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Decado
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 Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 5:09 am Post subject: |
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And in doing so we become the beast which we label as 'evil' and lose any moral high ground which we may have had in both past and future conflicts.
'For the greater good' always sends a shiver down my spine when used in a moral context as it is generally used by people who will never have to experience what happens to those people who are considered as sacrifices to the greater good. Such a phrase can be used to justify the most inhumane and brutal practices that society has.
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Fu Su Lu
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| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:08 am Post subject: |
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Torture is not acceptable. NEVER. Even war should be under some rules and, even in these times where everything seems to be allowed ro get what you want.
If moral reasons are not enough, law should do it, Ginebra Agreements, Universal human rights, ONU, (sorry I dont know the technical names fot them in English and it has been some yars since I studied then, but the point is torture is absolutely forbidden...despite it is an unrespected law)
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Ujitsuna
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| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 9:03 am Post subject: |
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| Decado wrote: |
| 'For the greater good' always sends a shiver down my spine when used in a moral context as it is generally used by people who will never have to experience what happens to those people who are considered as sacrifices to the greater good. Such a phrase can be used to justify the most inhumane and brutal practices that society has. |
Phrases like that usually make the perpatraitors complete hypocrites and just as bad as their enemy. |
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St. Ajora
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| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:59 am Post subject: |
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| Rune of Corruption wrote: |
War and morality don't go together at all. It is just as torturous to shoot some one on the battle field and watch as they die a slow painful death as it is to beat someone while they are hanging upside down for information in the same war. Even if the soldier doesn't kill anyone the soldier still has to live with the memory of watching humans getting blown apart and shot to pieces. The whole process is torture. It is hypocritical to try and clean war in the first place.
Torture is unreliable in the sense that it is not a good way to gain reliable information. To the end the pain many people may say anything and those who are so devoted to the "cause" would break no matter what. In my opinion it is a waste of time. |
Way to go, son!
Torture is practiced by a barbaric sort of people whose people is to extend their meaningless physical lives as long as possible :P If people were true to their inherent, innate (peaceful) selves, there wouldn't be any need for torture because no one would protest death. Of course, if more people were like that, then war would seriously be minimized, but sadly, too many people covet a brutal life than a peaceful existence. |
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Cloudless Eye
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| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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I'd say torture is acceptable in certain situations. If it's to save millions of lives at the expense of one, who a lot of people happen to be angry at, then sure, why not? I mean, I'm pretty sure if people were to catch someone like.. say, Korea's dictator(Whatever is name may be.) after firing of nuclear missiles of some sort, they'd be torturing him to find out where the weapons are hid if he won't talk. I'm pretty sure citizens of any country are really gonna be goin' ape shit over something like that.
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Camus the Noble
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| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Rune hunter wrote: |
| Actual if you follow a utilitarian stance on morality(meaning as long as the benifit/pleasure/gains are greater than the losses/pain) then what you do is moral. |
Well, as someone who tends to take a utilitarian approach to moral questions, I have to say I think this is a very simplified portrayal. A utilitarian could very well think that torture should never be allowed, on the grounds (for instance) that the chance of getting reliable information out of torture is so small that the information gained and the use it could be put to would not outweigh the torture itself. Or a utilitarian could think that the use of torture would be likely to spread out of control and that it would be better to outlaw all torture with a blanket rule, or that there are less cruel ways to extract information of equal or better quality. I'm not saying that any of these views are correct, merely that they are potential reasons why a utilitarian would oppose torture.
| Decado wrote: |
| 'For the greater good' always sends a shiver down my spine when used in a moral context as it is generally used by people who will never have to experience what happens to those people who are considered as sacrifices to the greater good. Such a phrase can be used to justify the most inhumane and brutal practices that society has. |
That is precisely why it is important, when discussing the morality of a potentially ethically ambiguous practice X, to ascertain whether the greater good will actually result from practice X, whether there are no unforeseen consequences of practice X not being taken into account, and whether there are no better methods of achieving the desired result (the greater good) than practice X.
By the way, Decado, I'm curious what you mean by the phrase "used in a moral context." In what other context could a person use the phrase "for the greater good"?
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| And in doing so we become the beast which we label as 'evil' and lose any moral high ground which we may have had in both past and future conflicts. |
Even if we (I assume that by "we" you mean the United States) approved torture as an intelligence-gathering tool tomorrow, there would still remain large moral differences between us and Islamic extremists, examples being gender equality, basically secular government, and freedom of speech. (Admittedly, all of these are under attack in the U.S. by certain theocratic elements on the far right, but at least here these distinguishing characteristics are seen as the basic norms for our civilization. And if the genders aren't really equal, or if religion has too much influence on our government, or if speech isn't as free as it should be, well, then, at least we try. That's more that could be said about any government in which Osama bin Laden was the head of state.)
As for my own views on the issue of torture: I've struggled with this issue, and frankly I'm not sure where I stand. First of all, I don't believe in an inalienable right to not be tortured. I think that there are at least hypothetical cases in which torture would be justified. The most famous is the thought experiment of the "ticking time-bomb": Imagine that there is a bomb planted somewhere in a large city, say, New York. And you have in your custody a known terrorist who you know can tell you the location of the bomb, and that if he tells you where it is you can prevent its detonation, saving a large number of lives. Were I in this situation, I would not hesitate to torture.
