So...sell me on Suikoden

[Kekoa Alejandro]

So, I'm here (despite having no familiarity with this series) for reasons that I'd like to say are complicated, but they're really not. They're pretty simple, pretty good, and ultimately irrelevant to this discussion I would imagine.

This is not because of any lack of interest in RPGs; trust me, this cannot be said of me. RPGs are all I've ever played; I was raised on Chrono Trigger and Earthbound, Final Fantasy 4 and 6, Soul Blazer and Illusion of Gaia, Lufia 1 and 2, Ogre Battle and Secret of Mana, and dammit, I have cartridges for all of the above. I've played a number for the PS1 and 2, and if I didn't play it there's a good chance I watched my brother do so.

That said, I won't be a hard convert to make. Of all the RPGs I have ever played, there has only been *one* I did not enjoy, only *one* I would loathe playing again; to give you some perspective, I enjoyed Final Fantasy: Mystic Quest, Secret of Evermore, Secret of the Stars, and a vast array of other games that most people revile at best. So yeah, a game has to be Godawful for me to dislike it. ...kudos to the first one to name the one RPG I did not enjoy! :D

The Suikoden series *is* on the exceedingly small list of games we deem worthy of owning that we have not already obtained - we've just had no luck in obtaining it. I'm rather familiar with the joy of explaining something you love to someone who knows little of it but seeks to rectify that, and also I'm curious, so I figured I'd ask here.

What's this series like? I ask in a number of ways - the general genre, the type and quality of plots, characters, aesthetics, music, gameplay, and about anything else I can't remember. Ah, yes - themes as well. What would you say are the primary themes of the individual Suikoden games and those of the greater series as well?

[Aurelien]

Some things that could give you a picture about what Suikoden is:
1. Involving 108 Star of Destiny to be recruited. Around 70% of them are playable characters.
2. Most likely, the story would involve a grey area rather than blatant good vs evil.
3. The characters are definitely diverse (from the appearance, background, fighting style, etc).
4. You have a headquarter for the recruited characters to hang out.
5. The story of the series (so far 4 games) all happened in the same world (though different plot, nations and time).
6. For the theme, I think there are 2 main themes of Suikoden series, and they are the 108 Star of Destiny and the 27 True Runes (a game usually has 1 or 2 main True Runes involved in the plot).

I hope that helps to give you a rough idea about what the series is all about.
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~City-States of Jowston and Tinto Republic~
06.06.2004 - 20.01.2008

[Neclord]

[Kekoa Alejandro]

Feel free to spoil it for me. I rarely get to play a game through before my brother does, and if he's playing it I have to watch it. So...yeah. I'll live.

Hmmn...I suppose I need to explain what I mean by theme. It's a statement a piece makes - usually about life or human nature. It properly should be a complete sentence - so, "love" cannot be a theme, but "love is corrupted by base instincts" or "one cannot love one thing unconditionally and others conditionally - either one's love is conditional for any given entity, or it is unconditional and universally applied" can be. It most often isn't expressly stated anywhere in the work (although it may be in simpler stories, stories for children, so on and so forth), rather it must be determined by careful evaluation of the piece.

I'll be generous and let sentence fragments and thematic subjects (rather than statements) fly, because I'm nice like that. ^_^

[Aurelien]

I think if you want to be spoiled, it would be easier for you to go to Gamefaqs, and read the reviews there of Suikoden I to Suikoden IV. That way you would get the whole picture easily. And if you have particular question about particular things, feel free to discuss it here to get the answers.
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~City-States of Jowston and Tinto Republic~
06.06.2004 - 20.01.2008

[Vextor]

For me the theme Suikoden brings up repeatedly is the duality of all things, such as how they bring up both the bright side and dark side of love in the backdrop of war. Suikoden is essentially a series that depicts how people are cast into the pits of dread where it seems like the whole world is against you, while also portraying hope and triumph. For example, love (or the angst from the lack of it) is at the source of all suikoden villain's motives, and the very same motives are present on the hero's side. Suikoden doesn't give you the pre-packaged formula of clear cut "bad guys are bad coz they were always evil" against "good guyz are always good coz they just are." The reason why each character gets involved in the war is given, and the reasons are quite diverse (especially in Suikoden 2 and 3), which gives you a very rich mix of characters whos plots intertwine.

As far as an RPG you may have possibly hated, how about "Traysia"? It was for the Genesis, but it had a bug that made it impossible to finish. That'd make it quite impossible to enjoy, won't it?

[Benit149]

The 'love' theme isn't terribly prominent in the actual games, but the same can't be said for fandom. Aside from that, the usual themes involve war and the struggles that are necessary to achieve peace. I hope I don't say much by mentioning that in every single Suikoden, some characters die. Casualties are a fact in war, as are betrayals and double-crossings, and there are plenty of those too.

Your 'hero' characters are not world-shaking figures: just ordinary citizens who're somehow caught up in the mix, become leaders of their army, and inspire people to rise up against the enemy. This character has a special star of the 108: the Tenkai Star, the star that is destined to lead the other 107. Tradtionally, every playable hero character, AKA 'the Tenkai Star', has a True Rune that Black Pesmerga mentioned: Suikoden III somewhat breaks this tradition, but it returns in IV.

The typical 'save the world' plot doesn't adhere to Suikoden because your aim is to free a certain land from corruption or destruction, not the entire world. So having 108+ characters in each installment makes for a cast so diverse that it's impossible to NOT find someone you like. And it adds another fact of war: to fight one, you need a serious army, not a bunch of superpowered teenagers.

