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Edge Riou
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 Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 7:31 am Post subject: |
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I think that teleportation is a command that many magicians can research and are able to do with ease, but Viki who sometimes messes up hasn't fully researched the art of teleportation because of unknown causes and the fact that she is still pretty young. With people such a Mazus who are very intellegent with magic can research teleportation with much more ease.
I believe that True Rune bearers are just used to using magic and can use teleportation much easier because of their natural magic senses. Since true rune bearers are ussually much stronger in magic than normal people I believe the can be able to control all of this energy and direct it toward teleportation.
As for the ninjas they probably just use a combination of both extreme speed and the art of camoflauge. So they probably use those techniques to deceive the eye and can appear to be able to teleport or move extremely fast. Well that is at least my thoughts on this whole teleportation thing.
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Kobold
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| Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 7:57 am Post subject: |
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Actually, Viki on the other hand should be an expert in teleportation. She is supposed to be specialised in teleportation, and unlike others, she can actually teleport through time, as well as teleport other people and objects... So don't say that she's less skilled in teleportation. That cannot be.
The reason why she messes up her teleportation at times is the same reason why she messes up ALL her magic at times. Viki's magic all have a chance of backfiring, so i suppose her teleportation magic is no difference. Thus, she sometimes screws up.
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Aurelien
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| Posted: Sun Jun 06, 2004 12:40 am Post subject: |
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The difference is that Viki "accidentally" teleported through time. Though yes it means that she could teleport through time, it doesn't prove that she could do it as she wishes. So in a sense, she's an expert in teleportation but she's also less skilled for the very same reason.
And I disagree with the reason on why she messes up teleportation. Teleportation is used in both in-game and storyline purpose. Whereas the backfire of magic spells seem to be in-game only.
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Kobold
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| Posted: Sun Jun 06, 2004 6:22 am Post subject: |
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The thing is, you can only see magic spells backfire in game because this IS a game... The only chances you can hope to see magic backfire is by using it in battle it self. There is a limit how much a game can potray.
Instead, take this in a conceptual story manner. The reason why Viki's teleportation fails could very well be the same reason why her spells fail. Viki messes up her magic all the same. Teleportation is a branch of magic. Think it on a wider prospect and don't just look at it in the game play's point of view.
Unless they plan on making an entire scene showing Viki cast magic and it failing, which they wouldn't unless Viki becomes an important character which affects the story line directly, the only chance you will get to see that is during fighting gameplay.
If they don't ever show Viki casting magic outside in game battling scenes, you probably won't see her spell back fire in storyline purposes.
Thus, your statement about
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| And I disagree with the reason on why she messes up teleportation. Teleportation is used in both in-game and storyline purpose. Whereas the backfire of magic spells seem to be in-game only. |
Shouldn't really justify why it should be disagreed that both forms of magic mess up is different.
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Aurelien
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| Posted: Sun Jun 06, 2004 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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| The thing is, you can only see magic spells backfire in game because this IS a game... The only chances you can hope to see magic backfire is by using it in battle it self. There is a limit how much a game can potray. |
Yet, there is enough to portray on how the teleportation screws up in storyline and not only in-game.
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| The reason why Viki's teleportation fails could very well be the same reason why her spells fail. |
And it could very well be a different reason.
Okay I'll try another approach. I'll go back to your earlier post.
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| The reason why she messes up her teleportation at times is the same reason why she messes up ALL her magic at times. Viki's magic all have a chance of backfiring, so i suppose her teleportation magic is no difference. Thus, she sometimes screws up. |
Every character that could cast magic has the chance of backfiring and not only Viki, but only Viki has screwed up teleportation magic. This might be not enough proof, but Luc managed to teleport Tir's party in Magician's Island just fine, and Star Dragon Sword manage to teleport Tir's party into the past just fine too. So far, only Viki has managed to screw up teleportation magic. And it all happened when she sort of sneezed or something like that. So that might be the reason and not because of there is a chance of spells to backfire.
Also, if you want to be technical and picky, backfiring and screwing up spells aren't really the same. Backfiring would mean that the spell worked but it hits you instead of the target (in a way like being reflected) while screwing up would mean that the spell worked but it doesn't work like how you wanted it to be (and not necessarily reflected to you instead). Hence, the reason of Viki screwing up teleportation should not be the same as the reason why Viki (and other characters) backfired the spells because those two are two different things.
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Kobold
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| Posted: Sun Jun 06, 2004 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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Actually, only a selected few people are capable of backfiring spells.
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| Every character that could cast magic has the chance of backfiring and not only Viki, but only Viki has screwed up teleportation magic. |
Viki has a chance of backfiring for ALL magic runes, Nanami has a chance for a few runes which i can't remember, and the squirrels all can back fire the particular element they can wield. FOr most other characters, they don't backfire spells...
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| Luc managed to teleport Tir's party in Magician's Island just fine, and Star Dragon Sword manage to teleport Tir's party into the past just fine too |
Luc only teleported them for a very short distance, from inside Leknaat's place to where Futch waited for them. Also, if i remember, he caused some characters to fall down, and they appeared at different times... So thats messed up in a way as well... SD sword, well, he's a True Rune, so having such powers might not be too far fetched...
