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Thor McOdin
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 Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:55 pm Post subject: Bill Maher Vs. Ann Coulter |
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A battle for free speech? Is someone right or is someone wrong? Did both commentators say stupid things?
I'm sure you all have heard about Ann Coulter's recent attack on John Edwards when she referred to him as a "faggot."
However, Bill Maher also made a rather controversial statement this weekend that was immediately attacked by Fox News. On his show, "Real Time with Bill Maher" on HBO, Maher said, "...I have zero doubt that if Dick Cheney was not in power, people wouldn’t be dying needlessly tomorrow," after the news of Cheney's assassination attempt in Afghanistan (Video).
For reasons that I still don't know, I somehow found myself watching Fox News earlier this afternoon and lo and behold, this was the subject of debate. While it was okay for Coulter to call a presidential candidate a "faggot," it was not okay for Bill to say the world would be a better place without Dick Cheney (although I'm pretty sure that he was quoting some comments from the Huffington Post which Ariana Huffington promptly took down). Since their comments, both Coulter and Maher have laid low. Most Democrats (and some Republicans) have cried foul, but Maher's comments are relatively unknown at the moment.
So, is this a battle for free speech? Are both commentators allowed to say whatever they want without fear of repercussion? Did both Maher and Coulter finally cross the line?
Although I don't know the answer, I will say that Fox calling Ann a "professional pundit whom Maher wishes he could be" was a bit...absurd. And, with Fox's new battle brewing with NBC, I'm sure that Joe Scarborough's appearance on "Real Time" will certainly drag this thing out for a very long time. Something tells me that we will be hearing about these remarks on "Hardball," "Countdown," and "Scarborough Country" in the coming days which will then prompt remarks during "The O'Reilly Factor," "Hannity and Colmes," etc. Since Time Warner owns HBO, it should be interesting to see what position they will take (as of now, CNN reported the Coulter story, but not Maher's).
Your thoughts?
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Last edited by Thor McOdin on Sun Mar 04, 2007 10:41 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Scarlet Assassin
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| Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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Ann Coulter was being a real person. I won't sit here and defend her but I'm not going to crucify her for saying something that most Americans have said in their lives at one point or another. Most of the right wing is denouncing their former support of her which, I think is a smart move at the moment. God knows you'll get murdered by the media if someone even thinks you're a bigot, let alone if you act like one.
Bill Maher's statement was moronic and ill informed at best, but hey, that's what Bill Maher does. People have been dying in the same fashion in the same areas of the world for hundreds of years, and people need to get a grip and realize that the United States did not cause the destabilization of the Middle East, in fact, there was no destabilization because the place hasn't been stable for hundreds (if not over a thousand) years.
People on the right being idiots but being honest, people on the left being idiots but being ignorant. It's all idiotic and anyone who supports either statement has less than half a brain.
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Tony Stark
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| Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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I do not want to turn this into a political argument, but I disagree with what you have said, Scarlet.
| SA wrote: |
| people need to get a grip and realize that the United States did not cause the destabilization of the Middle East, in fact, there was no destabilization because the place hasn't been stable for hundreds (if not over a thousand) years. |
The region was never completely stable, but it was more stable with Saddam in place. Taking him out of power completely destabilized the entire region. I personally think we're better off without Saddam in power, but him being taken out of power created a huge tremor in the Middle East.
As for the actual topic at hand, I mirror your sentiments about the issue (although I feel as though your analysis of the events was quite partisan), both sides are idiots and their extremism helps no one.
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Sage
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:23 am Post subject: |
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Free speech gives you the right to say whatever you want and these two were within their rights to say what they said. However, the first amendment isn't a shield to protect you from the consequences of and events following what you say, whether political, legal, physical, social, or anything else. That's why everyone should think before they speak.
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Luceit
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:42 am Post subject: |
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Free speech is one thing; being a total idiot is another.
I'd say both sides did something wrong; one side used the word 'faggot' without good reason, the othber said something that could be misinformed.
To comment about the Middle East, yeah, it has never been really stable, but taking Saddam out regretfully made it worse. Of course, even if they didn't take him out, it could have gotten worse on its own.
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Scarlet Assassin
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 2:12 am Post subject: |
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Now that I reread my post Tony, it does seem a bit partisan. I just think we put too much emphasis on words. Ann Coulter obviously isn't a bigot, but apparently she's not very smart either. I used to like her for her realism but I think she's crossed the line. However, as I said, I won't crucify her for using a word.
