Patriotism, or Nationalism?

[Gil-galad]

Quite an interesting topic about the modern US, as it was an interesting topic in Europe during the war era. Is the attitude many American hold about their own country patriotic, or nationalist? How do you feel about patriotism, and nationalism? How do you think nationalist beliefs in America, have and will continue to effect our world relations?

Personally, I think "patriotism" is a word abused by many Americans who would like to put a positive spin on their nationalist beliefs. That's not a generalization of all Americans. I'd like to say that I'm patriotic, but do I think that America is best country in the world? Of course not, we're far from perfect. No country can really be considered perfect. Yet many American people blindly say that America is the greatest country in the world without even know that there are other countries besides Mexico or Canada.

So anyways, do you think nationalism in the US is a growing problem?
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[Masaya]

My Vietnam War History teacher liked to explain Nationalism as "Patriotism on Steroids". Meaning Nationalism is Patriotism, just to the extream that one can not contain themsleves and must shout out, act for their country. Nationalism being unable to contain. I don't really consider myself either though so who am I to talk. :-P
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[Ujitsuna]

I think nationalism and patriotism are different. The idea of nationalism being a strong patriotism allows nationalists to exploit that mask and to be heard even more so than people just proud to be part of their country.

[Sniper_Zegai]

Im English and very prideful of my country and its history and I think this is natural and healthy for people to be proud of where they came from but when it becomes a dominating factor to the point where Im actually using the actions of other members of my nation past or present to make out that I am somewhat superior to others, not like racism or bigotry but just a sort of smugness that I think alot people think Americans have. Im sure this is'nt true of all americans however so I try not to paint them with the same brush becuase whether you like America or not, its an undeniably a great nation which has made great acheivements.

Mostly I dont mind Americans thinking that they are the greatest nation ever becuase its a new nation on the grand scale and I guess the people need that moral boost. Almost every country has hundreds of thousands of years of history to feel proud of and I think America now more than ever with the Iraq war is starting to realise that its not all that and every country big or small is'nt perfect.

One more thing though. What do they mean when they say "All American" girl or boy when desribing young people who are doing well? I've always wondered what comes to mind.
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[CAPTAIN PLANET]

Many people from every country love their country a lot. Some hate their country. And some are over-loving of their country. The people who think they are patriotistic, in my opinion, are the nation lovers. The Nationalists are the over-loving people. At least, that's how it's been portrayed to me.

I like America. It's fun living here, but in many ways, we are not perfect. Upon going to Europe last year, I saw how different things were. Many other countries have more freedoms than America does, and yet, we call ourselves "The Land of The Free".

I think things could improve in America. Do I hate it? No. Do I LOVE it? No. I think it's okay. I'm glad that I was born here, rather than in countries where I would be killed if I said something wrong. But, I also think that we are not the greatest country in the world.
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ard says:
I'll yank your pigtails and call you heidi
Mirage says:
ard, save the dirty talk for when we meet!

[Vextor]

To me, a patriot is a person who really cares about the welfare of the nation and its people, and would thus willingly fight against the ruling powers if their polices are destructive towards the nation and its people. Examples would be Germans who fought against the Nazis during WWII.

A nationalist on the otherhand would dogmatically adhere to a nation's policy, even if it is destructive to the nation and even to the nationalist himself. Examples would be Germans who stuck with the Nazis even after it was apparent that their policies were destructive for Germany.

[CAPTAIN PLANET]

Those are good examples, Vex.
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ard says:
I'll yank your pigtails and call you heidi
Mirage says:
ard, save the dirty talk for when we meet!

[Sniper_Zegai]

[Shad]

I'll post over the reply I made to this in Tinto since my take on it probably doesn't comply with the norm. By the way Masaya, your avatar renders you my new favorite person here.


Well, if the terms are defined by the times I would think 'patriotism' bears a more negative connotation than 'nationalism', considering the US has been employing it in every propaganda piece they've put out since the onset of this whole Iraq jumble. My definition of the two words is a bit different though.

Dictionary.com offers
pa·tri·ot·ism "devoted love, support, and defense of one's country; national loyalty." and "love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it"
as opposed to
na·tion·al·ism "an idiom or trait peculiar to a nation." and "a movement, as in the arts, based upon the folk idioms, history, aspirations, etc., of a nation." among other more generic definitions.

