The origin of Shu

Scarlet Assassin · Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 6:48 pm Post subject: The origin of Shu

No I don't mean literally. What I mean is his name. While I have long held the belief that Shu's name was directly related to the Egyptian god of the same name (God of wind and wisdom if I'm not mistaken.) This seemed a valid theory thanks to his quick thinking (wind) and formidability in the field of strategy (wisdom).

This theory, however, has been overtaken by a more likely possiblity. In a book of Chinese military strategy I recently came across and interesting sentence. "The school of Legalism preached to chinese rules, the importance of Shu (The techniques of power.)

The brings up the very interesting question of which is a more likely theory. While the CHinese version of Shu is viable due to its relationship to asian culture, the egyptian version seems to fit him better. Now I've reached the point where I can't decide which is more likely. At first it seems as though the Asian factor would make CHinese Shu much more likely, but then we realize that Suikoden ahs incorporated many different cultures into names (Kurdish for Pesmerga, German for many things relation to Zexen, and French for a few characters)

Which do you think is more likely to be the origin of Shu's name? Does anyone else have a theory?
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Sophita · Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 8:46 pm Post subject:

Shu = reference to Zhuge Liang, I always thought. When you go to get him in Radat, the plot kind of references the 3 visits Liu Bei makes to Zhuge Liang in that it's insanely hard to see him, and when you do see him, it's not until he's moved by your dedication that he agrees to join you. Afterwards he enacts genius strategies and shows a critical eye on who to ally with and when. Even his looks/movements kind of remind me of Zhuge Liang. So, er, yes, I think he's just meant to be a winking reference to Zhuge Liang of Ro3K China.
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Starslasher · Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 9:20 pm Post subject:

Yeah, i would have to go with Sophitia. I thought that Shu was supposed to resemble a bt of Zhuge Liang. He look like him a little bit. But you must have done some impressive researching for the Shu - as - a - Egyptian - god - of - wisdom thing. For that, i applaud you Scarlet Assassin.
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Deleted User 1 · Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 5:20 pm Post subject:

I did notice that Shu was the same word as the dynasty warriors army... but I never really think of Zhuge Liang even though both Shu and Zhuge were strategists... I saw no other relations between the two, I was just thinking about the names and well... obviously thought something wrong and just gave up remembering the fact that they are both just a coincedence hahaha... and even up to now, after reading the posts before me (I like your interesting post by the way Sophita) I still think of it as a coincedence and nothing more...

JNX out

Zaleria · Posted: Thu May 26, 2005 11:47 am Post subject:

Well actually i think Zhuge Liang of the Shu army and Shu from suikoden II ae quite alike in terms of story. If you play dynasty warriors (i played DW4) on the battle of Wu Zhang Plains(spell?) Zhuge Liang did everything he could to outsmart cao cao even until his death. just like how shu outsmarted leon in suikoden II. the only little difference is Zhuge Liang died and Shu survived...
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Exile · Posted: Thu May 26, 2005 5:33 pm Post subject:

Sophita · Posted: Thu May 26, 2005 7:34 pm Post subject:

Zaleria · Posted: Fri May 27, 2005 7:41 am Post subject:

Sophita · Posted: Fri May 27, 2005 7:45 am Post subject:

...Yes.

DOH!
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Sai Fujiwara · Posted: Fri May 27, 2005 11:55 am Post subject:

...

People seem to think of Shu as being a reference to Zhuge Liang, but after playing through the Dynasty Warriors games, and reading on some of the background story / history on it, I would actually liken Shu in Suikoden II as being closer to Zhou Yu of Wu.

First of all, he looks a lot more like Zhou Yu in Dynasty warriors, than Zhuge Liang. Furthermore, Zhuge Liang had NO equal in the Three Kingdoms period... Or so it was written. Anyway, I would actually liken someone like Zhuge Liang to Mathiu Silverberg, which would make Apple kind of like Jiang Wei, whom Zhuge Liang taught. Personality-wise, it also seems to fit in with Mathiu, since he did everything he could for the Liberation Army, right until his death... Just like Zhuge Liang did for the Shu kingdom.

