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Aurelien
20.01.08
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 Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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Himuro, no offense, man, but you're contradicting yourself quite a lot there.
| Himuro wrote: |
| I'm not saying my opinion is fact. |
Ok, so your opinion is not fact. But then ..
| Himuro wrote: |
| No. It's shit because they're horrible games. |
That doesn't look like an opinion to me. It looks far more like a statement. But then ..
| Himuro wrote: |
| But things like Nintendogs and Animal Crossing are horrible whether casuals like them or not, imo. |
Oooh, there's an "imo" part. But then ..
| Himuro wrote: |
| I like games of all types |
Except the ones like Nintendogs and Animal Crossings?
| Himuro wrote: |
| I'm one of the most open minded gamers here on this forum. |
Apparently not open minded enough to not be an elitist.
Anyways, I'm just confused as to what you really think. It just seems that you're saying "Screw everyone else, it's all about me, what I said is the truth" though you claim that it's "just your opinion and not fact".
The thing that bothers me the most about that kind of attitude is that you try so hard to sugar-coat things into being an "opinion", but then you bash the things that you don't like with facts and not opinions. You question adults who play Pokemon. What's wrong with playing Pokemon if you're an adult? If you like Pokemon, then no matter how old you are, go ahead and play it. It's their personal preference that made them playing Pokemon. Even a reason as simple as "I like cute stuff" is sufficient enough to make someone play Pokemon. Considering that your opinion is not fact, so what's wrong with that? Nothing at all. But you made such a big noise about how crap those games are.
| Himuro wrote: |
| Gamers like me, who think that story should always come second, who like arcade gameplay, and challenging difficulty are now a rarity. In order to survive, we must be elitist. |
Oh crap. You must be in real deep pain now. Suikoden doesn't have arcade gameplay element in it and it's not challenging either because of the easy level of difficulty. It only has storyline which isn't as important anyways, right? I feel your pain, brotha. Hang in there though. I'm sure Bare Knuckles or 1945 will be re-made someday.
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Thor McOdin
Stupid Sexy Flanders!
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| Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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Honestly, is it really that important to start taking sides and calling people out when portable game systems are in question? I mean, really...
With that said, I have a DS. I wouldn't mind getting a PSP, but it is a little more pricey...and I wanted to play Phoenix Wright. That pretty much sums up why I got a DS.
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Tron Bonne
The party members you never use
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| Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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I have both a psp and a DS. I have 22 DS games and 3 psp games. I like both system, but i use each one differently.
I use the DS to play games and the psp for homebrew. its basically my portable SNES.
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Ikano
Prince Geass Falenas
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| Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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Personally I never thought I would've bought either one but I eventually (like sorta really recently) bought the DS Lite (because of a certain must-have game that came out for it....I don't recall what it was though...)
plus I think there was a sweet DS Lite sale at the time...
The PSP is something nice to have but besides it's price being way up there I personally think it has too many other let's say..."other abilities" which...in the long run...unnecessarily keep it's price way up there
Call me "behind on the times" or whatever but me using the PSP to watch movies and download music? No thank you....I rather dislike the idea of watching movies on a tiny portable screen...and as for music...I'd sooner buy an MP3 player like an iPod first rather then going out to get a PSP
On top of that....I sorta think the PSP is rather bulky for a handheld (says a person who's gotten used to being able to slip a handheld in their pocket discretely without anyone ever seeing it)
But that's just all my preference...
Who knows...maybe wait a couple of months I might eventually pick up a PSP too *shrug*
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Firefly
Wednesday's Army
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| Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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I have a PSP and a DS, and I am so much happier with my PSP. Not only does it have much better and more numerous RPGs compared to the DS, I can rip and play my PS1 games on it and play them wherever... it doesn't get any more awesome than that! Not to mention I have tons of pictures and music on my memory card as well.
I got the DS for FFIII (big mistake, I haven't even bothered finishing it yet), while for the PSP I have Valkyrie Profile, Brave Story, Tales of the World, Final Fantasy II, Harvest Moon and Tales of Eternia. It also has some promising games coming out such as Final Fantasy Tactics, Dragoneer's Aria, Disgaea, and Star Ocean 1 & 2. I can't even think of any good RPGs (my opinion of course) that are out for the DS or are coming out, maybe besides the FFIV remake.
The DS is fun, but I really think the PSP blows it out of the water, especially when we're talking about RPGs, which is the only genre I play anymore.
