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Luceit
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 Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 12:50 am Post subject: |
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Sadly, what the defense is saying is true. Well, I'll try to explain the method behind those statements from what I learned about libel suits in media law.
First the most simple. "and everything else is either impossible to disprove (as in emotionally scarring the men involved)"
They're stating that it's opinion, which is a valid libel defense. If the statements are opinion, they can't sue for it. It extends from opinion when it gets to actual factual statements, such as the guy was a cheater. It is protected from libel, although it's not really a First Amendment issue, since it's a civil suit.
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The way law works boggles me sometimes. I accept that what the lawyer said is true, but I still say it's idiotic. However, according to what I read, the extensions, such as the part where the women start talking about the men being *insert swear word here or a racist remark* and also being dirty creeps is apparently protected underneath the First Amendment. This was the part where some men claimed that what the women said about them was hurting their reputation.
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"they don't have enough status to sue for discrimination!"
If it were really a discrimination case, the defense might have a point. There are certain groups that have standing to sue for discrimination, namely minorities and women.
However, this is not a real discrimination case, it's a libel case. Both sides have equal opportunity to state their case on the website and neither faces any more barrier than the other.
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Yeah, but who's listening to who? This reminds me of those childish battles on other online forums that I go to where people go on one side, start saying the other side sucks and the wage flame wars. Frankly, I think this one action of making the website is only going to cause more trouble than it's worth, ethically speaking.
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The first argument, however, it what she will likely to win on. There was a New York Supreme Court case that dealt with this, stating that Prodigy (an ISP) was responsible for a libelous statement made by a third party. Following the case, Congress enacted a law that reversed it, making them not liable, even if they are notified that the material is defamatory and neglecting to remove it. As such, online ISP and forum providers were deemed not responsible for information provided by a third party. This has been upheld in course, so unless the defendants get the law changes, it's not likely to be any different in this case unless congress decides to make a law to the opposite.
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Sad reality of life isn't it?
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Kai Ver' Xion
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 1:20 am Post subject: |
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*sigh* You've gotta be kidding me..
So basically this site is suppose to be for women to flame guys who have done things like abused/assulted/raped them and stuff of that sort? (Please correct me if I'm wrong)...and instead of going to the authorities about these guys..they just talk trash about them on a website?
Yes I can understand that it may be embarassing for a woman to come forward when something like that happens..but usually its embarassing to the point of where they don't want to talk about it at all.
It sounds to me like these are just a bunch of angry girls who are entirely over emotional about a breakup. I've never understood why girls take it to the level of having to do things like spreading rumors. I've seen it so many times as like an almost natural reaction for a girl when she isn't the one to initiate the break up.
Bringing those rumors to the internet is just something else. On that site..they are just that: rumors. Theres no way for them to prove any of that as true information...and even though I serrious can't understand why anyone would ever take things like that as valid information about a person...not everyone is like me. I think the guys have a valid point that this has the potential to really effect them in matters of future employments and stuff of that sort.
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Luceit
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 1:38 am Post subject: |
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So basically this site is suppose to be for women to flame guys who have done things like abused/assulted/raped them and stuff of that sort? (Please correct me if I'm wrong)...and instead of going to the authorities about these guys..they just talk trash about them on a website?
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?The original intent of the website was to warn other women about men they can't trust because they flirt, dumped them after leeching off their money, and so on. However, judging by the quality of the posts there, I'd say that Ash's Theory of Altogether Too Free Speech has taken effect.
The theory: At anytime people are allowed to speak whatever they want with no supervision, no matter how noble the goal is, the intended effect is degraded into pure idiocy.
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Yes I can understand that it may be embarassing for a woman to come forward when something like that happens..but usually its embarassing to the point of where they don't want to talk about it at all.
It sounds to me like these are just a bunch of angry girls who are entirely over emotional about a breakup. I've never understood why girls take it to the level of having to do things like spreading rumors. I've seen it so many times as like an almost natural reaction for a girl when she isn't the one to initiate the break up.