And i shall reemphasise my point that you don't get a chance to see VIki perform any kind of magic in the storyline, thus, it is inaccurate to just claim that she wouldn't mess up her other kind of magics.
And you know, this debate is kind of pointless because i'm merely suggesting that Viki might mess up her teleportation for the same reason why she messes up her other magic. She's just someone who messes things up, and all her magic is messed up. So when she teleports, she'll mess up as well. Yeah...
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Ted
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| Posted: Sun Jun 06, 2004 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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I think that teleporting thing appears mostly, when it's important to the plot. Well, actually it's a good way to get especially bad guys away from field, or else they would get their ass hurt seriously or even die. =)
It just "happens by chance" that certain characters can control The Mystical Art of Teleportation.
So teleporting is a cheap trick for directors/writers to use that storytelling does'nt get too cocky. At least i think it that way... |
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Aurelien
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| Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 9:35 am Post subject: |
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| Actually, only a selected few people are capable of backfiring spells. Viki has a chance of backfiring for ALL magic runes, Nanami has a chance for a few runes which i can't remember, and the squirrels all can back fire the particular element they can wield. FOr most other characters, they don't backfire spells... |
Nope, everyone has the chance to backfire, it's just that they very rarely do it. If I remember correctly, there were some people in the past that had claimed that Luc even backfired an offensive Wind Rune spell. And I honestly doubt that Viki (or anyone else) could backfire a healing or defensive spell. The only person I have seen claiming that it had happened to him wasn't even sure wether his memory was right or not. So I doubt that it could happen because I use Viki in my party only for healing with the Water/Flowing Rune and she had never ever backfired even once.
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| Luc only teleported them for a very short distance, from inside Leknaat's place to where Futch waited for them. Also, if i remember, he caused some characters to fall down, and they appeared at different times... So thats messed up in a way as well... |
The distance shouldn't be an issue because it's still teleportation none the less. And the one person who fell down was Ted and if you remembered the game, it was obviously done on purpose by Luc. Hence, it wasn't a screw up at all.
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| And i shall reemphasise my point that you don't get a chance to see VIki perform any kind of magic in the storyline, thus, it is inaccurate to just claim that she wouldn't mess up her other kind of magics. |
And it's even more inaccurate for you to claim that she would. Because for all we know right now, she didn't. While what I was saying wasn't a fact, it was still more plausible because of the current fact that she hadn't messed up (not backfired)magic spells. Whereas your point was based only on the "it's possible that so and so" without having any facts to back it up.
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| And you know, this debate is kind of pointless because i'm merely suggesting that Viki might mess up her teleportation for the same reason why she messes up her other magic. She's just someone who messes things up, and all her magic is messed up. So when she teleports, she'll mess up as well. Yeah... |
Actually from that quote, you said that the reason why she screwed up the teleportation was because of two reasons. One being "the same reason why she messes up her other magic" (which implied that the reason is the magic, and magic could be backfired), and the other being "she's just someone who messes things up" (which implied that the reason is Viki herself).
What I disagreed was the first point of your post there (which was the only point you made in the previous post of my reply) and not the second one because I agreed with the second point of yours (hence, the example of Luc and SDS not screwing up teleportation) with Viki herself as the factor.
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Kobold
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| Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 10:13 am Post subject: |
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| Nope, everyone has the chance to backfire, it's just that they very rarely do it. If I remember correctly, there were some people in the past that had claimed that Luc even backfired an offensive Wind Rune spell. |
Nope... Not everyone will backfire spells. The person who claimed that Luc did is either lying, or mistakened.
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| And it's even more inaccurate for you to claim that she would. Because for all we know right now, she didn't. While what I was saying wasn't a fact, it was still more plausible because of the current fact that she hadn't messed up (not backfired)magic spells. Whereas your point was based only on the "it's possible that so and so" without having any facts to back it up. |
The only reason i even stated that point was because you claimed solely that Viki's backfiring spells and mis teleportation is of different reasons because teleportation mishaps can be seen outside battles, but spell mishaps cannot. Thus, i'm telling you that spells mishaps cannot be seen outside battle simply because it is never shown outside. I don't find it far fetched to think that perhaps if there is a manga, or an anime of somesort, where by we have a chance of seeing Viki perform magic in a story sequence, that they might show her backfiring her spells. The fact that Konami made her a character which has a chance of backfiring all her spells may just be in sync with her klutzy and messed up nature which is the same reason why she messes up her teleportation.
Besides, by default, Viki only owns a blinking rune, and not any other magical runes. So really, we will never have a chance to see her perform any form of magic in a story sequence aside from teleportaion magic, which means your claim that they are of different reasons because we don't get to see it happen outside battle cannot be a valid reason, thus leaving a possibility that the reasons might still be the same - that she is a person who messes up her magic regardless of what it is.
Thus, Viki isn't inferior in teleportation magics in anyway, but she is in fact superior because she specialises in teleportation magic. Instead, she is simply inferior as an effective magic user.