The first amendment gives people the right to say whatever they want, but as it has been proven on several occasions, doing something just because you can is NEVER a good idea.
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zeal
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 6:05 am Post subject: |
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I was shocked that Ann Coulter said such a thing. I know she's super conservative but to be that out right offensive was new for me. What she said is not really protected under the 1st Amendment because it is hate speech. What really blew my mind though was that everyone laughed.
While Bill Maher's implication that if Chiney died it would be a better place in protected by the 1st Amendment because it is not a death threat directly so legally it's all good.
To conclude Ann Coulter is pretty lame and Bill Maher is pretty cool for implying a death threat on the vice-president. All together though don't go saying offensive things on air...duh.
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Amyral
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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| zeal wrote: |
What she said is not really protected under the 1st Amendment because it is hate speech.
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Err, that's wrong, actually. Hate speech is protected if it doesn't incite violence and isn't libelous, the first amendment protects the speech. Now you could argue what she said was libelous, but more likely her speech would be taken as opinion, which is protected by the first amendment.
Myself, I think both people are idiots and nothing more but exaggerated screaming party heads, as most political talk people on television/radio are. Some of the most vocal ones have already admitted that it's just a shtick. |
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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I do love it when there is outrage over people’s comments and the first amendment is brought up to defend their position (Means they are idiots whose real reasoning for saying such things are as flawed as the words they used). It protects all speech used normally which means that people can be outraged at something someone said and think less of them for it that's protected as well because you can't place a law on feelings and they express that feeling through words which are protected. Outrage is good because without it free speech would become extreme and eventually stopped.
When you think about it Free speech isn't free at all. It's massively accepted speech and sometimes it won't be accepted by others, But because these others lack any real power to change the situation they just piss and moan about it.
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Scarlet Assassin
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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| zeal wrote: |
| To conclude Ann Coulter is pretty lame and Bill Maher is pretty cool for implying a death threat on the vice-president. |
I'm sorry, but no one else finds this to be a ridiculous comment? As I said before, free speech is one thing, but outlandish, ignorant statements that serve no purpose are another.
You're statement about the "hate" speech not being protected is entirely false. Just because someone doesn't like what someone else is saying doesn't mean that they don't have the right to say it, that's exactly why free speech exists. If you read up on the background of these two you'd see that Ann Coulter has no notable history of discrimination. It's only hateful speech if used in a hateful way, and last time I checked, Ann Coulter wasn't attacking any homosexual groups or individuals with the word.
But I digress, this isn't meant to be an argument. Both their stupid statements are protected by the first amendment whether people like it or not and there's nothing that can be done about moronic slurs or moronic ignorant assholes spouting unsupported garbage. |
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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Here are better questions, why did Ann Coulter use that word instead of another? Does she think being called that is worse than being called something like stupid? If so wouldn’t that mean she thinks less of gay people than straight people? Why does Bill Maher think that the Vice President wields more power than the president? Does he think the same about Bush? Everyone in congress who support the continuation of the war?
How about instead of fighting about weather or not they were right in saying it, ask questions about why they said it. You can’t change that they said it so getting angry over it is pointless. Not that that’ll stop people from getting angry over it because there’s always someone complaining about something or other.
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Sai Fujiwara
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| zeal wrote: |
| To conclude Ann Coulter is pretty lame and Bill Maher is pretty cool for implying a death threat on the vice-president. |
That might be the most asinine statement that I've read in a long time.
Let me get this straight, you think someone is lame for saying "faggot," right? I can accept that.
Why did she use that word...? She did, because another actor entered rehab for saying that word to another actor. (That did happen to be homosexual.) She doesn't agree with saying it, but her point of using the word, was that she thinks it's completely ridiculous that someone should go into rehab after saying the word.
Franky, I believe that Ann Coulter had a very valid point, but using the word was very inappropriate for her setting. I'm not here to argue that she did nothing wrong. That word, like saying the "n" word, will offend a lot of people, so it really shouldn't be used unless you're in a private setting with some friends.
So, I can agree with you on her, even if I kind of agree with her underlying point.
However... Bill Maher is cool for IMPLYING A DEATH THREAT on the Vice-President?!
What the fuck kind of statement is that?! Listen, I can understand that some people REALLY do not like Dick Cheney, and that some fools might say things similar to what Bill Maher said about our Vice-President. But to say that it's "cool" to imply a death threat on ANYONE clearly proves that you either did not think about what you typed, or that you're not mature enough to comment on the material at hand.