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What they don't notice is that they gave these 'total losers with 2 inch *you know what** second and even third chances. Seriously, if you know he's a tard like you said he is, just break up with him! What you're doing is malicious to them especially if what you said isn't true!
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Bringing those rumors to the internet is just something else. On that site..they are just that: rumors. Theres no way for them to prove any of that as true information...and even though I serrious can't understand why anyone would ever take things like that as valid information about a person...not everyone is like me. I think the guys have a valid point that this has the potential to really effect them in matters of future employments and stuff of that sort.
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Some men have already claimed that their reputations have been hurt. One of them was a lawyer whose girlfriend claimed was gay and had herpes. Is gay, and has a girlfriend. Yeah, RIGHT.
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Sniper_Zegai
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 1:57 am Post subject: |
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Its not really the things that said that bothers me. Yes if someone said something like "Sniper_Zegai is a peadophile" I would take offense as anyone else would but I would'nt sue over it but if becuase I know it is'nt true but if someone said "Sniper_Zegai is a peadophile, heres his, name, picture, address and place of work" you can start to see what my point is.
If this website morderated and said "We are'nt responsoble for anyones opinion but we wont allow people to post personal information" Then I'd be cool with that becuase whether its true or not, their would be some sort of balance.
The internet is full of alsorts. And sure people get made fun of all the time, but the truth is nobody really cares. But when someone you know is posting your picture and personal details and saying something that could be untrue and hurtful to your reputation in the real world then a line has to be drawn. And websites like this should'nt be allowed to do so.
And as for the impacted reputation and employer stuff. That is'nt paranoia or some sort of myth. Employers, Firms, Companies the kind of places that would hire you after big expensive educations are begining to realise just how useful the internet can be. Usually they google people to view the personal websites of that particular person. But if this came up, you never know. But one things for sure if I went to apply for a medical internship and they said "Have you been tested for herpes by any chance" I'd be more than a little pissed.
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Amyral
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 2:57 am Post subject: |
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| Luceit wrote: |
The way law works boggles me sometimes. I accept that what the lawyer said is true, but I still say it's idiotic. However, according to what I read, the extensions, such as the part where the women start talking about the men being *insert swear word here or a racist remark* and also being dirty creeps is apparently protected underneath the First Amendment. This was the part where some men claimed that what the women said about them was hurting their reputation. |
I'm on the fence a little about that. Yeah, it may hurt their reputation, but the simple fact is, any time anyone says anything negative about him, it could hurt his reputation. I mean, the purpose of the First Amendment is to allow people to express opinions, and, strictly speaking, if what they say is really opinion, it should be protected. I like the First Amendment, it's necessary in me doing my job. In that regards, what they said is protected.
However, the other part of me thinks it's complete and utter bullshit that people can post anonymously, thus making it practically impossible to actually take action against the people who could actually be prosecuted for it, and the site owner is free and clear of actually providing a forum for it and not have any way to be held accountable.
| Luceit wrote: |
Yeah, but who's listening to who? This reminds me of those childish battles on other online forums that I go to where people go on one side, start saying the other side sucks and the wage flame wars. Frankly, I think this one action of making the website is only going to cause more trouble than it's worth, ethically speaking. |
Well, in that case, whose listening doesn't really matter. In theory, they both have the same chance.
| Luceit wrote: |
| Sad reality of life isn't it? |
Indeed |
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Luceit
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 3:55 am Post subject: |
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I'm on the fence a little about that. Yeah, it may hurt their reputation, but the simple fact is, any time anyone says anything negative about him, it could hurt his reputation. I mean, the purpose of the First Amendment is to allow people to express opinions, and, strictly speaking, if what they say is really opinion, it should be protected. I like the First Amendment, it's necessary in me doing my job. In that regards, what they said is protected.
However, the other part of me thinks it's complete and utter bullshit that people can post anonymously, thus making it practically impossible to actually take action against the people who could actually be prosecuted for it, and the site owner is free and clear of actually providing a forum for it and not have any way to be held accountable.
