Why Pesmerga Deserves More [Not a theory, but a discussion]

[Aurelien]

In the other thread that now got locked, sybillious mentioned that intelligent Pesmerga fans have yet to step forward and distinguish themselves from the bulk of the 'fandom'. Then she also mentioned that when that happens, then some of the held stereotypes might fall, but not until then. So hopefully I'll do justice and the (some of the) stereotype would indeed fall.

But first I'll explain why it took me so long to come out and say that I do like Pesmerga. In fact, no one really knew this other than myself, I almost registered as "Black Pesmerga" back in 2001 on Suikosource message board instead of . And looking back, I'm kind of glad that I chose instead of "Black Pesmerga". I don't really know why, but it seems that Pesmerga is always the character that being bashed very often, and even used as the loser in comparison to Hai Yo in showing how important rune slots are in Suikoden II. Why they didn't choose Georg or Humphrey or Clive or other one slotters, that remains a mystery.

With all those negativity (some jokes, some serious), I was afraid to say it out loud that I like Pesmerga. Let's face it, most of the intelligent fans now looked down upon people who like Pesmerga. Since I don't want to be looked down by others, I keep my hands tied and not type anything that would say that I like Pesmerga. I was simply afraid that people would laugh at me for liking Pesmerga based on his looks, because I honestly like knight-characters, and Pesmerga was a Black Knight. But somehow the cool armor seem to be a shallow reason to like a character.

But enough is enough. So here I am, trying to break the stereotype with what hopefully would be considered as "intelligent" reasons on why I like Pesmerga, and why Pesmerga isn't as bad as they seem to think.

1. Appearance.
Though I mentioned that it seems that liking a character based on the "cool look" is seen as shallow reason, I personally think that it's not. A character, before you get to use him in the game, would first catch the player's attention by their look. Appearance of a character could make a player want to use them or avoid them at all cost (see how many people got turned off by Kenji). So appearance is quite important when it comes to how appealing a character is to the players. But what's so special about Pesmerga's appearance?

With the exception of Kwanda, Pesmerga was the only character in Suikoden I that used full set of heavy armor. And we can safely say that Kwanda's set of armor gave him the look of a bullet rather than a Great General. On the other hand, Pesmerga's full set of armor did complement his position as a Black Knight. So from the appearance, Pesmerga was the one that stood out among the 108 SoDs in Suikoden I. The same could be said for Suikoden II as well.

Now enter Yuber's role. It's quite a fact that some (most?) people tend to consider the villains as cool, and (some of) the players ended up having the villain as the favorite character of the game (e.g.: Sephiroth, Seifer, Luca Blight, Jowy Blight, Hrist Valkyrie, Magus, etc). Pesmerga's look was very similar to Yuber and that helped further boost why his appearance became so appealing to the fans. Since we can't use Yuber (for Suikoden I and II that is), Pesmerga was the only way for us to use the Black Knight (which is what Yuber was) in the games.

2. Gameplay Stats.
When talking about gameplay stats of Pesmerga, most people would jump to how weak he was in Suikoden II because he only had 1 rune slot. People tend to forget that in Suikoden I, Pesmerga was 1 of the 3 SoDs that could max the PWR stat. And with the fact that we can only attach 1 rune in Suikoden I, Pesmerga was simply one of the strongest character in Suikoden I. Coupled with his huge HP (again, able to max it) and high DEF (max. of 245), Pesmerga was definitely one of the ultimate physical characters in Suikoden I. Not only he could deal high damage, he could also survive lots of attack due to his high DEF and HP.

Now onto Suikoden II's part. I personally don't get what's so wrong with him either. While yes he no longer was one of the strongest in the game, but he was hardly a weak character either. Again, able to max STR, Rage Rune attached on WPN, and an open slot (removable Counter Rune). So if you attach a Double Beat Rune, and max his WPN level, he easily dealt (say his STR is 200 instead of 255):
ATK = 200 + 160 = 360
Rage Rune on WPN = 360 + 180 = 540
Double Beat = 540 twice = 1080 damage

1080 damage by a single character isn't all that bad at all, is it? That's enough to kill every 1 non-boss monster (except Collossus and Bronzem) in 1 turn. So that's the offense part. Now move on to the defense part.

