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Weyoun
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 Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2005 8:35 am Post subject: |
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| Arcana wrote: |
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| Alot of people i know said that American made video games are the worst of them all, i agree with that |
Wow, that's kind of a shallow view - to say that a game sucks because it's made in a certain country. American RPGs have a much different emphasis than Japanese RPG's. Just becaues they're different doesn't mean that they suck. Apparently, Knights of the Old Republic is among the best RPGs nowadays, according to one of my friends who has been around to play Final Fantasy and the other traditional Japanese RPGs. |
I dont think all the American made video games are bad. I do agree that that the Kinghts of the Old Republic is a really good game, but there are some American video games that are just the worst of them all.[/quote]
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Kekoa Alejandro
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| Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2005 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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I have to say that simply by virtue of making far more RPGs than America, Japan has certainly made the worst of them all. Don't forget that a lot of games never get imported - and with good reason. A lot of them are just miserably bad.
And, Hell, some old RPGs often cited as bad examples of American RPGs - I'm thinking Secret of Evermore, here - are at least fun to play, even if they weren't innovative, even if the story wasn't all that great.
Damn it, the Japanese made Unlimited Saga. Yeah. I think they're light-years ahead of the U.S. when it comes to awful, awful games. |
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Blackjack
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| Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2005 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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I happen to like Unlimited Saga. I like all of the SaGa series, actually.
Which in and of itself is a very unpopular opinion. :D
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Kekoa Alejandro
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| Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2005 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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| I have every bit of respect for someone who can like Unlimited Saga - it takes a special kind of person. Not every part of Unlimited Saga is bad, of course not - the music, characters and story are clearly very good. This only makes the fact that the gameplay is so bad more infuriating - I know all that great stuff is there, but I can't reach it. If you can force yourself through that gameplay, good - I have great respect for you. But for most RPG fans, this game is just Godawful. |
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Blackjack
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| Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2005 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not "forcing" myself through anything. I like the gameplay. It's hard, and frustrating and rewarding when you win. I think more games need to actually be difficult and focused on gameplay. Maybe not to the degree of Unlimited Saga, because that'd turn off a lot of casual gamers, which would lower sales, which would result in fewer games (Surely some people here remember how it was for RPGs in the SNES days?), but more than this "Make a sandwich or something while you wait for this movie to end" stuff a lot of games throw at us.
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Arcana
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| Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2005 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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I bought Unlimited SaGa and have a limited appreciation for it... I think it would have been way better if they took out all of the random traps, and given you a "Continue", where you could continue if you died with the skills you got but no treasures, just so it doesn't feel like you've wasted an hour of your life when you're killed. :)
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Sophita
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| Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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I rented Unlimited SaGa and after fifteen minutes of playing it, I took it out of my PS2, got up, and went back to the store. I liked the graphical style of the game but I had no idea what was going on and when I got into battle I could not really figure the system out. It might have helped if I'd had the manual, but alas, the place where I rent games never has photocopied the manuel and put it in the rental case for the renting gamer. There was no introduction at all and it was not easy to understand; very unuserfriendly. I suspect there was a large amount of backstory I wasn't getting. I respect the person who could get through to it, but that person wasn't me. I'm very glad I rented it instead of buying it, as it was only a few dollars lost and not, say, 50 dollars. Maybe when it gets down to 9-10 dollars (considering how many people haaated it, I don't doubt that will be soon) I'll buy it, read the manual and give it another chance because I did like the art style, and the story, while confusing, didn't look bad. But for now...Boy am I glad I passed it up.
As for my own unpopular opinions:
1) I actually like Final Fantasy but I don't think it's the be all end all of RPGs. I don't tend to buy them until about 6 months to a year after their release, when the game stores are flooded with copies of 'em and the price goes down. I think a lot of people unfairly malign them just because they happen to be the biggest titles in the RPG market today. I think FFVII was a good - but overated - game, and I wish it would stop winning every RPG contest involving it, ever. It came out, it's been played, it's over. Get over it.