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Considering that my future major is going to be communications, I love my freedom of speech a lot. However, having read ethics, I realize that some things just shouldn't be spoken of, especially when the intended effect is not a good one. I'm sure at least some of the women there did it out of malicious intent and their selfish actions will hurt these men for life. I'm well aware that any kind of opinion can damage a person, but there's a major difference between saying that someone's dressing style sucks and that they're total losers in life and no one should ever love them because to any kind of extent, opinions are based in reason, however obscure.
For the second one, yup, total BS. The examples I read yesterday were so hilarious, I don't imagine anyone would listen to them. It just sounds like some peeved girl wanting to air her laundry in public, rather than a well-educated post on why the person should never be trusted. Honestly, the way they type makes me imagine that they are high school students who just broke up when they saw their boyfriend with another girl or got knocked up rather than real women who put a lot of commitment in their relationships and didn't deserve to be hurt.
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Well, in that case, whose listening doesn't really matter. In theory, they both have the same chance.
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In that case, they both have the same chance of being heard: Nothing. :|
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Last edited by Luceit on Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:08 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Sniper_Zegai
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 6:58 am Post subject: |
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Luceit you say your major is going to be communications? What actual job are you aiming for?
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Luceit
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not sure yet, but journalism sounds like a good bet. Of course, if censorship at Malaysia gets any more stupid, I'll have to go elsewhere.
It's when websites like this pop up that I'm happy Maalysia has strict censorship laws, however stupid it is.
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Sniper_Zegai
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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I ask this because your actual line of work could be affected by someone posting on this website.
i.e. You apply at a local news station, or television studio to become a full fledged reporter. This is clearly a job that many people want and you are just one of many. You seem like a good bet, so they google you to see if anything crops up. Low and behold there is a website with your details on it along with photos saying that had cheated several times and might be gay.
If the website did'nt allow personal details then you could just deny it or say it was a coincedence. But because this website owner does'nt moderate the content. You may lose out on a great job based on info that may not be true.
I think freedom of speech is great but even simple opinion can have a lasting impact. And if real damage can be done to peoples lives based on these opinions then something has to be done.
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Luceit
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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I understand that and that's why I oppose it. This way of 'getting revenge' is very unethical and also abuses freedom of speech (yes, I do believe that it can be abused). Even if the man is not gulity, society will look at him in negative ways and that may well cost him his job. Ladies, your love life is your private issue; don't ruin someone else's entire life just because of it. An eye for an eye will only leave us all blind.
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Wraithrune
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:38 am Post subject: |
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Wow.... How scary!! I was just browsing through this topic, never realise there are websites like the one you stated where the freedom of speech is so severly abused.
Anyway, isn't what they are posting sexism? I thought there's a law against that or something?
But so far, I've never met any girls who are that vindictive...
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Amyral
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 3:13 am Post subject: |
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| Wraithrune wrote: |
| Anyway, isn't what they are posting sexism? I thought there's a law against that or something? |
Uhh, no, there's no law against sexism. People are allowed to have whatever opinions they want to have, at least in the country of origin of this website, and express them, as long as they are real opinions.
| Sniper_Zegai wrote: |
| I think freedom of speech is great but even simple opinion can have a lasting impact. And if real damage can be done to peoples lives based on these opinions then something has to be done. |
Like what? I mean, where's the line? Any negative opinion that's publicized can have a negative impact, so do you not allow people to post negative opinions where they identify a person? Sure, people will look at sites like this and think that it should be limited, I'm not of that opinion. I'm a journalist as well, and I think the first road of censorship of opinion is one that's best not traveled, as it's nearly always done to prevent negative opinions of those who have power.
I don't know the law in Malaysia, so I won't comment on it.