Pesmerga's PROT stat in Suikoden II wasn't really high, but with his permanent heavy armor/accessories, the DEF stat would come out reasonably high. How about his MDEF? His MDEF can be maxed at 255. He is the only SoD in Suikoden II that can max MDEF while having really high STR (as in 245-255 range). So not only he can deal decent-high damage, he can reveice both physical and magical damage well enough. Added with his high HP (900-999 range), it's quite a (bad) miracle if you managed to get him KO'ed.

Suikoden II's major battle required quite a strategy compared to Suikoden I. And in Suikoden II's major battle, Pesmerga has a +3/0 stat with Cavalry skill. Arguably the best unit in major battle along with Shu (+3/+1 with Critical and Evade), and even better if they both are combined into 1 unit.

Having said all that, I come to conclusion that even from gameplay's point of view, Pesmerga is a very useful character in both Suikoden I and Suikoden II.

3. Storyline/Characteristic.
I'm going to admit it straight away that we don't really know much about Pesmerga. But at the same time, it is exactly why we should be given more chance at knowing him. In the other thread, sybillious mentioned that there has been 3 games to portray Pesmerga, but he was left as colorless character unlike Jeane and Viki (who were considered as "mystery"). I partially agree with that opinion. I agree because I do feel that Pesmerga's character could be exposed even more than what was done, but I disagree because it was obvious already that Pesmerga was there to hunt Yuber. So there was no important need for him to be shown more than "A mysterious black knight who hunts Yuber" because we hope that all would be revealed once they confronted each other (which hopefully would still happen someday in the future games). So his mystery was more on "why he was looking for Yuber" instead of "who is Pesmerga?" Hence, no need for him to be explained in detail until the confrontation (if that were to happen now that Murayama was no longer in the company).

On the other hand, both Viki and Jeane's mysteries revolved more on their identity of "what are they?" than "why are they here?". So we got them shoved into our throat on every game (as the compulsory teleporter and runemistress) while releasing tiny bit of hint on every game to say what they are. So they are different cases than Pesmerga's.

So we go back to the original question of how come Pesmerga was so appealing while he practically had almost zero characteristic/background? The answer is, his unknown relationship to Yuber. As I've mentioned earlier, some people tend to get attached to the villains, and when they do, they want to use the villains (we even got some people who wish to have a Suikoden II game on Jowy's point of view). So the closest thing to Yuber is definitely Pesmerga. People hope that by liking Pesmerga, he would get more attention and the whole story between Yuber and him would be revealed.

Why Konami ignored Pesmerga in Suikoden III remains a mystery. Though I have a sneaky suspicion that we'd have a future Suikoden game that would have Pesmerga in it without having Yuber in it. That way we might learn more on Pesmerga like how we kind of learn a bit more on Yuber in Suikoden III.

End Note
I feel that I've covered the reasons on why Pesmerga was likable. 3 different reasons in detail should be enough, but if any of you have further enquiries, and would like to discuss some of the things in more detail, feel free to do so. I'll try my best to give satisfying answer. Thank you if you survive reading up to here.

Cheers.
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~City-States of Jowston and Tinto Republic~
06.06.2004 - 20.01.2008

[Kohaku]

Bugg (oops, I mean Black pesmerga), that was a LOT of texts. I don't have much to say here because I myself like Pesmerga 'cause I think he's cool looking (just like groupies). Congratulation on the will-be debating with the anti-Pesmerga (hehehe, I've seen a lot of debate like that in some of anti-Bolton site, and it's hilarious)
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[Neclord]

Well first of all I want to say I like Pesmerga as well and always use him in my games when I play them. That being said...