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Thief
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| Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 10:20 am Post subject: |
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Even II's Hero backfired his Bright Shield magic, I wouldn't be surprised if Luc did too. (I rarely used him, because he was practically useless when it comes melee combats).
Try equipping him with Alert rune or something that heightens the backfiring rate. |
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adrich
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| Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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Let's try not to get off topic. Remember that this is a discussion about teleportation and not necessarily about spells backfiring.
If you would like to continue your discussion of backfiring, however, you're free to make a thread about it. |
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Aurelien
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| Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 5:55 am Post subject: |
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Sorry about that, I'll go back to the original discussion about the teleportation.
First of all, the true rune bearers. I think it's fair enough to say that not every true rune bearers could teleport, which is proven by Tir's inability to teleport. New or not shouldn't be a problem because Ted who had the rune for 300+ years didn't teleport when he was in the middle of a battlefield (which led to him being found by the soldiers). Had he been able to teleport, it would be very plausible for him to do so at that time.
As for would true runes make the bearers easier to learn teleportation, I doubt so. The reason is that you only need to be chosen by the true rune and you don't mind being the bearer to actually bear the true rune. So it should have nothing to do with the magical skill of the bearers. Hence, if the bearer couldn't really do magic that well, they might not be able to teleport ever.
As mentioned by Kobold in the very first post of the thread, so far only characters with decent magic could teleport (excluding the ninjas, I'll get to that a little bit later). So it might be that they simply learn how to teleport and that teleportation is an advanced form of magic. Hence, not everyone could simply teleport but only those who excel at magic could do it.
Neclord is a bit tricky, but I think that he could teleport neither because of him being a vampire or him bearing the Moon Rune (because I already believed that true runes wouldn't give the ability to teleport). I honestly think that there are different types of vampires just like there are different types of humans. Only the vampires that learn magic properly would be strong enough and able to teleport IMO. It just happens that Neclord might be the one who is magically strong.
I do believe that ninjas teleport instead of moving so fast because of Sasuke and Mondo teleporting to N.Window castle. Moving so fast would only be useful for short distance, and with the fact that they would have to cross the river to reach N.Window castle, then it'd be sort of silly to say that they moved so fast until Banner Village and then borrowed a boat just like everyone else. But then again, I could be wrong.
One thing though, I think that the teleportation of the ninjas isn't achieved the same way as the teleportation of the magicians. I'm not sure how I could explain this, but to me, teleportation of the ninjas might require more skill than magic ability. Whereas in magicians case, they might need magical ability more. Probably the easiest explanation is to see how Sydonia has the art of far moving (though it could only be used on short distance and not far at all like its name). This proves that there is a different type of teleportation other than what we have seen. So with the difference in characteristic between ninjas and magicians, it's very possible IMO for them to have different type of teleportation as well.
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Sualtam Lugh
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| Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 7:08 am Post subject: |
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I think it's fair enough to say that not every true rune bearers could teleport, which is proven by Tir's inability to teleport
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Hah...Konami certainly didn't think that far ahead on Suikoden 1. Sure Luc and Leknaat could teleport. But they've had their runes how long? Give Tir a break and remember he only had his rune for...not long at all. |
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Aurelien
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| Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 7:24 am Post subject: |
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Well as I've mentioned in the very next sentence of what you quoted, Ted couldn't teleport either even after bearing the Souleater for 300s years.
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Kobold
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| Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2004 7:29 am Post subject: |
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Nice points raised. So in conclusion, i'd feel that teleportation can be acheived by people who research magic.(Mazus, Crowley, Windy, Luc, Leknaat, Sarah)
But, this brings about a question for Yuber and Neclord. Since Neclord as bugg has mentioned could have learnt teleportation through his years as a reigning vampire with the blue moon rune. Or, that vampires could teleport, or that Meclord simply did more magic. But Yuber. He isn't exactly a very magically inclined person... BUt well, he probably can teleport due to his mystical nature, and that he's not a human.
This brings me another question. Can Pesmerga teleport? Since technically, Pesmerga and Yuber are something similar, could it be possible that Pesmerga can teleport as well? I'd say it is possible even thought he is not seen teleporting in the games.
Then, i'd ask about Sierra. Though she doesn't perform any teleportation feat, can she? I mean, if Neclord is able to, surely she can. She IS inclined with magic, and she's the coven mistress and all, so i'd expect her to be able to teleport as well.
And finally, this might be a little off topic... Who, is that old man sitting in the corner of the Cave of the Winds with three treasure chests, one of which containing a blue gate rune, who has the ability to teleport you out of the cave of te winds? This old man is weird. He has the ability to teleport Riou and co outside, and this means his magic should be quite powerful. And also, he owns a blue gate rune, which is rather rare, of which he claims that he has no need for it any longer. Who the heck is this mysterious old man? And he sits at a corner of the cave of the winds for such a long time!
I'd say this strange old man is probably a descendant from the Gate Rune clan as well, who possess lots of magic, and is possibly Milie's grandpa...
Ok.. that last bit wasn't nessasary, but well... Yeah...
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