The only FF's I can honestly say I regret playing were FFVIII and FFX-2. FFVIII because the story was incredibly weak (though I liked Selphie, Quistis, and Seifer, and I've grown to appreciate Laguna) and though the whole Ultimaticia thing came out of left field; the part where Edea is revealed to be all the main characters nursemaid was the part where the story officially jumped the shark for me. FFX-2 I disliked because I thought they ruined a perfectly good story by tacking on an unnecessary sequel. Almost all of the characters seemed to change their personalities entirely for ...no reason at all, except that their stories were basically finished in the first game and Square needed them to do something.
I have no desire to play the first two FF's and can't figure out why anyone really would.
2) Xenosaga? Good movie - bad game. And no, all the religious symbolism strewn about doesn't make it any better.
3) The Shadow Hearts series is one of the best and most original RPGs being sold to date. Shadow Hearts: Covenant is the best RPG to come out this year. I don't understand why it doesn't sell, as it seems to be a great meeting point between Final Fantasy and Resident Evil.
4) Disgaea was funny but flawed. The story doesn't seem to be too much of a concern, other than "Gee! Let's poke fun at anime stereotypes!" And like all Nippon Ichi games, there's far too much of an emphesis on leveling up and far too little emphesis on plot. Cute game, but seriously? Not the pinnacle of strategy games, on PS2 or any other council.
5) SaGa Frontier? Not as bad as everyone says it is. Has it's deep flaws, but can be actually semi-entertaining to play through.
6) Chrono Cross did not make much sense at all, and even though I enjoyed the game and it's many recruitable characters, all these years later I still don't quite understand what's going on. Chrono Trigger's artwork may have been ugly, but it's plot was actually quite good, especially when you consider when it was released.
7) The main character in games like Knights of the Old Republic are the natural evolution of the silent hero, and IMO any game that features one should at least allow you to customize the look or at least the gender as well as giving possible alignment changes, and characters who like/dislike those alignment changes. If you're going to make me the main character, then let me design them to my liking.
8) Suikoden III? Not the worst Suikoden title or RPG by a longshot. Also, Suikoden II? Needed a better translation. Love both games, but overhyping the flaws of Suikoden III while ignoring the flaws of Suikoden II has always struck me as extremely silly. If Suikoden II weren't so hard to find, I kind of doubt it would be held up as the be all end all pinnacle of Suikoden games. Also, Jeane, Pesmerga, and Yuber are all enigmas no one knows anything much about, for now. Period.
9) I really wish the fighting systems in RPGs involved more than just clicking fight and pointing an enemy. I think it's a reason why I enjoyed Shadow Hearts so much; I actually felt involved in the fighting. I don't see why the trend so far seems to be dumbing down the fighting systems - but it saddens me. For example, I don't know why the Suikoden devopment team have been obsessed with "speeding up" the battles since Suikoden II (first with the buddy system in III, and then going down to 4 members party in IV) - I never felt the battles exactly dragged in the first place. The dumber the battle system, the more of a chore it is.
10) I really wish more RPGs offered more choices in female characters than feisty female and damsel in distress. And for all the fanservice that's been shown to male RPG gamers, it would be nice to see a little bit tossed to the female side - or better yet, to do away with the fanservice at all.
EXTRA SPECIAL BONUS EDIT EDITION:
11) I've never understood the Legend of Zelda series. I've played a little bit of all of them, and none of them have struck my fancy or made me want to play more. They're just ....boring. Oh so very boring. Zzzzz. The series could end tomorrow and I honestly just could not care less. I'm sick of hearing about it, honestly.
12) Metal Gear Solid? Sucked the mightiest suck that ever sucked. That game was patheticly boring, iuncredibly easy, and absolutely worthless in just about every way possible. The story only got worse in the next installment, and the gameplay didn't improve at all. Will never understand why this is a big series; ever.
13) The gamegear was one of the best portable consoles ever made; it was much better than the gameboy in just about every reguard save the library of games available. And the Nomad was a genius idea I wish we'd see more often, but I know we never will.
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Last edited by Sophita on Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:58 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Arcana
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| Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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If you do away with fanservice, the entire Japanese video game industry will collapse! RPGs and Fighting Games, of course, will be the first to go. Outside of that... what else does Japan make in terms of games again...?
Ahh, Disgaea. While I would disagree on the generalization that there's to enough emphasis on plot and too much on levelling up (someone has obviously never played Rhapsody), I agree with everyone who says that the only strategy in Disgaea is to Power Level and pound your opponent to a pulp. There's nothing else there in terms of REAL strategy.
