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Yvl
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 Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 1:28 am Post subject: |
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The what now?
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John Layfield
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| Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 1:33 am Post subject: |
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| whileheavenwept wrote: |
| In Suikoden II Tir and Gremio make a reappearance, even though their entire story from Suikoden I was concluded. |
As an optional subplot that lasted all of twenty minutes.
The original post dealt with crudely inserting Viktor and Flik into every Suikoden game to "continue their story" (which was only then changed to "Uh, I meant small cameos" when it was refuted time and again) even via time travel if neccessary.
Would I like it if, say, Suikoden IV started with Tir McDohl finding an enchanted jockstrap that transported him across time and space to the Island Nations of 150 years ago where he became the Tenaki Star again for some reason in a similar fashion to what the poster McDohl had in mind of Viktor? No.
Over 110 characters with names, histories and official artwork are introduced in each main stream Suikoden game. Why stick with the same two, who, by the way, aren't really that interesting! Viktor's a gruff, but warm, tough guy, Flik has a stick up his ass but is nice, really. Wow, we must see more of this original character development! |
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Yvl
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| Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 1:37 am Post subject: |
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Viktor's a gruff, but warm, tough guy, Flik has a stick up his ass but is nice, really.
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The same can be said of pretty much all those who share their stars.
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John Layfield
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| Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 1:42 am Post subject: |
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Indeed. So you may as well get some milage out of the new, but similar in conception, characters. That way, instead of having only one developed Tenko Star and one developed Tenan Star you have, gasp, more than one. And maybe this is just in crazy JBL Town but a greater amount of developed characters is, to me, A Good Thing. :D
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Scarlet Assassin
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| Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 2:34 am Post subject: |
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Is it just me or is this entire thread ridiculous? (Oh wait, John's here, of course it's ridiculous.) Every plot point and major event in both their lives has been covered by a game or an official publication. The two of them are getting older and I think it's about time that Viktor rest that bum leg of his and Flik finishes his quest for manhood. There is zero need to recycle old characters, especially when you'd have to resort to flimsy pretexts like TIME TRAVEL to do so. The Zodiac sword has never been confirmed as having the power to transport people through time. For all we know, Tir and crew were all having acid flashbacks from the robber's tea and thought they went back in time. It's a moot point by now but I can't believe that some of you can't accept this, Flik and Viktor have finished their stories. I don't want to see them again. Yeah it would be funny, yeah it would be heartwarming, but there are much better ways to accomplish those goals without recycling the same characters and essentially, the same jokes. How many times can you see Viktor flip out and Flik get hit on by some ditz before both event cease to have any meaning?
Part of me really wishes they had died in Greminster so they could have the death they deserved and no one would be whining about wanting them back.
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Rune of Corruption
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| Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 3:22 am Post subject: |
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First of all, Tir and Gremio don't have very big fanbases so you hear too much about them at all. Second of all, I said that wondering characters have higher chance of coming back. There are many characters like this most of which have an actual story to tell. Then there new characters with previously unkown stories that could be way more interesting than the returning of any old character.
Suikoden 2 was my first Suikoden so I didn't care about Tir or Gremio until after I played Suikoden 1 which was after I played 4. You seem to underestimate the power of fanboyism. Every time I go to any Suikoden board there are only six names that stand out. Those are Pesmerga, Yuber, Jeane, Viktor, Viki, and Flick. These characters seem to take precedence over the heros of the games. Why because fans like them. Pesmerga has been in two games, Yuber three, and Jeane been in all five so has Viki.Two of thesecharacters seem to break the time constraints, but apparently all of these characters are more than meets the eye. Can the same be said about Viktor and Flick? No. Those two are normal humans who had to fight in two wars and countless conflicts, such is the life of a mercenary but there are plenty of other mercenaries.