I was going to say that I mostly agree with what Scarlet has said, but that statement was too ridiculous to pass up. Death threats are NOT cool, regardless who they're aimed at, and regardless of whether they are real or implied.
As for Maher, well... I won't lie. The man can be amusing, even though I consider myself a conservative. He thinks Cheney is in power, because a lot of Democrats don't believe that Bush is competent enough to be President, and because Cheney gets HUGE Halliburton kickbacks, and lo and behold.... Halliburton owns most of the oil contracts in Iraq.
Both were wrong for their statements, but both were proving a point. Maher thinks that Cheney orchestrated the Iraq War, and Coulter thinks it's ridiculous to enter rehab for using a word. (Even an offensive one.)
However, I will say that in Coulter's defense, she later said that she wasn't saying Edwards was gay... Because she wouldn't want to insult the gay population by comparing them to John Edwards.
That, at least. Was pretty amusing. :D
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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Let me get this straight, you think someone is lame for saying "faggot," right? I can accept that.
Why did she use that word...? She did, because another actor entered rehab for saying that word to another actor. (That did happen to be homosexual.) She doesn't agree with saying it, but her point of using the word, was that she thinks it's completely ridiculous that someone should go into rehab after saying the word.
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I think it's ridiculous as well but I don't say those words just to prove a point that I can. In fact that's a horrible reason to do anything. I also love how you "accept" that people think it's lame to say a word yet can't accept someone saying the world would be better if someone died. Both are commonly used to describe people they hate.
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Franky, I believe that Ann Coulter had a very valid point, but using the word was very inappropriate for her setting. I'm not here to argue that she did nothing wrong. That word, like saying the "n" word, will offend a lot of people, so it really shouldn't be used unless you're in a private setting with some friends.
So, I can agree with you on her, even if I kind of agree with her underlying point.
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It's ok in private with friends... That's another way of saying it's wrong. It's only right if said in public or else you’re a coward. Something I agree Ann Coulter isn't (Just because saying in public is right doesn't mean it's not offensive and damaging if said somewhere where it's just not appropriate... Like anything or place dealing with politics)!
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However... Bill Maher is cool for IMPLYING A DEATH THREAT on the Vice-President?!
What the fuck kind of statement is that?! Listen, I can understand that some people REALLY do not like Dick Cheney, and that some fools might say things similar to what Bill Maher said about our Vice-President. But to say that it's "cool" to imply a death threat on ANYONE clearly proves that you either did not think about what you typed, or that you're not mature enough to comment on the material at hand.
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What's "cool" and "IMPLYING" anyway? Your mad because it sounded like he was threating a power figure that might often get clearly defined death threats?
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I was going to say that I mostly agree with what Scarlet has said, but that statement was too ridiculous to pass up. Death threats are NOT cool, regardless who they're aimed at, and regardless of whether they are real or implied.
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More use of cool and implied. Both words that are more your personal view than anything else. You can't prove he implied anything and people are just jumping to an extreme conclusion because they disagree with him.
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As for Maher, well... I won't lie. The man can be amusing, even though I consider myself a conservative. He thinks Cheney is in power, because a lot of Democrats don't believe that Bush is competent enough to be President, and because Cheney gets HUGE Halliburton kickbacks, and lo and behold.... Halliburton owns most of the oil contracts in Iraq.
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That's just corruption which is common with all regimes. It shouldn’t happen but it does… Maher and “a lot” of Democrats would be dead wrong if they thought that (Which some probably do).
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Both were wrong for their statements, but both were proving a point. Maher thinks that Cheney orchestrated the Iraq War, and Coulter thinks it's ridiculous to enter rehab for using a word. (Even an offensive one.)
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Both their reasoning is about as ill conceived as they are. People "enter" rehab for that reason not because they need to but because the people and media will buy the argument and it'll help their damaged image (Something Ann doesn't seem to worry about anyway). Also anyone who thinks the Iraq war was more than an over egger attempt to take Saddam out of power and congresses incompetence to be anything more than a yes man following 9/11 usually has no real evidence to back their claim.
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However, I will say that in Coulter's defense, she later said that she wasn't saying Edwards was gay... Because she wouldn't want to insult the gay population by comparing them to John Edwards.
