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Sparhawk
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 Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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There are more ways of torture than the purely physical. Mental torture can be just as effectve, without the mess. I do believe that it can get results when applied in the right way.
Some of you think that this is moraly wrong, I don't. I might be a cold sob, but I think that it does have a place.
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Sniper_Zegai
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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A person can be trained to resist mental torture. However actually seeing your fingers broken can be a whole new ball game. It depends really you cant really test that sort of thing out can you really but what can you do.
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Tonberry
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| Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 1:19 am Post subject: |
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| Hayashi Ujitsuna wrote: |
| Decado wrote: |
| 'For the greater good' always sends a shiver down my spine when used in a moral context as it is generally used by people who will never have to experience what happens to those people who are considered as sacrifices to the greater good. Such a phrase can be used to justify the most inhumane and brutal practices that society has. |
Phrases like that usually make the perpatraitors complete hypocrites and just as bad as their enemy. |
As much as Hot Fuzz has corrupted this phrase in my mind, I still like it, myself, though I just don't think people use it the right way. At least my perception of the phrase is innocent, so I really do like to use it.
Torture is not acceptable. It's hypocritical for a government bent on destroying terrorism to partake in such terrible acts. In fact, it scares me more than terrorists do (which is quite easy, because terrorism does not frighten me one bit). In fact, using torture is more likely to create fanatics than anything else. The war on terror is silly enough as it is, but using practices that may increase the incentive to become a terrorist is not smart. Terrorism will never be stopped, but the best way to fight it is to stop people from becoming terrorists, and torturing terrorists won't make their buddies any happier.
Okay, so I strayed a bit from the topic, but still. Torture is something I'll never support, since it's one of the worst things I can imagine ever experiencing. I don't care if it's "just an enemy". A person is a person and their nationality has nothing to do with it. Those who would torture another are just as bad, if not worse, as the person they are torturing. I guess I'm just a bit biased after stumbling upon images of torture victims that will be forever etched into my brain. |
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Hawk Thanatos
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| Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 2:37 am Post subject: |
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| Torture for torture sake is a horrible thing, but to torture someone (who intends harm) in order to prevent the death of innocent people, there's some good in such an act. |
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Rune hunter
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| Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 3:05 am Post subject: |
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There is some good to it. But how sure are you that you will actual benefit from it? You might end up getting false infromation and lose any moral high ground you have against your enemies.
We are tyring to protected our way of life and our civilization right? Why don't we act CIVILIZED and prove to our enemies our way of life is alot better. |
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Hawk Thanatos
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| Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 3:23 am Post subject: |
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| Rune hunter wrote: |
| There is some good to it. But how sure are you that you will actual benefit from it? You might end up getting false infromation and lose any moral high ground you have against your enemies. |
So your argument is that people shouldn't try and protect their loved ones and other innocent people because they might not succeed? That doesn't seem like a very good strategy to me. And why would doing your best to preserve life cause you to lose your "moral high ground", in my opinion standing by and doing nothing while people kill others who did them no harm makes you a much worse person.
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| We are tyring to protected our way of life and our civilization right? Why don't we act CIVILIZED and prove to our enemies our way of life is alot better. |
Because there's no point closing your eyes and ignoring the realities of life. Terrorists are killing people all over the world who did nothing but live their lives in peace and no matter how much you might wish it, everyone holding hands and singing kumbaya isn't going to convince the terrorists that they shouldn't kill us. |
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Metallingus
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| Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 3:28 am Post subject: |
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It's not acceptable, under any grounds. The Geneva Convention on Human Rights has provisions condemning the use of torture for means of intelligence. Under international law, the Geneva Convention is upheld as customary law, meaning that it is held in the highest regard in all aspects (encompassing morals, politics, and philosophy) and is the basis of many of the laws enforced today. By this definition, it doesn't really matter if a person thinks that it is acceptable or not; it just isn't. Unfortunately, that such a law is in existence, and that such a law is observed and enforced, are two different things. As such, the laws are broken and torture is still prevalent today.