If you want a game that involves strategy and intelligence, though, you just might have to play Tactics Ogre, or Breath of Fire V. Oooooh Breath of Fire V. Best RPG battle system I've seen so far in the history of console gaming. Maybe Shadow Hearts will beat it out since everyone talks about it.
I suppose I could talk more and increase my word count, but I can't really think of anything else I want to say right now even though your post is huge, Sophia, and you bring up so many yummy things to rant and rave about. I think I'm just extremely tired.
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Njord
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| Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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Unlimited Saga was quite confusing for me to, I didn't know what was going around me, so I was just wondering from one place to another.
The graphics and music were cute, the same thing goes for the characters but it wasn't enough for making me play it.
I don't know much about the story because I didn't play much of it but I think it was pretty funny at the beginning.
I only played it once in my friend's house, and it didn't really impress me that much, so I returned it to him.
| Queen Sophia wrote: |
| I have no desire to play the first two FF's and can't figure out why anyone really would. |
Well, the two first games in my opinion are quite interesting, yes it is an old kind of RPG, but it is still pretty good.
The story was simple and catchy (if I was living in that time), graphics and music were okay, and the only thing I didn't like is the battle system in general (it was really tiring and hard in my opinion).
Nonetheless, the two games were decent for a beginning of a huge series.
I didn't finish any of these games mainly because the game play got quite boring after few hours, if it wasn't of that then I'd probably have finished them long ago.
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| Xenosaga? Good movie - bad game. And no, all the religious symbolism strewn about doesn't make it any better. |
I didn't notice many (if any) religious symbols in this game; all I saw is some crucifixes look alike things (I think) and few persons who resemble angels, nothing that religious itself.
The only thing I understood about the story that is about the space and an alien named U-do.
Shadow Hearts had more religious symbols than this game.
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| The Shadow Hearts series is one of the best and most original RPGs being sold to date. Shadow Hearts: Covenant is the best RPG to come out this year. I don't understand why it doesn't sell, as it seems to be a great meeting point between Final Fantasy and Resident Evil. |
I think the reason it doesn't sell is because it is not really for every player, this game is not meant for the younger players because of the many grownups things it contains, and since it also is kind of scary and more violent than normal RPG's then I don't think any parent will let a child play it.
I wouldn't allow my child to play this game (maybe after he get born and grows up since this game is a must to play for every RPGer).
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| I really wish more RPGs offered more choices in female characters than feisty female and damsel in distress. And for all the fanservice that's been shown to male RPG gamers, it would be nice to see a little bit tossed to the female side - or better yet, to do away with the fanservice at all. |
Unfortunately, I can't see this happening any time in the future because it won't benefit any gaming company that much since RPG female gamers are kind of rare.
And even if they were to make a girl game then I don't think many gamers other than girls will buy it, guys usually don't prefer to play as girls.
So, in the end it is quite not going to happen.
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Arcana
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| Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 1:38 am Post subject: |
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| Njord wrote: |
| And even if they were to make a girl game then I don't think many gamers other than girls will buy it, guys usually don't prefer to play as girls. |
Is that actually true?
Maybe I'm horny, or maybe I'm flaming, but ofttimes I'll play the girl's quest, or role-play a female character online, or something like that. It doesn't really bother me that much. A lot of the time, you get to play as the girl simply because she's hot and you'll get to see her on screen, all the time.
And Xenosaga was filled with religious symbolism. Not in just visual form, but in verbal text. The Zohar, the 12 emulators, Abel, and so forth. I think Xenosaga's symbolism was a lot more halphhazard (sp) than Xenogears', though. Xenosaga just kind of tossed them in whenever it felt like them just because it would look kind of cool. No real allusion.
[quote=Sophita]7) The main character in games like Knights of the Old Republic are the natural evolution of the silent hero, and IMO any game that features one should at least allow you to customize the look or at least the gender as well as giving possible alignment changes, and characters who like/dislike those alignment changes. If you're going to make me the main character, then let me design them to my liking.[/quote]
Apparently this is a really good game. I'll have to play it some time. Too bad I own no XBox and no PC.