All I want to know is why? Why should they come back? They have been in two games already. What is the point? The main reason why Viktor, Flick, Jeane, Viki, Pesmerga, Yuber, Luc, Valeria, Kasumi, Apple, Stallion, Tir, Lepant, Sheena, Futch, Humphrey, Gremio, and many others came back because most of these characters all had wondered into the Dunan area and the time between Suikoden 1 and 2 is relatively short so as a shout out to the fan base of Suikoden 1 they brought back many characters and even had the new republic working with Riou's army. These two nations had bad blood between each other so it would have a story element to it as well. Basically there was story elements as well as fan appreciation going on in all the returning characters. Tir's return sort of proves seeing how you had to have suikoden 1 save data or a gameshark to get him and then he doesn't officially join he just sort of there as a shout out to those who had experienced his story.
It is possible for them to come back in one last Suikoden game before they are either killed or just retires from the mercenary life and live out their old age in peace, but it is not likely. There way too many characters that need more fleshing out than just two characters come back as a shout out to the fan base. Although there is a lot shouting back to the fans during the time between Suikoden 2 and 1, now the creators seems to be constantly adding to the Suikoden world as whole that is probably why we are seeing last few games set in the past so how could Viktor or Flick, two normal humans, return to the past some 400 years before their creation( literally). And when the creators decide to go to the future who is to say that Flick or Victor would be there? Who is to say that would be alive? I'd say if they do come back they would likely be bonus characters like Tir was in 2.
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Aurelien
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| Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 3:33 am Post subject: |
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| whileheavenwept wrote: |
| Where was the Higheast Rebellion covered? I haven't read any of the published mangas/comic novels on suikoden, was it in one of those? I have only heard about the Higheast Rebellion on different sites. |
It wasn't covered in full-detail by any means, but it has concluded with the victory of the Jowston side over the rebellion side. And without turning this thread into "I (don't) want to see a Suikoden game with Higheast Rebellion as the main story", the point remains that it has covered the beginning (Flik and Viktor participated) and the end (Jowston's victory). What happened in-between is a bit less relevant because it's just a missing piece rather than "there's something that can come out of it" or "there's something that needs to be finished" that would warrant another appearance.
| whileheavenwept wrote: |
| I think I would be satisfied with any of them, even if they just happened to be in a Town Inn having a brew with no real significance to the plot. |
To be honest, if they must somehow appear again in the future, I do prefer to see them in cameo role as NPC that aren't related to the main plot by any means. Like you mentioned there, maybe just opened up an inn. Or a new village's chief or whatever, really. But don't make them playable.
However, one thing that I'm worried with is that Konami might start to abuse Flik and Viktor in such role that they might become the equivalent of the name "Cid" in Final Fantasy series. Appear in all game regardless in what form and for whatever purpose. I really would like such thing to be avoided at any cost. It is not a good thing when a series needs to cling and rely on certain characters to stay alive. The fact that Suikoden did just well without having Flik and Viktor post Suikoden II showed that they are not as important as some of their fans would like to think. And that is a good thing for all of us.
To me, the end of Viktor and Flik is a good thing because that way they quit while they're on top doing what they do best. Having a closure is a nice thing, but by no means a necessity.
| whileheavenwept wrote: |
| If that were true then they would be a Viktor and Flik fan, not a Suikoden fan. |
While I wouldn't use the term "Flik and Viktor fan instead of Suikoden fan", I've seen some people being annoyed with their non-appearance in post-Suikoden II games. It's quite a fair guess to say that they are the most popular Suikoden characters (at least among non-Japanese fans, I have no idea whether the Japanese fans also like them that much or not), and even here in Suikox, we can see that there are more threads about Flik/Viktor than any other characters that have their [known] story finished.
And sadly, some of the fans do worship Flik and Viktor too much. Even the topic creator went as far as saying that Flik and Viktor are the key ingredients of what made Suikoden I and II to be brilliant. I don't know if he's a Suikoden fan or just Flik and Viktor fan, but I'm sure that Konami would prefer to have a fan who can appreciate the game rather than the characters.
You are a reasonable Flik and Viktor fan, I have seen people like you too. You are smart enough to realize that two characters don't make or break the game. However, there are those who don't realize that. The general comments were more directed to the people who fall into this category rather than to you.