Personally, while I agree with the tenets prescribed in the Geneva Convention, my stance on torture is rather Machiavellian. If torture would be the only means to extract information that can save thousands, or hundreds of thousands of lives, then there probably isn't any other choice. (Truth drugs are a myth, and are horribly unreliable. Even if they were actually effective, they'd still be classified as a method of torture) However, I think it should be used as a last resort, and should not be done for the sake of hurting and humiliating people.
Last edited by Metallingus on Mon Oct 08, 2007 9:22 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Rune hunter
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| Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 4:39 am Post subject: |
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So your argument is that people shouldn't try and protect their loved ones and other innocent people because they might not succeed? That doesn't seem like a very good strategy to me. And why would doing your best to preserve life cause you to lose your "moral high ground", in my opinion standing by and doing nothing while people kill others who did them no harm makes you a much worse person.
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My argument is that people shouldn't use an obviously flawed system to get potentialy flawed data that will be useless. There is a reason confessions and evidence obtain though torture are illegal in a court of law. That reasoning is the same for why it should be illegal to gather intel though the use of torture.
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| Terrorists are killing people all over the world who did nothing but live their lives in peace and no matter how much you might wish it, everyone holding hands and singing kumbaya isn't going to convince the terrorists that they shouldn't kill us. |
No it wont. But it will convince moderate muslims[muslims that terrorists are trying to influence to there side] that the west is not the enemy and that may convince them to help us fight these extremists. I believe in the long run this stategy will be more beneficial for the fight against terrorists. |
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Hawk Thanatos
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| Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 5:08 am Post subject: |
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| Rune hunter wrote: |
| My argument is that people shouldn't use an obviously flawed system to get potentialy flawed data that will be useless. There is a reason confessions and evidence obtain though torture are illegal in a court of law. That reasoning is the same for why it should be illegal to gather intel though the use of torture. |
The reasoning behind not allowing confessions obtained through torture is that you could make someone say whatever you wanted them to by torturing them enough. The difference between that and gathering intel through torture is that you're trying to get facts from them to prevent murder, not getting them to say whatever bullshit story you want them to.
| Rune hunter wrote: |
| No it wont. But it will convince moderate muslims[muslims that terrorists are trying to influence to there side] that the west is not the enemy and that may convince them to help us fight these extremists. I believe in the long run this stategy will be more beneficial for the fight against terrorists. |
Moderate Muslims know the west isn't the enemy, that's why they're moderate Muslims, because they're not completely irrational. Obviously if you torture innocent people that would change, hence why I said in the other topic that terrorists need to be found guilty in a fair trial before you try and get information from them, either through torture or nicer methods. But if a terrorist's torture or death could prevent the death of innocent people then there's no doubt in my mind that that's what should be done. |
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Metallingus
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| Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 5:14 am Post subject: |
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| Rune hunter wrote: |
| My argument is that people shouldn't use an obviously flawed system to get potentialy flawed data that will be useless. There is a reason confessions and evidence obtain though torture are illegal in a court of law. That reasoning is the same for why it should be illegal to gather intel though the use of torture. |
Just a thought: More often than not, torture is used to extract data from an unwilling (obviously) intel source to confirm and compare with data already on-hand and procured through different means.
Example: I already have data that reveals that Nation A will be bombing Point X at xx:xx hours. However, I am unsure of the authenticity of this data (it may be counter-intelligence data released by Nation A) so I capture personnel from Nation A and torture him in order to obtain data that is parallel to the data I already have.
Truth be told, torture, while brutal and uncivilized, is a refined art. More often than not, the people who carry out such tasks are trained for the said tasks. They can tell when they are being lied to, and have polygraph machines on-location (which they are trained to operate, of course) to verify any of their suspicions. In the end, however, what is most important is that they already have data that just needs confirmation, by which they can measure the truthfulness of any claim made by the tortured party.