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Kekoa Alejandro
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| Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 8:34 am Post subject: |
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Maybe I'm horny, or maybe I'm flaming, but ofttimes I'll play the girl's quest, or role-play a female character online, or something like that. It doesn't really bother me that much. A lot of the time, you get to play as the girl simply because she's hot and you'll get to see her on screen, all the time.
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Well, great, that feeds right back into the problem already stated - flat, worthless characters that happen to be hot and have boobs. Yay, equality.
Never mind that in cases where female characters are used that the game and all associated with it seems to divorce itself from the idea of *becoming* that character, which is generally what you do in RPGs - it becomes "guiding" the character, or some such bullplop. Because God forbid they empathize with an attractive woman, actually think of them as a human and not eye candy. Better women than I have pointed this out, though, so I'm bitter.
I'm also quite convinced that female gamers aren't as rare as they're made out to be (especially when it comes to RPGs of the video game variety) - guys often just seem completely unaware of them, or they're actively hiding, or the two genders just end up running in completely different circles. Over the years I've run into too many large, primarily female online roleplaying (that is, actual roleplaying, not VG RPGs) groups to believe the old adage about such girl gamers being rare - they're just running in different circles. |
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Ranadiel
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| Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 9:02 am Post subject: |
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Nonetheless, the two games were decent for a beginning of a huge series.
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I personally found one to be quite painful to play through. It wasn't that interesting system wise, and the story was completely boring. I didn't care too much for two, but I really liked the "level up" system. It is something that I had thought of before I played it and think that it could be really fun if it was refined a little more.
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Because God forbid they empathize with an attractive woman, actually think of them as a human and not eye candy
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That is absolutely right there is no way we could ever allow something like this to happen. It is simply heresy to think something like that that.
Alright enough with the sarcasm. As long as the stereotype of female RPG players being rare remains this will almost always be the case. However I think that there are probably a few games that have a female main character that isn't eye candy. An example I can think of is Wild Arms 3. At least I don't think of Virginia as eye candy.
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I'm also quite convinced that female gamers aren't as rare as they're made out to be
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I go to a school for geeks, and I am aware of a grand total of one female in the entire school that could be considered a gamer to any degree. She occasionally plays RPGs and has beaten one if I remember correctly because she is just a casual gamer who spends more time doing other things. Maybe in other parts of the country they are more common, but I have definatly not seen them.
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Over the years I've run into too many large, primarily female online roleplaying (that is, actual roleplaying, not VG RPGs) groups to believe the old adage about such girl gamers being rare - they're just running in different circles.
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RPing isn't exactly the same thing as playing an RPG. Those people are RPers not gamers. As such they really can't be considered in gamer demographics unless they also play RPGs or some other type of video game. Besides if I'm not mistaken female RPers are quite common. However I haven't spent as much time RPing as I would like, so I suppose it is possible I'm wrong on this.
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Kekoa Alejandro
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| Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 9:20 am Post subject: |
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| An example I can think of is Wild Arms 3. At least I don't think of Virginia as eye candy. |
Virginia is one of the best examples of a heroine in a video game that I've seen in some time. Probably *ever*, in fact. Simply a strong, wonderful character, and I would love to see more like her.
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| I go to a school for geeks, and I am aware of a grand total of one female in the entire school that could be considered a gamer to any degree. |
Not everyone is overt about it, especially in real life. I'm no small gamer in a number of ways, but I essentially never talk about it in public - essentially all of my activity is online. There can be all sorts of reasons for this pattern of behavior, but it's not at all uncommon.
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| RPing isn't exactly the same thing as playing an RPG. Those people are RPers not gamers. As such they really can't be considered in gamer demographics unless they also play RPGs or some other type of video game. |
Okay, let me explain - I'm not suggesting all those women play video games, I'm pointing out an example of incorrect estimations of demographics in a given form of gaming. If one breed of gamer can be so very wrong in its estimations of numbers of men and women respectively, it's quite possible that another breed could be incorrect as well.
Speaking of which, according to the wikipedia entry for "gamer", using it to refer to fans of role-playing games (which it lists *seperately* from video games, thus illustrating a reference to the non-VG variety) is perfectly acceptable. The meaning of "gamer" is that said games tend to inspire large, connected fanbases than spend vast quantities of time AND money on the given subject compared to more casual games (card games, parlour games, board games). Therein lies the difference, and I believe role-players count every bit as much.