Now, for all those who are saying that employers will type a name in a search engine and this will come up, I don't know, I've taken names of people on search engines, exactly as they are listed on the site, and it hasn't been coming up in google, so I think unless they are searching for them on that site specifically, their names may not come up on search engines. |
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Luceit
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 4:04 am Post subject: |
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Like what? I mean, where's the line? Any negative opinion that's publicized can have a negative impact, so do you not allow people to post negative opinions where they identify a person? Sure, people will look at sites like this and think that it should be limited, I'm not of that opinion. I'm a journalist as well, and I think the first road of censorship of opinion is one that's best not traveled, as it's nearly always done to prevent negative opinions of those who have power.
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As far as I'm concerned, a damaging opinion is one that brings up sensitive issues uneccessarily (example, simply complaining about Malay rights without legitimate concern), is based on shaky ground (a case was this scandalous SMS where a woman claimed that a group of Muslims were going to be made Christians) or one that is meant simply to cause havoc ('I hate all Malays/Chinese/Indians and I think they should all burn in the fiery pits of hell!'). Now THAT would be something that should have action taken, as opposed to simple everyday issues like 'What's up with Indians and roti canai?' which may be annoying to Indians who love their roti canai (and the rest of us who also love it), but is certainly not negative enough to warrant action.
I strongly believe that the best way to encourage freedom of speech is not to let people speak whatever they want to speak with no control, but to advise them to speak their mind and also consider what they want to say, because if they don't, chances are that they'll regret it later. Some people are too afraid to speak because other people call them names, and maybe this will help them.
For my part, I think that websites such as those should be better maintained as some of that information may be maliciously inputted. The negative effects here far outweigh the benefits, and as such, action should be taken to make sure that the information is accurate.
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Sniper_Zegai
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:47 am Post subject: |
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Amyral I'm not saying that people should be silenced left, right and centre for saying negative things.
What I'm saying is when I post my opinion or say an opinion that can have a lasting effect can have a very negative impact on someones life, maybe there should be more laws to control that sort of thing. Its fine hiding behind "my right to freedom of speech" if I've already ruined someones life.
Stuff that is recorded on television and the written word IS controlled such as slander and libel? But I can still post untrue and hurtful information and then when it actually hurts someones job, marriage or family, I can just turn around and say "Hey its my right". If they were posting the info and only limited personal info was posted then I would be cool becuase at least the person being attacked would have a chance to defend themselves.
As for the google thing you may be right. There are plenty of people in this world and if your name is John Smith or Georg Bush I think your gonna be OK. But that still does'nt change the fact I could piss of some girl at work or at a party and they could post this false info about me and leak it to my boss, girlfreind or kids. Whats to stop them.
And for Luciet I think verifying this info is an act of futility. But balance can be attained by controlling what goes on.
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Urn
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:35 am Post subject: |
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Personally, I think a website like this is fine. People post all sorts of things on the web all the time. If we are going to protect freedom of speech we cannot be selective of what sort of speech should be allowed to remain free. Free speech is free speech. Putting too many stipulations on what a person can say publicly (or on the web) only convolutes things and makes it more complicated for people to get their message to the public.
The National Inquirer spreads lies and maliciousness all the time and yet it still remains in circulation. If an employer or potential employer reads this site and decides to fire you because of it, then there exist a chance for a suit due to the fact that it is an improper means for termination and each employee is subject to due process and must be given fair and just means explaining the reasons behind their sudden termination, or at least that is the way it is in the U.S.
The web is a free market and it is under different regulations than general media. That is why forums like this can exist without prosecution because it has the right to exist according to the will of its creator. Slander and libel are not considered issues for a website unless it is of merit, such as washingtonpost.com or cnn.com. I doubt that a website called dontdatehim.com will ever gain the publicity or the serious media attention to ever warrant true attention as a source of merit.
If you argue that this site shouldn't exist then we would have to argue that many other agenda based sites have no merit and should not exist due to their potentially harmful messages. Again, free speech is free speech and the web is one such avenue that should not be muddled with too much legalities about whether a person should curtail the message they portray unless it is a site of merit which is a significant information source for the public in its entirety.
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