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John Layfield
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 Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 11:18 am Post subject: |
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| John Layfield (all the way back on page two!) wrote: |
| I am requesting that this topic not be sidetracked into debating the second amendment of the US constitution. It's been done too many times elsewhere and nothing conclusive has ever come from it. |
It seems I made in error in using the term request. I assumed folks would see that it was only a use of superficial politeness. I was in error and I apologise.
So, here it is again.
If I see one more post derailing the topic into gun control and arguments based on it then this thread dies and we have another strike against news articles being posted here.
If you folks really want to argue gun control, then find another website because it's been done to death here already.
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Luceit
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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*Looks at John Layfield's warning* Okay...
Well, from what I read today in the newspapers, did you see that Cho's family said they would give full support to the police in investigating the crime? Kind of late to be doing it if you ask me. Also, his sister said that she'd never imagine that he would have done something like that. There was also a depressing broadcast on CNN just now talking about the victims. It's bogging me down, it is. :cry:
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The problem with the Virginia Tech shootings isn't just about the availability of guns but the failure of the school and psychiatric system that are suppose to identify, help and, if need be, institutionalized individuals like Cho Seung-hui. Even then they're only allowed to go as far as the laws allow them to. No one really knows when someone who may be shy, a loner or who writes disturbing literature will turn out to be a mass-murderer. If writing disturbing and sick material is a requisite for someone to become a killer then every horror writer (from Stephen King to Clive Barker) should be arrested and locked up for having the potential to go off and kill dozens if not hundreds.
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Until we know how much counselling he actually got, I refrain from talking about this matter. They did try to help him, and philosophically, that's about enough. From what I read, he practically shut himself out by the time he was in college, and people apparently thought he was a scary person. From reading postings at AOL, these (supposedly) psychologists said that he was clearly in need of help from reading the screenplays.
I also agree that there was little that could be done. Censoring violent writings? It's just not feasible, seeing that a lot of things now are violent. Get all shy students to be counselled? There are too many of them. Even with a strict set of criteria, Cho wasn't properly identified. His psychiatrist said that he might be a danger to himself, but not a danger to others.
Here's another this to consider: Do you think that it would be a good idea for schools to tell a student's parents if their children are suffering from problems?
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Yvl
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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Do you think that it would be a good idea for schools to tell a student's parents if their children are suffering from problems?
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That's exactly what my school did with me. It's law in Pennsylvania - teachers are required to inform the proper authorities if they suspect a student may be troubled.
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Fu Su Lu
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, dont forget a court stated Cho was/ could be a menace for others in 2005 (i think it was 2005) and it seems parents were not reported about it.
You have someone with serious problems, you put him in a place full of strangers, people tease him in cruel ways, humiliating him sometimes (some people, even at high told him to go to China, because he didnt speak english properly) and ...*look at John´s warning too*...
...and you have a bomb waiting to explode.
Cho´s problems were there even from childhood -probably he was born with some mental illness- as he even was diagnosed to be autist at 8 years old, when his family reached USA, but they hadnt money to pay him a treatment or an appropiate school.
I think Cho was only right in something: there were lots of chances to avoid what happened
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Yvl
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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as he even was diagnosed to be autist at 8 years old
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WHAT?!
No wonder I'm drawing so many comparisons with this guy and myself.
Oh, damn, this is going to kill my mother...
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Sophita
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Luceit wrote: |
| Do you think that it would be a good idea for schools to tell a student's parents if their children are suffering from problems? |
I think it would depend entirely on the situation. Sometimes, a lot of a student's problems are their parents.
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Buff
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Yvl wrote: |
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Do you think that it would be a good idea for schools to tell a student's parents if their children are suffering from problems?
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That's exactly what my school did with me. It's law in Pennsylvania - teachers are required to inform the proper authorities if they suspect a student may be troubled. |
didn't know they would do that with college students. i thought they only did that for highschool students and under.
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Yvl
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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didn't know they would do that with college students. i thought they only did that for highschool students and under.
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That's what I meant. It's totally unpractical to even consider it for colleges.
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Buff
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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well ya especially since they arn't underage students, or at least most who go to college arn't. but i say in like serious cases they should notify the parents. in the gunman's case they should of.
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Yvl
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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What do his parents have to do with his future?
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Buff
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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could of taken him out of school and tried to get him help. or since he's been reported for odd behavior plenty of time but yet the school didn't do any thing.
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Amyral
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Buff wrote: |
| could of taken him out of school and tried to get him help. or since he's been reported for odd behavior plenty of time but yet the school didn't do any thing. |
No, they couldn't have done anything if he didn't want them do. He was 23, legally an adult. The school doesn't (and couldn't) report to his parents. In the US, they can't legally give out personal information unless it is either open by law or the person agrees to it. The parents had no legal control over him.
