sporting or otherwise, involves killing an animal without the intent to cause unneccesary pain and suffering to said animal
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This is an assumption you're making, which may be true or it may not be true at all.
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Calvin
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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This is an assumption you're making, which may be true or it may not be true at all.
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What? Fish and Game Departments in the United States put limits on the type of weapons you can use as well as the caliber of bullets you can use explicitly for the safety of hunters themselves as well as to prevent the needless suffering of the animal. Also, even sport hunters don't just kill the animal and leave it there--at the very least, they use it for food. A lot of Fish and Game departments also require your killed game to be inspected and tagged. Teddy Roosevelt hunted for sport, and he is known as being a devote enviornmentalist and conservationist.
Hunting is extremely regulated in the United States.
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Yohn
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Zonder wrote: |
| Hunting is extremely regulated in the United States. |
It's ridiculously regulated with some points, it seems (in GA anyway), but I can see why it's totally necessary.
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