That, at least. Was pretty amusing. :D |
*yawn* That's about the oldest way to take a statement back.
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Timbo
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| If you read up on the background of these two you'd see that Ann Coulter has no notable history of discrimination. |
I think all of her remarks about other religions can be regarded as discrimination. Saying this :
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| Being nice to people is, in fact, one of the incidental tenets of Christianity (as opposed to other religions whose tenets are more along the lines of "kill everyone who doesn't smell bad and doesn't answer to the name Mohammed") |
or this:
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| Airports scrupulously apply the same laughably ineffective airport harassment to Suzy Chapstick as to Muslim hijackers. It is preposterous to assume every passenger is a potential crazed homicidal maniac. We know who the homicidal maniacs are. They are the ones cheering and dancing right now. We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity. We weren't punctilious about locating and punishing only Hitler and his top officers. We carpet-bombed German cities; we killed civilians. That's war. And this is war |
or:
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Like many of you, I carefully reviewed the lawsuits against the airlines in order to determine which airlines had engaged in the most egregious discrimination, so I could fly only that airline. But oddly, rather than bragging about the charges, the airlines heatedly denied discriminating against Middle Eastern passengers. What a wasted marketing opportunity! Imagine the great slogans the airlines could use:
"Now Frisking All Arabs — Twice!"
"More Civil-Rights Lawsuits Brought by Arabs Than Any Other Airline!"
"The Friendly Skies — Unless You're an Arab"
"You Are Now Free to Move About the Cabin — Not So Fast, Mohammed!" |
I find it hard to say this isn't discriminatory against people of Middle Eastern descent.
And as for this:
| Quote: |
| Both were wrong for their statements, but both were proving a point. Maher thinks that Cheney orchestrated the Iraq War, and Coulter thinks it's ridiculous to enter rehab for using a word. (Even an offensive one.) |
Look up the info about this situation before saying he' just said a word' there was also grabbing of throats and large arguments around this. Grabbing a person's throat violently is normally a good reason to go to rehab, it wasn't simply 'using the word'.
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Scarlet Assassin
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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Timbo, I really didn't want to get into this argument on the board but I suppose I have to. http://www.danzfamily.com/pictures/pictures02/hijackers.jpg
Check out that link. Those are the airplane hijackers whose pictures we have available to us in the united States. Don't sissy out and step around the subject, all of them are Muslim. I'm not an uneducated asshole, I'm not a bigot. I have, on several occasions, taking quite a serious beating to my own friends for inappropriate racial comments against people of the nation of Islam. All of those hijackers were of the Islamic faith. Are you going to tell me first that the largest demographic of people who follow the teachings of Islam isn't people of Middle Eastern Descent, and second that the highest demographic of people hijacking planes in the United States isn't Muslim extremists? Give both of those demographics do you really think it's appropriate for security guards to be strip searching 92 year old women at random while allowing several people of Middle Eastern descent to walk onto the plane unchecked? I'm not a racist, I'm all for fairness, and I think it's only fair that people who share the same traits as people under suspicion to grasp this concept. I've said it before and I'd say it again, it's only racism if there's no sense behind it. If nineteen year old Irish guys with long blonde hair were hijacking planes I'd strip in front of every security guard in the airport and ride the plane naked to prove I had no malicious intent. Everyone needs to get thicker skin and grow up, it's a world of realities and one of those realities is that if you look like a member of a group that's known for violence, people are going to think you are violent.
That's not to say that all Muslims are violent. Quite a few of my friends are followers of the Muslim faith and I've spoken with members of the mosque down the road from my house just like I've spoken to members of the synagogue, church, and Buddhist temple.
Granted, Ann Coulter has said some dumb shit, but the fact remains that she's being honest. We haven't seen an honest member of either political faction in a very long time, and it's stupid shit like these cries of racism and discrimination that keep the honest ones down. She's a bit ignorant and someone should educate her as to the finer points of the Islamic faith, but I will never crucify someone for speaking their mind.
Also, Sai, ease up on Zeal, this thread is not for arguing and if the posts get any more personal than they need to I won't hesitate to shut it down. While I may not agree with the content of Zeal's post, he has a right to post it.
Userito, I think you missed the point of Sai's post. He was saying that he thought it was wrong of Zeal to say that someone is cool for implying a death threat, which by the way, didn't even exist. I don't remember Bill Maher threatening to kill anyone (except decent comedy.)
Everyone needs to cool off.
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