Blind torture is a thing of the past. The scary thing is, unacceptable as it is, it has been refined to a point that it is actually a feasible means of extracting data. Of course we all know that feasible =/= favorable or morally straight all the time. |
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Hawk Thanatos
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| Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 5:20 am Post subject: |
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| Metallingus wrote: |
| Of course we all know that feasible =/= favorable or morally straight all the time. |
Oh it's definitely not a favourable option but without a better choice there's no way I'd value the life of a convicted terrorist over the lives of potentially hundreds of innocent people. Terrorists and murders etc give up their right to life when they try and harm innocent people. |
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Rune hunter
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| Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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| The difference between that and gathering intel through torture is that you're trying to get facts from them to prevent murder, not getting them to say whatever bullshit story you want them to. |
And the one being tortured can say whatever bullshit story he can come up with just to stop being tortured.
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But if a terrorist's torture or death could prevent the death of innocent people then there's no doubt in my mind that that's what should be done.
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And in the process we end up becoming the very monsters we want to stop.
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| Moderate Muslims know the west isn't the enemy, that's why they're moderate Muslims, because they're not completely irrational. Obviously if you torture innocent people that would change, hence why I said in the other topic that terrorists need to be found guilty in a fair trial before you try and get information from them, either through torture or nicer methods. |
I highly doubt moderate muslims will distinguish between an innocent man and a terrorist. They will likely see the west torturing a muslim and it will likely only inflame them at the hypocrisy of the west.
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| Truth be told, torture, while brutal and uncivilized, is a refined art. More often than not, the people who carry out such tasks are trained for the said tasks. They can tell when they are being lied to, and have polygraph machines on-location (which they are trained to operate, of course) to verify any of their suspicions. In the end, however, what is most important is that they already have data that just needs confirmation, by which they can measure the truthfulness of any claim made by the tortured party. |
Funny you should mention the polygraph test. You should know that its not very accurate. Just like torture. Btw, if your trying to confirm unsure data by gathering even more unautheticated data maybe you need to look for a better intel gathering. |
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Tullaryx
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| Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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I understand your stance on torture and I don't think people are ever going to convince you to take an even obejective view of it so I won't bother, but all your talk of beter intel gathering smacks of talking with little or no suggestion. Whose to say that we even know if intel gathered from torture by intelligence agencies haven't stopped terrorist acts from occuring.
From studying the history of intelligence agencies and the people who have run them (CIA, MI6, Mossad, DGESE and even the FBI) its that their successes are rarely advertised and/or made as front page headlines. It is only their failures which always see the light of day. So, who is to say that past use of torture (physical, psychological, etc.) in the past haven't led to successful interdiction of terrorist acts about to be committed.
Do you actually have proof that these agencies and their people have gotten false information fromextreme interrogation which led to nothing? I know I don't and I make it a point to always try to stay current on how the world affairs are reported beyond the general news outlets. If there's a flaw in their system then do you have something else which would work in the short-term when lives are on the line. I know you say working to have better intel sharing with all nations would be a solution but that doesn't mean much when there's chatter being intercepted talking of a terrorist plan to happen in the now and not the later.
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Hawk Thanatos
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| Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Rune hunter wrote: |
| And the one being tortured can say whatever bullshit story he can come up with just to stop being tortured. |
People can always lie, but like Mettalingus said, torture is a refined art and like cops or judges etc people can be trained to recognize a lie. Not to mention that once they have the intel the various security agencies can attempt to corroborate it.
| Rune hunter wrote: |
| And in the process we end up becoming the very monsters we want to stop. |
By your moral code yes. By my moral code we would have done nothing wrong, in fact we would have done some good in saving the lives of innocents.
| Rune hunter wrote: |
| I highly doubt moderate muslims will distinguish between an innocent man and a terrorist. They will likely see the west torturing a muslim and it will likely only inflame them at the hypocrisy of the west. |
You're saying Muslims are unable to differentiate between an terrorist extremist and a regular Muslim? That doesn't seem very fair to me. |
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kuwaizair
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| Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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intersting, torture never yeilds a good answer? what about the oppiste? capture your enemy spy. put him in a vibrating chair and feed them caviar and cake and give them fine wine and footrubs?
you'd think fear and pain would do a lot better.
well would be always drugs or hypnosis, I hear the latter is invalid and the former is as illegal as smashing their fingers for answers.
I say just tourture them with sound and smells. thats just as bad as hanging them upside down and pooping on their holy things.
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