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Himuro
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 2:35 am Post subject: |
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| Jossef wrote: |
| Himuro wrote: |
| I have to be elitist. |
| Himuro wrote: |
I'm one of the most open minded gamers here on this forum. |
This doesn't make any sense. |
It does. Look on my past posts. I'm an elitist, but I like pretty much every genre. The majority of the people here only play rpgs. I don't really care what genre it is as long as it's not a non game, in which case, I'm not bothering if it is.
| Aurelien wrote: |
Himuro, no offense, man, but you're contradicting yourself quite a lot there.
| Himuro wrote: |
| I'm not saying my opinion is fact. |
Ok, so your opinion is not fact. But then ..
| Himuro wrote: |
| No. It's shit because they're horrible games. |
That doesn't look like an opinion to me. It looks far more like a statement. But then .. When is it ever necessary to say, "imo" every post. Horrible example.
| Himuro wrote: |
| But things like Nintendogs and Animal Crossing are horrible whether casuals like them or not, imo. |
Oooh, there's an "imo" part. But then ..
| Himuro wrote: |
| I like games of all types |
Except the ones like Nintendogs and Animal Crossings? Yeah. Pretty much. Because they aren't games.
| Himuro wrote: |
| I'm one of the most open minded gamers here on this forum. |
Apparently not open minded enough to not be an elitist. Yet open minded to like western rpgs, gta games, third person shooters, and the xbox, unlike the majority of the forum. |
| Quote: |
| Oh crap. You must be in real deep pain now. Suikoden doesn't have arcade gameplay element in it and it's not challenging either because of the easy level of difficulty. It only has storyline which isn't as important anyways, right? I feel your pain, brotha. Hang in there though. I'm sure Bare Knuckles or 1945 will be re-made someday. |
Yeah, because every game I play needs to have arcade elements or be challenging. Think outside the box. The reason I like Suikoden is for the non linearity. The fact that the story beutifully intertwines with the gameplay via character recruitment without being intrusive, and many other reasons. Suikoden games are story based, but they aren't story based to the point where I feel like I'm watching a cutscene every five minutes. I never said I think that no game should have story or that I don't enjoy some games with story, but it still takes second place when I play ANY game (aside from a few exceptions like Silent Hill. The gameplay in Silent Hill is horrible).
If you think I'm contradicting myself, you haven't read many of my past posts on this forum.
| Firefly wrote: |
I got the DS for FFIII (big mistake, I haven't even bothered finishing it yet), while for the PSP I have Valkyrie Profile, Brave Story, Tales of the World, Final Fantasy II, Harvest Moon and Tales of Eternia. |
Check out Ys: Ark of Napishtim
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Ezekiel
Mediocre Archer
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 3:37 am Post subject: |
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Well....I do enjoy my DS, but mostly just cause of GBA games. So, that's not a fair judging. I do enjoy Final Fantasy III, and pokemon, but that's about it. I'm waiting for a few titles on the PSP, I've not found anything I love yet. I'm very picky, so my opinion should honestly be overlooked. I like both, but currently I spend more time on my DS. Yep, that's all I got.
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Leb
Pizza Toppings
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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Himuro, you can hide behind "imo" all you want, but your belief that gamers can be generalized and criticized based on what they play kind of speaks for itself. I like Animal Crossing DS, therefore I have bad taste?
And Suikoden is extremely linear. Cinematics and story sequences have little to do with the linearity of a game. Your choices almost always have little to no impact, and rarely are you allowed to choose where to go and when. That makes it linear. |
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Himuro
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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How is Suikoden linear? If you think Suikoden is linear, you aren't playing it right. You can scout out characters, play mini games in your castle, do extra stuff all without messing with the main storyline. When compared to other jrpgs, Suikoden is non linear as hell.
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Leb
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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Those things you listed don't have anything to do with linearity. Non-linearity is the amount of choice the player has. Is he or she free to progress through the game the ways s/he sees fit? Do his/her choices have a meaning and lasting impact?
The things you listed are just recreation and activities you can putter around with before progressing through the linear story. That does not make the game open-ended.
Last edited by Leb on Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:30 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Amyral
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| Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:27 am Post subject: |
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| Himuro wrote: |
| How is Suikoden linear? If you think Suikoden is linear, you aren't playing it right. You can scout out characters, play mini games in your castle, do extra stuff all without messing with the main storyline. When compared to other jrpgs, Suikoden is non linear as hell. |
A linear game is one that guides the player along a path. To advance the game, they must follow that same path. They're like a highway where the gamer is taking a road trip. Sidequests, on the other hand, are just rest stops or motels along the way. They don't actually change the path you take, they just delay you from continuing it for a little while. A non-linear game has detours, backroads, etc ie: things you do that actually change the path you take. In short, as Leb said, choices that actually matter, as opposed to the same things happening in the same order regardless of what you decide to do. Most (really, all but one) of the rpgs I've played recently have side quests, regardless of whether they were a Japanese rpgs or an American rpgs. Really, any game you could divert your attention by doing other things, whether it be leveling up or whatnot. Whether a player does anything other than trudge straight along doesn't change whether a game is linear or non-linear, only the options that the player actually has.
A non-linear game has genuine choices and variety in how you play through. You don't have to do the same thing every time. Games like Tactics Ogre, for example, have elements of non-linear game play. You always end up at the same battle at the end, but you can take different paths to get there, you don't have to go to this place then this place then this place all the time.