Let's just use Suikoden III as the perfect example. According to the timeline, Viktor and Flik can still appear as they are old/young enough to show up and fight. However, I've explained that Suikoden III's focus is something else. But many Flik and Viktor fans could not even understand that. Most of them just jumped to the conclusion of "They should've been there, they can still fight, they're mercenaries and they will show up when war happened" and so on. All those comments without even considering that the storyline would not require their appearance. Yes, Flik and Viktor are mercenaries, but even mercenaries don't just show up everywhere. It's not like "Oh, there's a war at Grasslands, let's go there and advertise for our service" by any means.
So it's not as simple as "They can appear, so they must appear". There need to be a reason for their appearance. Of course crappy reason can be made out of thin air if we really want to, but to me, that would only damage their character value. They're great characters in Suikoden I and II, let's just remember them for what they have done rather than constantly hoping for them to show up again.
| whileheavenwept wrote: |
| In Suikoden II Tir and Gremio make a reappearance, even though their entire story from Suikoden I was concluded, did you not like that? |
To me, those two cases are very different though. Tir's appearance is as a bonus for loading save data, it is not related to the storyline in one bit, and it's more of 'for fun' rather than as the focus. Therefore, it makes sense as the focus of their apperance is simply for nostalic reasons. However, what the topic creator wanted is for Viktor and Flik to take the center stage in Suikoden III and IV just because they can appear in those games.
I have yet to see someone create a thread about wanting to see more Flik and Viktor, and then say only for them to be optional and/or making cameo appearance. All of them had wished for Flik and Viktor to take center stage and show the world how great they are.
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ViktorFan
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| Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 4:54 am Post subject: |
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| Like my name says: Viktor is my favorite character and I am his fan. But that doesn't mean that I'm only a "Viktorfan" and not a "Suikodenfan" or that I'm fanatic. I don't say that both made Suikoden I and II brilliant. I like both games very much because of the stories and Viktor was the "extra" for me, as my favorite character. Even though I am his fan I don't want to have him back in another Suikoden game, I don't want to have him (and Flik) also as a NPC. Not because this wouldn't be enough for me (because they wouldn't be playable) but their story is told. I think it would be enough when a character appears in the most of two games, this should be enough to tell his/her story (if the story can't be told in one game). For me it's boring to see Jeane and Viki in every game, but the fact they always appear isn't to tell their story (can't remember Jeane's "story" in Suikoden I) but for other reasons, that's my opinion and another topic. I say this because some mentioned their names. Back to Viktor and Flik: You don't need to have them in every Suikoden game, they can be favorite characters by being "only" in two games. |
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MichaelW
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| Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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I speculate that Viktor & Flik will fight in the last Suikoden game. They should be in the final game. The two should appear only if the story fits right.
Viki & Jeane are now the "Cids"(Final Fantasy ) of Suikoden. So I expect those two to not be absent from the main games. |
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Rezard
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| Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 11:47 am Post subject: |
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I don't understand you guys.
You are complaining about people who want them back because they are popular, but are you saying they can't appear because they are popular?
What's the problem on popular characters appearing again? Do you prefer having lots of characters that don't matter a bit?
If we are to be rational, Viktor and Flik can appear again if done nice, if konami can make a good script with them, bring them back, if they can't, them don't. I don't understand what the problem is.
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| So it's not as simple as "They can appear, so they must appear". There need to be a reason for their appearance. Of course crappy reason can be made out of thin air if we really want to, but to me, that would only damage their character value. They're great characters in Suikoden I and II, let's just remember them for what they have done rather than constantly hoping for them to show up again. |
They didn't have any reason to appear in Suikoden II, they appeared there because it was fun. If it's fun to see them, any reason will do fine. Suikoden IV and V have some logical problems in my opinion, but nobody never cared.
It doesn't matter that they appeared too much, it's better to have 2 good developed characters, than a lot of underdeveloped ones. Sure, maybe it's not possible to bring them back and this be still fun, but that doesn't mean we can't at least think about that, just because they appeared in 2 games.