I could care less what people might think of me because of that. I would never remain silent that I like a character or that I am a fan of a character just because others look down on it. The facts remain, I like who I like. I like Pesmerga because he is the black knight endlessly chasing after Yuber but always one step behind it seems.

I could care less about his rune slots, he is a tank, a heavy hitter he doesn't need a multitude of runes.

Aside from gameplay, He is a treasure trove of a character, so many angles could be played from him and his enemy Yuber. Black is my favorite color so naturally the black knight would be a character I adore.

Being silent because you like Pesmerga? That is just silly to me, all Pesmerga fans should rise up in revolt :P 8)

[Futch]

To be sincere Black Pesmerga, I think anyone has the right to like Pesmerga becaue of his looks, his face, avatar, or whatever.

No one can tell you that your reasons for liking pesmerga are logical, or stupid or anything as such.

This is simply because it's a subjective matter, a question of taste, it's not as some math formula, something that can be determined, there just isn't ANY standard for such thing.It would be as stupid as discussing which color is better Red, or Green.

What I personally think, is that you should't worry about what other people may think of you, and If someone insults you, or treats you wrong because of such a thing, they are really not worth the effort of being called friends, or a "nice person" to talk to.

Which this said, I finish by stating that I do not like Pesmerga, nor do I hate him either.
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DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

[Acheron]

I agree with you there Futch, it is all a matter of taste. There are subjective things about it, but not all subjective. If Pesmerga has great battle stats in 1, it may very well be a superior character to others, that don't really have as much storyline, purpose, and battle usefulnes. And really you shouldn't be attacking the fact that someone is defending there character when others attacked them first. You should probably be lecturing someone who was attacking Pesy fans. And Red is so much better than green, we had a debate about it in debate class.

[Anton Misri]

I think Pesmerga is nice character to have for purpose of adding mysterious in Suikoden world. But any "fans" who have lousy reason for liking a character is comitting disservice to character in question. If many people like certain character for frivolous reason, it have psychological effect causing inflation in character's "perceived worth." This is just my understanding, not anything serious, but it become bothersom after I hear hundreds of people say "Luc is cool because he look pretty" or "Viktor rocks because he look like bear!" The same go with Pesmerga because many people use him as avatar in many forum I visit, and say he is "badass" and that is all I hear. It very refreshing to hear more in-depth opinion, which I very glad to hear from Black Pesmerga above.

However, I think it premature for saying "anti-Pesmerga people wrong" because they have legitimate reason; If more people have good reason for perfer certain character, I am sure people less hostile. It is obvious people who dislike Pesmerga fans actually just dislike people who give no good reason; this is understandable for me.
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[Aurelien]

[Anton Misri]

I think it impossble to define "lousy" and "in-depth" because it largely subjective. If you wish to find concrete definition for this, you never will find this. It is like saying "personal taste" should have guidelines.

I think any opinion have chance for getting shot down if it have little support. That mean that opinion is weak. If people able to defend their opinion, the opinion become strong. To argue that every opinion has right to exist is moot for reason that, yes, they do have a right to exist. However, every opinion also have chance for being attacked if it is weak. You will never have resolution in arguing this, because only way to say "this opinion is wrong" is through restriction of free speech.

I think your argument for Pesmerga is good, it is not "lousy" at all and I like it. This is how I see it, and maybe other disagree. I hope you not take my comment as attack of your opinion, because I not mean this. Please don't think this!
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[Aurelien]

I can't write long reply, so I'll keep this short.

[Anton Misri]

I agree for subjectivity, but what I say above is that there are "popular" and "unpopular" opinions. Opinions that have no defense ultimately become extinct, and opinion that have good defense continue to survive. This is how opinion evolve into stronger opinion. So far, Pesmerga fan opinion have been weak. Maybe you change this now?
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[Tony Stark]

Must there be a reason to like Pesmerga? When did things get some complex? Pesmerga is likable simply by his way of talking and his appearance. It's the same way Link is likable it's the same way Mario is likable. In other words, there doesn't have to be a complex reason to like someone, you can merely like them. Why do you have to explain it?