It doesn't matter how it compares to other jrpgs, Suikoden still has linear gameplay. The least linear one I played was 3, and that was only because you could choose in what order you wanted to play the first part of the story, but even then every character still had the same story every time you played through. Non-linear as hell is a game like Morrowind, where you're essentially dropped in and have more or less free reign to approach the game however you want. |
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Himuro
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| Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:35 am Post subject: |
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Often times when playing Suikdoen titles (even the craptastic IV), the game rewards you by exploration, mostly through new recruit possibilities. The games often have events that are time specific, and require you to deviate from the main story to see them. This is especially true with V. Further still, Suikoden titles have multiple locations that can only be reached by deviating from the main story and exploring. This means that after almost every single plot event, you'll have something new to do, in any order that you choose.
You talk about choices but you forget that in V, depending on what you say and what you do to these characters, the may or may not join your cause, or you may delay their eventual recruitment.
You also forget that numerous events change depending on what you do. It's possible for Pahn to survive the attack against Teo in Suikoden I. In Suikoden III you can pick what character to play as in any order, and even choose your leader later in the game;etc etc. ad infinitum.
How any Suikoden fan could say that the games are linear, I don't know. Either they are foolish, or don't know what non linearity in games actually means or can mean. But then again, Leb thinks Dragon Quest Swords is an rpg so I don't think he knows what he's talking about to begin with.
Every single rpg is on a linear path. Even the KotoR and Baldur's Gate games, which are non linear as hell. You can continue the game's story, but there are often so many things to do that make the games quite non linear. A game does not have to be entirely like the Elder Scrolls or GTA to be considered non linear. Furthermore, non linearity is not always decided by the choices you make in a story.
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Sage
The Invincible Weeds
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| Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:56 am Post subject: |
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What does the definition of linearity have to do with the DS and PSP comparison? I would suggest starting another topic for it, but I also see that things are getting personal so just drop it and let this thread get back on topic.
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Amyral
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| Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:28 am Post subject: |
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| Himuro wrote: |
| Often times when playing Suikdoen titles (even the craptastic IV), the game rewards you by exploration, mostly through new recruit possibilities. |
Which is different from any other sidequest in any game how? Sidequests usually have rewards or some sort, it's the standard in gaming. It's far more rare for them to mean absolutely nothing. The only real difference is that you can get recruits in the Suikoden games where you might get items, weapons, abilities, etc in other games. If your argument is that "other things to do = non-linear gameplay" then your statement that other jrpgs are non-linear is fallacious, because nearly all of them have, at the very least, sidequests if not other diversions such as minigames. The only game I have played that didn't really have any genuine sidequests or minigames was The Lord of the Rings: The Third Age and even then they had a villain mode you could play after each chapter.
I addressed Suikoden 3 already, for Suikoden I, yeah, Pahn can survive, and then what? It doesn't change what you do next, the course of action you take, it doesn't change any of your objectives or goals. It's the same whether he lives or dies just like it's the same if any of the war stars dies in a war battle. Does the fact that you can get a certain thing if you try to steal from a certain enemy change whether or not a game is linear? Does the fact that you can you can get an accessory in Final Fantasy VI if you refuse to join the resistance enough times make it less linear, even though you have to join them to advance?
| Himuro wrote: |
| How any Suikoden fan could say that the games are linear, I don't know. Either they are foolish, or don't know what non linearity in games actually means or can mean. But then again, Leb thinks Dragon Quest Swords is an rpg so I don't think he knows what he's talking about to begin with. |
I can assure you, Himuro, I'm neither a fool nor ignorant on what non-linearity means. I think it's quite likely that you're operating on a different definition, so it'd be rather beneficial to state what linearity means (or rather, my definition, if you refuse to accept it.) In games, linearity means that the goals, the objectives of the game, must be met in a specific order to advance. That doesn't necessarily mean they have to be approached one after the other with nothing in between (hence, an optional sidequest), it means that there is an order to how it plays out that has to be followed and that it won't change depending on what you do. In other words, if it doesn't affect the advancement of the game, it doesn't affect the linearity of the game as a whole.
All rpg's I've ever played have some elements that are, by their existence, non-linear, simply because you can explore your surroundings or fight around to level up. That doesn't change whether the game as a whole is non-linear, because even if you can run around a field fighting rats until your so powerful that everything else is a breeze, if it doesn't affect what you have to do and the order that you have to do it, it doesn't affect the linearity.
Suikoden 3, in that regard, was indeed more non-linear than most games. You are right in assessing it as such, because for at least a good chunk of the game you could choose the order by which you played the chapters. However, every time each chapter was the same. Playing through all of one character's chapters didn't change another character's chapters and you couldn't play Hugo's third chapter before his second. Even who you chose as leader didn't effect the objectives of the game, it just changed who got what true rune.
I never said it had to be a sandbox game or an open ended game for it to be non-linear. You're right, it's not decided by the choices you make, but it is decided by whether the choices you make actually make a difference.
Edit: As per Sage's post, if you want to debate what is or isn't linear, it'd be best to have a new thread to do so, or to do so through pm, since it's quite off-topic to this thread.
Last edited by Amyral on Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:30 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Yohn
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| Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:29 am Post subject: |
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I love my DS to pieces and I would love to get a PSP in the future when I've got money from a few more commissions and I've put a new timing belt in my car and had the tires realigned.
I'd really only get the PSP for the Nippon Ichi games, though. : / And Katamri.
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