BTW, their history isn't fully told, Viktor has no reason to live anymore and Flik didn't get over Odessa's death, but in the rest, I agree with most people, I think they appearing in smaller roles would be best, if they are to appear. |
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Ryusei
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| Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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| What's the problem on popular characters appearing again? |
Nothing, unless they have a very good reason to do so. Viktor and Flik have received their own spotlight and made quite an impact to the stories they have been on, so there's no reason to bring them back again, unless Konami sucks up to the fandom of these two guys.
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| It doesn't matter that they appeared too much, it's better to have 2 good developed characters, than a lot of underdeveloped ones. |
Sure, but it doesn't mean that if we got two good developped characters, all the others are underdevelopped. Viktor and Flik were in Suikoden I and Suikoden II, and there were underdevelopped characters. Viktor and Flik weren't in Suikoden III, IV, and V, and still there were underdevelopped characters.
See, there will always be underdevelopped characters. The problem lies on the characters who receive the development. It's not really fun to see the same characters being overdevelopped over and over again. The other characters who are either underdevelopped or have not yet appeared should be the ones receiving this character development you speak of, not the already developped ones.
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| BTW, their history isn't fully told, Viktor has no reason to live anymore and Flik didn't get over Odessa's death. |
Sure it isn't. But that doesn't mean that they need to be told. Riou ran away from Dunan with Jowy and Nanami, and thier story hasn't been told. Geddoe and co. had adventures too, but they weren't told as well. Just that if a character's history isn't fully told doesn't mean that they need to appear again. Remember, Suikoden isn't about the characters. It is about True Runes, and countries who are in conflict because of these runes. |
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Rezard
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| Posted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Ryusei wrote: |
| Sure it isn't. But that doesn't mean that they need to be told. Riou ran away from Dunan with Jowy and Nanami, and thier story hasn't been told. Geddoe and co. had adventures too, but they weren't told as well. Just that if a character's history isn't fully told doesn't mean that they need to appear again. Remember, Suikoden isn't about the characters. It is about True Runes, and countries who are in conflict because of these runes. |
I thought Suikoden was about the characters and how the war and the true runes affected them. These are only accessory to the characters.
You can have a Suikoden without a True rune, even without a war (it would be hard), but it will be impossible to do a suikoden without characters. Imagine a Suikoden without dialogue, without character development, it would suck.
I'm not saying they have to appear no matter what, I'm just saying they can appear if it is fun, or, like you said, if there is reason (there will be reason if it's fun). |
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Rune of Corruption
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| Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 1:32 am Post subject: |
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| Rezard wrote: |
| Ryusei wrote: |
| Sure it isn't. But that doesn't mean that they need to be told. Riou ran away from Dunan with Jowy and Nanami, and thier story hasn't been told. Geddoe and co. had adventures too, but they weren't told as well. Just that if a character's history isn't fully told doesn't mean that they need to appear again. Remember, Suikoden isn't about the characters. It is about True Runes, and countries who are in conflict because of these runes. |
I thought Suikoden was about the characters and how the war and the true runes affected them. These are only accessory to the characters.
You can have a Suikoden without a True rune, even without a war (it would be hard), but it will be impossible to do a suikoden without characters. Imagine a Suikoden without dialogue, without character development, it would suck.
I'm not saying they have to appear no matter what, I'm just saying they can appear if it is fun, or, like you said, if there is reason (there will be reason if it's fun). |
There is a chance that any random character could return in a suikoden game. That is how Suikoden is it is a living breathing world where time passes at a normal rate for those who are plain humans. If the time is right they could possibly return in the future or have an unexplored and important in the goings on around that character. Viktor and Flik already have done this in the first game, and they prominent roles in the second game. Now to bring them back again will reduce them to gimmick characters like Viki may be.
Suikoden is mostly about a war and the people caught up in that war at the time. Usually a true rune is apparent someplace during this war, but is not always involved or even indirectly involved in the war. They may be the reason certain choices made in the game.
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