I could go on and on about Suikoden facts, but it's best to take our word for it, not just because we're Suikoden fans, but because we've played other games and have yet to see one as originally executed as Suikoden.
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"Luca Blight, patron saint of population decrease." -- Benit, MST149

Benit149: First Lady of Addervon, Princess of Slight Fever, defender of the Nameless.

[Kekoa Alejandro]

Hmmn...some nice replies! It gives me a good idea of what I'd be expecting. At least, I believe so...

[Beecham]

Wow, I can't believe no one mentioned the concept of "fate." What one word is more central to the concept of Suikoden than fate?

Basically, since I don't have a lot of time to write my thoughts here, the concept of the Suikoden series is that no man is powerless against fate. The reason the Tenkai [the aforementioned hero of each game] exists, is to gather the Stars of Destiny and in doing so move the wheels of fate. The True Runes themselves are near god like entities bound inside Runes that often need to be borne in order to affect the world [at least, from the evidence we've seen]. But we've seen the Bearers of the True Runes manage to fight the Runes themselves, to regain some control of their lives and the lives of those around them [not to mention the nations for whom they are fighting].

Help me out here, someone. My copy of Genso Suikoden I is downstairs. What's Leknaat's line again? Something along the lines of "No man's existance is without meaning?" But there's more to it; I just forget the exact wording :)

[Arcana]

A lot of people mention Suikoden and duality, but I don't see it as clearly as others tend to do so. You're almost ALWAYS the kid who opposes the "huge evil empire". Granted, the ambiguity of villains has been increased lately (I haven't played IV, but III had a pretty good balanced villain), but I can't say the same of II and I as having good, balanced villains that you cry as you kill because you feel sorry for them.

It discusses some moral issues and some of the ambiguity of war, and the characters go through ethical conflicts and lots of emotional roller-coasters, but the games themselves don't do a good job of presenting a good two-sided story. No one here ever sympathizes with Luca, and the game itself doesn't lend any good evidence toward "Harmonia's just a country living in the world". People usually end up creating the grey after they finish the game, but in the game itself, there's usually little doubt (and little choice) about what side you choose. You're almost always a part of the "Rebels", fighting the "Big Empire who has Super-magical power".

That in itself is fine, but I don't think it's as grey as many people like to claim.

One thing that I must tribute to Suikoden is that, in four games in the series, not once does your main character have to fight in a fighting tournament of any kind. :) The battles in the games are fast, so you usually don't dwell on how much they kind of suck. Characters level up quickly, too, so your newly-recruited Level 1 character can get up to speed in an instant. The world is very detailed, and it's also continuous and developing and evolving, which is probably a very big reason why it has such a strong following - any game that continues where it left off from before will eventually draw a strong group who follows every detail. The planet isn't tiny, and it's not a torus, and you can't sail around it in 20 minutes. You don't have typical braindead dungeons (most of the time anyway) like the "ice dungeon", the "fire dungeon", and the "earth dungeon". You often go to missions to actually DO things, like make negotiations, propose war plans, or save political figures, instead of "getting the Sword of Kabarabbalaata-jinto" so you can fulfill the legend of "Murakaka" and slay the legendary beast "Kururulippa".

Not really gray, in my opinion, but much more politically-oriented and grounded in a kind of reality. Not reality as in real-life, but reality as in the things you see can be related to real life.
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Woo, 2000 posts as of Tuesday, 2007 August 28.

[Solitude]

Well seeming as most people have already dealt with the overall theme of the game I will go into the battle system and what not.

In the Suikoden series (except in the fourth installment) you have up to 6 characters in your party at a time. Each has his own strengths and weeknesses so it is fun to mix and match your vast collection to see which characters work best. You can make a team of complete powerhouses, or make a team of awesome mages.

The battles themselves are pretty quick but are also entertaining and don't make you wish that the battles were never implemented into the game. You can customize what types of magic a character has but each character also has his/her own affinity level with magic. You can also combine the magical and physical attacks of two characters to deal so pretty devistating damage. That and the spells and combo attacks are quite fun to watch.

Sometimes travel can be tedious (S4 I didn't find out about the R2 button until I was nearly done with the game) but for the most part its not to bad. And after a certain point in the game you won't notice travel at all lol. The dungeons are fun to go through and even provide a challenge unlike some other RPGs.

Music wise the series has great music that totaly fits the situation that you are in. It really adds nice touches and strengthens whatever feeling you are feeling at the moment. Be it sadness, hatred, or excitement.

As for the RPG you hated. Beyond the Beyond? Most godawful game ever. I myself couldn't even get more than an hour into it without turning it off and not attempting to play it for another year or so.

[sybillious]

that's a great selling point on the appeal issue, mib; the fact that the battle system has never been complicated-satisfying enough to give you a kill fix, but not overwhelming that you have to sort things out before, during and after play.

the fact that they are also 'evolving' the series *although, not always successfully*shows a willingness to implement new factors into gameplay, keeping things fresh and drawing new players into the series. many who have been drawn to game x are drawn to other parts of the series, widening its fanbase-crucial to any series' survival in today's market.
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prinny...DOOD!

gotta gotta get a...SPICE WEASEL!

to paraphrase my fellow mod, parallax:
I hate my job with the passionately burning intensity of a thousand fiery suns.

[Vextor]

[Aurelien]

[Beecham]

Wow, I know she said she doesn't mind spoilers, but there's going to be nothing left of the plot of any of the games except some of 3 and all of 4 if we keep this up ^_^;;;