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| Besides if I'm not mistaken female RPers are quite common. |
In a lot of the RPG fora I venture onto women are still viewed as being obscenely rare - and I'm a fan of a White Wolf game, which generally have a pretty high percentage of female gamers and certainly of awareness of women within and without the games. Furthermore, female gamers are also deified, viewed as these superior saints of roleplaying, incapable of any sin, far better than their male counterparts. Which is great, of course, because again we don't have to look at women as humans, we get to reduce them to another (incorrect) stereotype. Yeeha. |
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Ranadiel
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| Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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Simply a strong, wonderful character, and I would love to see more like her.
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I personally didn't see her as being that strong. I think that she was a great character, but whenever I think about her I think about how she acted around her father. For some reason that jus makes me think of her as being weak in some sense. I have a feeling that that is supposed to be her human side, but it is just what sticks out in my mind the most when I think of her. I think I might have lost my train of thought at some point, so I'll stop this specific point here.
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| Not everyone is overt about it, especially in real life. |
That might be true, but at least at my school everyone is pretty much proud of their geekness and don't hide it in the slightest. In fact the geekiest people are praised at times. I could go through my entire graduating class this year and find close to a 2 dozen guys who play RPGs, tabletop RPGs, or RP online. Of the females there is only one who I know for sure does any of these things. There is one who I think might, but I'm not sure. I'm assuming that these are around the average break down of geeks. I suppose that that assumption could be completely wrong.
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Okay, let me explain - I'm not suggesting all those women play video games, I'm pointing out an example of incorrect estimations of demographics in a given form of gaming. If one breed of gamer can be so very wrong in its estimations of numbers of men and women respectively, it's quite possible that another breed could be incorrect as well.
Speaking of which, according to the wikipedia entry for "gamer", using it to refer to fans of role-playing games (which it lists *seperately* from video games, thus illustrating a reference to the non-VG variety) is perfectly acceptable. The meaning of "gamer" is that said games tend to inspire large, connected fanbases than spend vast quantities of time AND money on the given subject compared to more casual games (card games, parlour games, board games). Therein lies the difference, and I believe role-players count every bit as much.
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Alright I believe we are using two different definitions of RPer here. I am using it in the sense of someone who does free form RPing online. In that it isn't a game it is just developing a character and acting out the actions online. There is another form of this(which might have preceded online RPing) that is called LARPing, but I am not familiar enough with this to make any comments on this.
The way I think you are now using it is in people who play table top games such as D&D and White Wolf. These two things are similar and often times share a fan base, but I felt that we should make sure we have an understanding of what eachother is saying if we are to continue any further arguments on this subject.
I'll agree that those who play table top games are gamers and are part of the same demographics. However in my personal experience, I have found females who play RPGs of any kind to be rare. I have never had a female in any of my gaming groups, the only female that I have met who has played console RPGs is the one I previously mentioned, and I have only RPed with a female twice. However that isn't to say they don't exist, I just personally haven't had much contact with them.My understanding is that it is just that female gamers in general are rare. However among the ones that do exist the majority play RPGs of some kind. I think that the main reason for the small amount of female gamers is that the gaming industry alienates them because it doesn't realize how large the market for them is since they have nevered catered to them. If I'm wrong on any of these point then please feel free to correct me.
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Furthermore, female gamers are also deified, viewed as these superior saints of roleplaying, incapable of any sin, far better than their male counterparts.
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Well I do believe that they are better at getting in character and creating a convincing character. However this is because, from my understanding, that is the part that most females enjoy about RPing. While guys enjoy beating the snot out of things and don't care about their character's personality. Viewing them as being unable to do any wrong is just stupid, but as a general rule Ido believe they are better at the RPing aspect of RPGs. This is just about everything I have to say on this subject at the moment.
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Sualtam Lugh
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| Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Metal Gear Solid (One, not two or three) was an amazing game, because it had a stunning score, an insane, complex story, with good plot twists, AND the gameplay wasn't easy, on Hard and extreme. It was somewhat challenging. And it was a good game because it wasn't "Walk in, and shoot everyone." It was "Sneak in, and don't get caught." That's why extreme mode is the only way to play that game. But I guess innovation has no place in the Video Game world. Nope, just idiots playing the same games, with a different shell. That's all it will ever be. |
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