Trinity Sight versus the Silent Hero

[Arcana]

Someone referred me to this recent Livejournal post about the narrative technique used in the Suikoden games: basically, the Trinity Sight System versus the Silent Hero.

http://www.livejournal.com/users/myaru/252743.html

This is a journal post, so it doesn't necessarily add up 100% (and it's also mostly the author's opinion), but I think the writer brings up a number of very valid points, such as the amount of expansion on storytelling that the Trinity Sight system can achieve, and how a non-silent protagonist can help players "care" more about the hero's personal struggle and their position in the world.

Thoughts?
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Woo, 2000 posts as of Tuesday, 2007 August 28.

[Lunarblade]

ANYTHING is better than the silent-hero bull that we're constantly being handed in Suikoden games (other than III obviously...) Forgive me for wanting my main character to actually REACT to what's going on. I guess I just don't prefer to have a blank slate on which other characters can project as my only outlet in the game. The best thing that can ever happen to the series is getting rid of the silent hero. The TSS wasn't great, but it was a refreshing change. Let's just have some characters with...well...character.

Phew.

That rant wasn't really directed at anyone BTW, just letting some steam out on the subject. :)
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[Solitude]

I to liked the characters when they had a personality. The TSS was a good change like Lunarblade said and I wouldn't of minded seeing some expansion on that. However I do have to give kudos to Konami for being able to have a silent hero and pull off awesome games over and over again. It wouldn't be overly difficult to have a character with a personality and not have the TSS though. Perhaps then it would be just like every other RPG though.

[Watari]

I always liked that in Suikoden 1 and 2 the heros were both silent. I relate better to a hero that does say anything to a hero like Tidus off of FFX.(shivers)
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Sti?rth?ir le Machaire B?iteach

[Raze]

Here's the deal with the "silent hero" type games: You are the main character! You are that character's personality, his ego, his conscience. You make the decisions, you put the words in his mouth, and you tell him what to do. Don't believe me? Ask Sid Meyers. In all of his games, the main character rarely shows his face and doesn't speak because you are playing as that character, so he feels that that character should react and behave in the same manners that you do, not what he thinks the character should do.

With the Trinity sight style, you don't really play as much of a role in the game, you just make the decisions for that character when they present you a choice. It's more like playing an interactive movie than "experiencing and living through" a character, in the silent hero types.

While I found the Trinity system fascinating, I'd much rather have the Silent hero complex. It helps prevent you from becoming dissapointed/hating the hero in mid-game. (if you even decide to get that far)

Case in point: Tidus. (that whiny punkass.)

[/rant]
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Rend. Slaughter. Devour your enemies. There is no other way to survive. You cannot escape your hunger, warriors of Purgatory.

[Neclord]

I prefer the silent hero, as said above the whole point of it is you are that character. That is why you name him. Basically the entire point of a RPG, playing a role.

Over the years the entire RPG genre has been changed by the likes of Squaresoft and its heavy advertisement of Final Fantasy, bringing newer RPG fans into the fray. Not that this is bad entirely but it has hurt the genre. Since Final Fantasy VII developers of new RPG games continue to try to make the games easier, faster, and more appealing in attempt to entice gamers.

In short you will find the vast majority of RPG games in the past contained silent heros, because that is the basis of the very name of the genre Role Playing Game. That is something I like about Suikoden, it did not stray from the roots like many others did just to make a buck.

You are not Playing a Role if the character speaks and acts and does anything he wants on his own without your control now are you? No, you are only a bystander.