I tend to view the two under these terms, and as such think of nationalism as a better trait than patriotism. Patriotism to me is a love of the institution - of the state. A patriot in an American sense is one who loves the Constitution and the unity of a nation under it., and an excessive patriot, a 'nationalist' as you coined it, is someone whose admiration, blind or otherwise, for the symbol of the United States gives them a feeling of superiority and manifest destiny. While a large number of US citizens do fall under this category I imagine there are far fewer today than in prior generations.

Nationalism as I see if can barely exist in the United States with the US as the focal point. I regard it as a love for one's culture and heritage. Since fewer nations today are bound and defined by cultures than in the past, the term coined can be misleading. Excessive nationalism as we know it probably took hold in the 19th and 20th centuries, in part because enormous technological advancements provided easy means for cultures to mingle and people to settle away from their native lands. Local traditions were overrun with foreign cultures and people were rightfully angered by it. That protests against this turned at times to violence and racism, say in the British RAC movement of the 80s and the Norwegian black metal scene of the 90s, may be frowned upon, but it can certainly be empathized with. Those at fault had a legitimate cause but took perhaps the wrong approach. Excessive patriotism in contrast seems far more self-serving.

Both may have similar ends, but excessive patriotism stems from a desire to feel distinct and superior to others, whereas excessive nationalism stems from a desperation to preserve one's identity and thus results in a feeling of superiority. The latter seems far more respectable to me.

[Eden]

Well, as many people I do love my country. Unless most here I come from Germany. To be even the tiniest bit patriotic is looked at suspicious by people from other nations as well as fellow Germans.
I like my country, because I think it does many things right and has established a system that can compete with any other on this planet. It is not perfect, but perfect systems only exist in the plans of thinkers and philosophers.
Even I myself don't go around, because it is actually true that there to many people here who don't say: "Germany is not perfect, but does it best to make life better for as many as possible", but rather insist: "Germany is not perfect, but at least it is better than the worthless scum around the world." Although this are too many, they are not the majority and still it seems as if this is what other nations think of us.
This doesn't really help much, because it is unbelievable how many discussions about Germany are cut off from any base, because people said at one point: "(...) but the Nazis!"
I don't want people to forget about that time, but still I hope that people are able too look further and see that Germany back then is differerent from the democratic country it is today.
To make this at least sound as if it answers the topic: being patriotic in Germany is harder than in most countries and being nationalist is unbearable for others.
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The Fool

[Kikito]

I actually have always viewed Nationalism as Sh4dak described it in his post, which made wonder why in the first post it was posted as a "growing problem". However, that is probably due to the fact that I've been very exposed to the word, seeing as there are some Nationalist movements in Puerto Rico, and there was even a Nationalist Party many years ago, which at one point gained a lot of support. All of these Nationalistic movements have the goal of achieving the Independence of Puerto Rico, which ties in with the ideals behind Nationalism.

In a way, you could say that I have many nationalistic ideas. I think that since Puerto Rico is a culture all of its own, with its own language and people of different ethnic background, that it has the right of self determination, that is, that it is our people who should decide the fate of Puerto Rico, not the United States goverment.

Meanwhile, Patriotism is viewed more as a love for one's country, and what appears to be happening in the US, from what I've witnessed is a case of excessive patriotism, which should not be confused with Nationalism.

[Equus]

[Starslasher]

Well, i'm not a patriot, so i don't really conenct to people who are proud of their country, even with my fellow Pakistanis. On a scale of 1 to 10, i'm probably a 3, a 4 at most.

But i share the views of many of the postere here. I guess that there's nothing wrong in being proud of your country. So Patriotism isn't a problem. But i do have problems with Nationalists from all around the world. To me, they strike me as xenophobic, narrow-minded and plays on the fears and frustrations of the people for their political gains. When i see the news about the policies of Nationalists/ far-right parties in France or in Australia, i can't help but get annoyed with their stubborness to promote their racism, but never calling it that. But that is my impression, i might be wrong about them.
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Guardian of Greenhill & Devoted Protector of Oulan



Bork! Bork! Bork!

[Yvl]

From another thread:

[Exile]

Couple of things, not really anything in depth but just some clarification and things that stood out in Yvl's post I wanted to comment on so excuse my quotings if you don't like a post written that way but there's only three things (four with a wiki quote added too).