Secondly, hindsight is always 20-20. Most of what he did (annoying students, being quiet, etc) isn't anything they could notify over. If they didn't prosecute on the stalking incident, there's no further action they could take. All that leaves is the court incident which should have prevented the much of this. That was public record. However, he was older than 18 when that happened, so he could legally keep it from his parents. |
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Buff
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Amyral wrote: |
| Buff wrote: |
| could of taken him out of school and tried to get him help. or since he's been reported for odd behavior plenty of time but yet the school didn't do any thing. |
No, they couldn't have done anything if he didn't want them do. He was 23, legally an adult. The school doesn't (and couldn't) report to his parents. In the US, they can't legally give out personal information unless it is either open by law or the person agrees to it. The parents had no legal control over him.
Secondly, hindsight is always 20-20. Most of what he did (annoying students, being quiet, etc) isn't anything they could notify over. If they didn't prosecute on the stalking incident, there's no further action they could take. All that leaves is the court incident which should have prevented the much of this. That was public record. However, he was older than 18 when that happened, so he could legally keep it from his parents. |
true. i figured with stuff he got reported on like the setting fire to his dorm room and the stalking that the school would of reported him to the parents. plus i bet on most college school they would of gotten ride of a student like that of they stalked and set fire to their own dorm room.
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Luceit
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:49 am Post subject: |
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No, they couldn't have done anything if he didn't want them do. He was 23, legally an adult. The school doesn't (and couldn't) report to his parents. In the US, they can't legally give out personal information unless it is either open by law or the person agrees to it. The parents had no legal control over him.
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I was referring to the time the teacher brought him for counselling earlier. I know that they couldn't have reported him to his parents. Then again, I suppose he was already an adult by the time the plays were spotted.
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Secondly, hindsight is always 20-20. Most of what he did (annoying students, being quiet, etc) isn't anything they could notify over. If they didn't prosecute on the stalking incident, there's no further action they could take. All that leaves is the court incident which should have prevented the much of this. That was public record. However, he was older than 18 when that happened, so he could legally keep it from his parents.
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The question is: Is that feasible? He may have been an adult, but let's not forget that his parents are paying for his education. Put it this way, I'm just wondering if a rule like this would benefit people, because a large disadvantage is that it will reduce a person's trust in counsellors, because they won't know if the counsellor would tell their secret to another person. Personally, I say that it's making a mountain out of a molehill if something like that was implemented, but I just asked it to see what you all thought.
As for being autistic, I guess that was a pitiful thing. Most autistic children grow up well given that they receive a lot of care, but maybe he was more difficult than most. How severe was it anyway?
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Amyral
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 2:39 am Post subject: |
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| Luceit wrote: |
The question is: Is that feasible? He may have been an adult, but let's not forget that his parents are paying for his education. Put it this way, I'm just wondering if a rule like this would benefit people, because a large disadvantage is that it will reduce a person's trust in counsellors, because they won't know if the counsellor would tell their secret to another person. Personally, I say that it's making a mountain out of a molehill if something like that was implemented, but I just asked it to see what you all thought. |
I had considered the possibility that his parents were paying for his education. I hadn't heard either way if they did or not, so I'm not going to assume that they were. But, however, it's irrelevant whether they were or not. He's an adult and that educational information can't be handed out to anyone without his consent under FERPA. FERPA (the Family Educational Rights and Privacy Amendment, for those that don't know) prevents school employees from divulging information related to a student's grades, home life or behavior to anyone except to a legal guardian. When they are an adult, that means that not even a student's parents can get that information without the student's consent.
Now, for the feasibility. Would it be feasible? Absolutely, if they could legally do it. I see no reason why it wouldn't be. Contacting parents about disciplinary actions or bad grades would be as simple as setting up an automatic dialing system, or an automatic e-mail system, and just have it go through the system. They could also have a mass, automated mailing system. Most universities have them already in place to contact high-school seniors asking them to apply, there's no reason to believe that they couldn't do it. However, doing so breaks federal law.
The counselor thing is the same way, there's patient-doctor privilege involved. While that's not part of federal law, it's part of, as far as I'm aware, every state's common law for that very reason, for a doctor to be able to treat a patient, a patient has to know they can trust a doctor to keep private information private.
Now, if they wanted to make it possible, and went through the proper legal means to overturn FERPA, your question was 'would anyone likely benefit?' Well, obviously this situation would only apply to two cases, that of the student being an adult and that of the student being a minor who was emancipated (basically legally separated from parents and given the same rights as an adult). In the cases of other minor, non emancipated children, the school can and most likely already does give out progress information to students, so they are irrelevant. In either of these cases where it would apply, the parents of the student could do nothing, as they legally have to bearing to do anything. Even if the parents paid for school, they can't remove their kids from school. If they cut off funding, a kid can still go to school if they can find a way to pay for it themselves, and that's assuming the parents even do pay for it (as opposed to the kids paying for it at the start or the state paying for it through scholarships).
So even if schools could inform parents, the parents in the cases where this would be relevant wouldn't legally be able to do anything, and, as such, any law that allowed this would have no positive effect. Whereas, if they overturned FERPA in this way, it would basically open the door to other breaches of privacy or other ways around the system. Major negative to achieve no benefit. |
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