I continue to emphesize playing a role because I think so many gamers have forgotten the entire ideal behind the genre, or maybe they don't know because they were the ones lured to RPGs by FF7, but the hero is supposed to not speak, because in escence you are supposed to pretend that the hero is you.

the trinity site system and other games have made it to where you are no longer playing a role, but are merely reading a story on the sidelines. Now I admit I do like those games such as Final Fantasy where the hero is not you but just another character, but I will always like Playing a Role and the silent hero better, even if they are both almost extinct.
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You must not fear death, my lads; defy him, and you drive him into the enemy's ranks.
~ Napoleon Bonaparte

[Benit149]

The Silent Hero system is a strange form of self-insertion, based upon Raze's explanation of it. The company already designs who 'you' are going to be, but the character's reactions and choices are based upon your thoughts as a player, instead of trying to understand where an actual main hero, like the FF heroes, are coming from. Case in point: Cloud. I'll never understand how he became so deluded and confused about his identity. I'm far more prone to believe Riou Genkaku's adventures than Cloud Strife's.

Now let me play Devil's Advocate for a second and say that the Silent Hero system is outdated for games with spoken dialouge, like S4. Everyone around Hero IV talks, but he doesn't. Yes, he is supposed to be your extension into the S4 world, but why not open up scenes of him speaking based upon what choice you made? I just don't see how a bunch of speaking characters can read the mute hero's mind and react accordingly.

One time I can think of laughing from this complex was when you're doing the Banner Village quest to recruit McDohl. Since I got Gremio, I'll be using him instead of Ellie in this example. Gremio did most of the talking for McDohl during S1, but I was hoping that McDohl would gain a voice since you're not playing as him anymore in S2. Lo and behold, McDohl is STILL mute! What's the point of that!? You're Riou now, not McDohl!

Not only that, but Gremio did all the talking for both McDohl and Riou while they pursued the bandits. Like... I don't get it. Why not have McDohl and Gremio do the talking for Riou, since you're not playing as McDohl anymore?

I'll mention a couple of times that the Silent Hero complex bothered me in SIV. Highlight below.

1. When Snowe offers the torch to Hero IV, and he waves his hands around stupidly with his mouth in a silly 'O'. It was like, "Wait, is this MY reaction or HIS reaction?" I thought it was one of the dumbest examples of Silent Hero Syndrome in a Spoken Dialouge Game.

2. When Hero IV and Chiepoo are in the baths. Hero IV has to come alone, yet Chiepoo is explaining his lines for him. This bothered me in that Hero IV wasn't capable of speaking for himself or with Chiepoo.

Now for my opinion on the Trinity Sight system. I prefer this over the Silent Hero in that you get to see the POVs of all three characters... and not just the characters, but the factions they represent. Hugo represented for the Grasslands, Chris for Zexen, and Geddoe for neutrality.

With Hugo, I could see how the Grasslanders were struggling to survive against the Zexens after Karaya was burned down. On the other hand, I could see Chris trying to defend Iksay Village from the Lizard Clan's attack. Neither are right nor wrong. You get to see their motivations and morals for doing these things.

With Geddoe, he remained indifferent and investigative, rather than vengeful, although he does change after he reveals his True Lightning Rune. He didn't side with Grassland or Harmonia: he primarily sided against Harmonia and the Destroyers later because his group found out bits of the truth the soonest.

Now if I were in charge of putting in a POV system, I would made it a Dual Sight System rather than a Trinity Sight, in that you get to see things in the eyes of the Crown/Ruling Party, and those of the Liberation Army. For Suikoden II, I would have Riou as the primary focus still, but there would be times when you could decide if you wanted to see what Highland was doing and what the Highlanders were thinking, or you could play as certain Highlanders for a brief time.

This should have been used in SIV, since the Kooluk and Graham Cray were far too underdeveloped, even with the scenes they got.
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"Luca Blight, patron saint of population decrease." -- Benit, MST149

Benit149: First Lady of Addervon, Princess of Slight Fever, defender of the Nameless.

[Effect]

Personally I don't care for the Silent Hero, which could be why I enjoyed Suikoden 3 so much with the Trinity Sight system. Granted I was watching a story unfold but you were still deciding how it would be told.