I pretty much akin Zhou Yu to Shu, since he looks like him, and it kinda' fits in with everything... (Well, my own thoughts, that is...) I would also akin Leon to Sima Yi (who probably WAS a better strategist than Zhou Yu.) Zhou Yu was pretty smart, but he wasn't a Zhuge Liang. Just as Shu wasn't THE smartest strategist, but he was one of the best. He admits that Leon is better, but Zhuge Liang never met anyone who was better... According to the Dynasty Warriors series, Sima Yi THOUGHT he was better, but he probably really wasn't... It's kinda' hard to say, though, since I'm sure some things are probably skewed and stretched a little in the Dynasty Warriors Series.

Anyway, that's my theory, though it probably WAS Konami's intention to make Shu a reference to Zhuge Liang.

Oh, and nice points about the three visits thing, Sophita. I didn't think of that, but it works... Even so, if they wanted to make Shu a Zhuge Liang reference, they missed the most important point... NO ONE WAS BETTER THAN ZHUGE LIANG! :P

I could make a little more discussion about the Three Kingdoms era since that interests me, but now probably isn't the thread for such a thing. :P
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Pahn · Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 6:50 pm Post subject:

I definately think it's the power. Specially since Suikoden is much more chinese than egyptian, and shu seems to represent Military might and power much more than he represents wisdom.

fuji · Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 11:47 pm Post subject:

Zhuge Liang had no equal because the guy who romanticized the 3kingdoms story was a descendant of the Shu empire. IMO the fall of Shu began with Guan Yu's death, not Liu Bei's. Liu Bei went nuts and it cost them the war, revenge took up his every thought. Upon his death, the empire was left to his son who dispite having good genes, wasn't a good leader. But Shu's position was already weakened due to Liu Bei want for revenge.

I agree with Sai, that Mathiu was based on Zhuge Liang. Remember the ploy to get arrows when Kongming was with Zhou Yu as a "guest" and Wei was invading (sent empty boats out with straw to catch arrows). That same ploy was used by Mathiu before a major battle. However, I disagree that Apple would be Jiang Wei. Jiang Wei was a good strategist, Apple, by her own admission wasn't.

Shu did seem like another character referenced to Kongming though. The 3 run-ins with him in Radat resembled Liu Bei's 3 visits.

....slightly off topic, Wasn't it Pang Tong who left Liu Bei an envelope (or instructions) to be opened at specific times, before he was forced to live in the Wei Kingdom (due to a ploy by Cao Cao)? Didn't that remind anyone of Ceaser in Suikoden 3 leaving envelopes for Thomas?
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Fudgepuppy · Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 1:43 am Post subject:

Shu i could be a chinesse
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Sophita · Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 4:34 am Post subject:

I agree weith you, Sai Fujiwara, that if any character were totally Zhuge Liang-ish, it would be Mathiu. That said, I do still think that Shu is a deliberate reference to Zhuge Liang and Shu, namely the 3 visits resembling your trip to Radat. I don't think Shu is meant to be a carbon copy of ZHuge Liang, but I do think he's just meant as a winking reference, as far as his name goes.

Now, the real mystery, of course, is who named their daughter Apple. :lol:
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Sai Fujiwara · Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 8:35 pm Post subject:

lol Point taken, Sophita. And I pretty much agree that Shu was supposed to be a nod to Zhuge Liang, it's just that well... They botched a few things in my opinion, that's all. :P

As far as the name "Apple" is concerned, I think that's a really cute name. You know, something along the lines of "Apple of my eye." It probably has something to do with that. Anyway, I like it, and my guess is whoever named her Apple was someone who could appreciate metaphorical speech. :mrgreen:
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