But that is an extreme case. In the real world, there are a number of complicating factors. For one, how reliable is information gathered by torture likely to be? A lot of people here have said it is likely to be unreliable. This may be right. However, it seems to me that this judgment is based mainly on intuition and not any really thorough psychological study. And really, it's a murky situation to try and figure out what level of reliability is the cutoff mark for torture to be acceptable. I think it may be a lot lower than many people would be willing to admit. If torture could yield information saving hundreds of lives, then even if only one instance of torture in twenty yielded such a piece of information, it would still be worth it. But in the preceding sentence both the amount of lives saved ("hundreds") and the reliability of torture ("one in twenty") are more or less arbitrary numbers I just plucked out of thin air. For me, the issue rests on just what those numbers are in the real world. (Not to mention other potential negative consequences of torturing, which may well exist.)
And are there any better methods rather than physical torture? What about truth serums? Would it be feasible to use those on a wide scale, and how reliable are they (as compared to torture)? If the military (and as an American citizen I'm referring to the U.S. military here), doesn't have reliable truth serums, I think they should be trying to concoct some. But even if that project is undertaken right away, that still leaves open the question of what to do in the meantime.
My very tentative stance on torture is that it should be allowed in cases where there is good reason to think that a suspect has information that could save lives. I stress the word tentative; I simply don't know enough to say what sort of consequences such a policy would have. I firmly believe, however, that torture should be allowed if doing so would do more good than harm.
| St. Ajora wrote: |
| If people were true to their inherent, innate (peaceful) selves, there wouldn't be any need for torture because no one would protest death. Of course, if more people were like that, then war would seriously be minimized, but sadly, too many people covet a brutal life than a peaceful existence. |
St. Ajora, what makes you so sure that people are inherently and innately peaceful? I think the history of our species provides strong evidence to the contrary. I'm certainly not saying that we're totally barbaric (as a whole) either, but to say that war is some huge deviation from human nature would seem to divest the phrase "human nature" of any connection to the observed nature of actual humans.
Last edited by Camus the Noble on Mon Feb 26, 2007 5:31 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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FabledHero
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:54 am Post subject: |
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Torture is completely wrong and should be done away with. I think even if you gain information by torture you still lose. People around the world see you torturing people you'll only make enemies and more hatred will brew. If you were in the opposing country at war with the USA and you started believing the US is rigth in invading and support this, then moments later you see your own people being tortured you migth think twice about which side and right. Consequently, torture only breeds more hate, and the wars are prolonged. The only way you can beat extremists in Iraq isn't to use methods of hate, but methods of honor, love, kindness. You've got to be respected not feared. If you're feared you're only going to make more enemies, because the people in Iraq don't cower to fear due to their beliefs.
I think the only way peace will ensue and wars will stop is if everyone starts treating each other with respect and with a sense of honor and ethics. I mean if you heard some country was torturing American soldiers how would you feel? YOu would probabaly be outraged and that would only provoke more anger, hate and a negative vibe in the world. |
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Sniper_Zegai
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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An unusual topic to say the least but more relevant than ever in todays political climate.
The main problem that makes torture un-accepltable is determining whethere a person has the information you are looking for. Obviously you cant determine it by simply asking a person and lie detectors wont get you anywhere. Torture has been given a new revamp though.
Drugs and machinery if used correctly can be used to torture someone with realtive "safety".
I dont approve of torture however not using torture means that the military and national anti-terrorism units are being forced to make deals with horribly violent and even insane criminals sometimes even giving them immunity. But then again you never knows what goes on behind closed doors. Take Russia for example even journalists are being mysteriously killed for critizing the government but nobody can prove it and those are people in the public eye. I think torture still goes on behind closed doors but you never can know for sure.
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LordKratos
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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I think torture should be the last way we should try to get information for the most part torture is stupid,
If someone is threatening to rip out your spleen I think you'll say anything to get out of the situation...meaning torture will most likely get you false information. |
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Sniper_Zegai
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 4:56 am Post subject: |
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| LordKratos wrote: |
I think torture should be the last way we should try to get information for the most part torture is stupid,
If someone is threatening to rip out your spleen I think you'll say anything to get out of the situation...meaning torture will most likely get you false information. |
lol I agree. I would try and make a deal though if I was a criminal but if I was innocent I'm not sure what I would do. I mean this is probably were torture gets its main critisism. If someone is actually innocent and does'nt "know anything" then how can you really prove it. Unless there is a truth serum we dont know about, I'm not sure torture should be used unless a probable connection can be made between a person and a crime.
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retrospect.
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 5:03 am Post subject: |
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| Sniper_Zegai wrote: |
| Unless there is a truth serum we dont know about, I'm not sure torture should be used unless a probable connection can be made between a person and a crime. |
sodium barbiturate :D
except it doesn't really make people tell the truth. it just gets them really high
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Sniper_Zegai
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 5:23 am Post subject: |
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| retrospect. wrote: |
sodium barbiturate :D
except it doesn't really make people tell the truth. it just gets them really high |
lol I can imagine Georg Bushs' next speech "Well the reason we could'nt find the arms cache is because the person we obtained the information from was really high, oh well easy mistake"
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retrospect.
Cosby You! Black Entertainer
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 5:27 am Post subject: |
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"our intelligence bureau told me it was a truth serum, they were wrong, that's just an urban myth, but atleast we tried"
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Sniper_Zegai
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 11:01 am Post subject: |
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lol, oh georgie. You may be stupid but at least your the stupid we know. :roll:
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Phamex
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:16 am Post subject: |
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| LordKratos wrote: |
| If someone is threatening to rip out your spleen I think you'll say anything to get out of the situation...meaning torture will most likely get you false information. |
THANK YOU!!! I don't think I could agree more.
Also, I don't like the phrase, "For the greater good." It's an excuse, and the more I hear it the less meaning it has. It falls into the same category as, "I hate to tell you this, but..." Obviously not or you'd keep your mouth shut. I don't like either phrase because they precede distasteful things and only serve to make ourselves feel better about hurting others. I realize that we don't live in a utopian society, but let's at least be honest with ourselves. |
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