While I don't mind picking options in the Silent Hero system but at times it makes no sense. When someone is yelling at your or talking down to you in a game you just sit there and take it. You as the player don't wan to take this but are forced to watch it or deliever a one liners that either completely turn the situation around or just make you look foolish while the other game characters give off speeches. Its a double-edge sword really. While you are the silent hero, there are many times where its hard to get into the game. Same with characters that talk for themsleves, sometimes you don't like what they do but you still are able to direct the direction of the story to some degree.

A dual sight sytem or something like it would be nice in the future. Or at least make your character talkable or allow you to pick which dialogue tree he or she will follow instead of it being one liners. But not go to far that he or she ends up like Tidus where he keeps going and going.

[Child of The Sea God]

Well having a silent hero may have been okay for the games back then. Now it's a different story though, I just think it's corny no matter what anyone says if you have a game where characters will actually talk and the main character doesn't say one thing.
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Life is like a play, you're given the role that fate hands to you.
-Me

[kuwaizair]

Having a silent hero and you being him is no fun when you don't play the game with a buddy. you know even if one watches and the other plays, its like viewing a movie togher, then you can have him say silly things, and somone will experance it with you.

Its pretty funny to see what people do to underdeveloped, silent heros. (suikoden4 journal RP) but yeh, when I played one game the hero wouln't shut up. sure I had other chatty heros, but this one game, he woun't shut up. again, I'd watch my friend play lots of games like Crono Trigger and Secrete of Mana. so...it was a shock.
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few runes short of a set of 27

[Aurelien]

I think I prefer silent hero if it was done properly. Having silent hero would mean that the hero responded once in a while and most likely never initiated a conversation by saying something first, so we would know the hero's personality throughout responses to certain comments/questions, and also through the actions of the hero himself.

Now to make it "properly done", IMO the silent hero must have:
1. Variety in choices. Say for example, we would have choices that would make the hero as a talkative person, an anti-social person, a normal polite person, or a rude person. Of course more choices would be welcome, but I think 4 choices is the normal amount of choices in an RPG.
2. Choices must be relevant and not useless. So in a sense, I expect the choices to have meaning instead of just a one-word response. Choosing different choice would give different reply. Choosing different action would result in different outcome. Last but not least, the choices should affect the small things (for example, having a rude hero would make the townspeople's dialogue become different than having a polite hero, etc).
3. More interaction during recruitment. Suikoden has lots of characters to recruit, and I felt that more interaction between the hero and the SoD would give better personality to the silent hero. It would also show the contrast between the personality of one SoD with the other (for example, say Hix might not mind being bossed around by the hero, but Clive might not. So the relationship between the hero and Hix would be different than the hero with Clive).

In conclusion, I think I'd rather have a silent hero if we're given the chance to shape the hero into how we want him to be.
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~City-States of Jowston and Tinto Republic~
06.06.2004 - 20.01.2008

[Arcana]

[Aurelien]

[Arcana]

Okay, so you've established. Suikoden is linear.

If Suikoden is linear, and basically moulds the hero into a statue that the character designers already had in mind, then why bother with the silent hero? The game's linear. We know the hero isn't us. Is it really just because you don't want to have any moral or ethnical reasons to understand the hero's personal perspective? The heroes all have histories. It's not my history - it's his. Then why bother not giving him a name, not giving him a personality, not giving him personal thoughts, feelings, and emotions? You can't relate to an empty bag - you can watch it, but you don't get emotionally involved in it.

You can tell so much more of a story from the point of view of a good, string character who has motivations and opinions. Suikoden III - more characterization than the other games combined. Geddoe's quiet, but he has a history and a past. You might relate to him, you might not. But at least you can understand his motivations and his opinons.

Imagine if you watched a movie (since movies are linear like Suikoden) that featured a silent hero. The screenwriters gave him a face, a past, and skills. How good do you think this movie could be? How much could it improve if you make the hero talk?

This is why I think a character with personality - especially something like Trinity Sight - is superior for any game that's linear.
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Woo, 2000 posts as of Tuesday, 2007 August 28.

[Neclord]