Let me give you an example. Among the characters I like in Suikoden, Alen is in the top tier. Now, he doesn't have a lot of dialogue, and in reality I was first drawn to him from his appearance. In battle he isn't all too great, but I still use him because I like him. Because off the little dialogue I saw, off the little I saw of him in the actual plot I really like him. Even if it were just his appearance is that not legitimate?

Disagree all you want.
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[Aurelien]

[Vextor]

Let me make it clear. People who don't have a good reason to like a character (and good reasons = what myself and other mods think are good reasons) and try to say "(character) is the best!!" will be treated harshly, become the butt-end of jokes, and will generally feel marginalized. This isn't aimed at Black Pesmerga at all because he explains things well, in my opinion, but instead aimed at all of the others crawling out of the woodwork after seeing Black Pesmerga's topic. If you don't like it or if you disagree, it's time to pack up and move along because you're gonna be a pain in the backside for those who are running the site.

With that said, let me explain why "Pesmerga fans" are particularly a problem for site administrators (and I am speaking for a number of other suikoden site's administrators when I say this). Suikosource routinely deletes old threads, but even then, there are 11 topics that are about Pesmerga, and some of them say the same thing (such as "is Pesmerga in Suikoden 3?") and 4 of those threads are closed because they are meaningless threads (from an admin perspective). Suikox has only 6 Pesmerga-related threads right now, but that is mainly because we have deleted threads asking if Tory is Pesmerga, if Duke is Pesmegra, why is Pesmerga angry, etc.... etc etc. Liking him is fine, but making similar, frivolous threads that won't produce much discussion is a nuisance and it clutters up the boards.

Also, Pesmerga fans top the list of hot-link violators--most of the time they hot-link from suikosource. Interestingly, there aren't much of any cases like this outside Pesmerga. For this reason, admins often "dis" Pesmerga fans--it's a common passtime between admins here and suikosource to poke fun at the fandom.

That's basically why you see admins and mods being mean to those who make frivolous threads. We have a site to run, and we want to keep the place clean of certain topics at the discretion of the mods. This site was originally created to be a safe-haven for fans who already know a lot about Suikoden, it is basically a place for people who others would consider "suiko-snobs" can congregate without being messed around with. This site is also composed of an older audience compared to many other game sites; many people are already professionals and some are even married (what a shocker, suikoden fans can get married!?), so there will be greater instances of "talking down."

There are many other sites that people can talk about frivolous topics to your heart's content, such as gamefaqs, rpgfan, IGN, or perhaps friendlier suikoden sites such as harmonia-online.org, suikonline.org, or in-solis.com (or was it .net or ,org?). I'll do everything in my power to "redirect" people to other sites if they're making undesirable topics, and that is basically my business due to the fact that I own this site. Nobody is allowed to disagree with that fact, if they want to stay here. Again, this isn't aimed at this topic at all, or Black Pesmerga. Just making sure people don't get the wrong idea.

[sybillious]

ironically, futch contradicts himself; in here he claims that you don't need a reason to like/dislike a character; what about a fandom? you said that the fanboys/girls made you dislike one of the ff series *don't remember which one* yet you say this in here. which is it? you do or don't need a reason; don't say one thing in one place, then contradict yourself in another *this was found in the 'games you hate most' thread, btw.*

you either need a justification or don't, but don't try to claim both angles; it looks foolish, bordering on hypocritical.

on a related note, i simply don't care who someone likes; what i don't like seeing is someone making threads about character x for the reasons sars listed-if you have a reason, fine, great; just don't make pointless threads, or ones that argue with 'you have to admit...' no one has to admit or agree with them, period. you like them, they don't; enough said.
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prinny...DOOD!

gotta gotta get a...SPICE WEASEL!

to paraphrase my fellow mod, parallax:
I hate my job with the passionately burning intensity of a thousand fiery suns.

[Futch]