MP3, remix, ROM, and other exchanges at suikox.com

[Vextor]

Discussion about swapping or even the manufacture of such things are not allowed at suikox.com unless you provide proof that you own the copyright to the source material (which I severely doubt in any case). If you don't own the copyright, it is illegal to make copies of it and send it elsewhere/give them away/sell them. Just because you tweaked it into a "remix" doesn't absolve you from legal obligations--you won't even get a secondary copyright unless you have prior apporval from the original copyright holder.

All this should be simple to guess from the "no illegal activities" rule.

[Arcana]

Can I post up my own original song that is based off of a Suikoden song? Or is that strictly forbidden?

(I'm asking because you'll often see artwork swapped on the board, and the exchange of that is strictly illegal as well).
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Woo, 2000 posts as of Tuesday, 2007 August 28.

[kuwaizair]

I guess sheet music, Flash animations and the likes should fall into the same catigory too huh?

hell why not fan art?
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few runes short of a set of 27

[Eggith Cyrene]

Its called Private Messages people. Just keep that stuff off the boards.
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"Hearing the CRY of VICTORY, He rests in Peace"



Suikoden 5 didnt make me less of a fan; it restored my faith after the abomination that was suikoden 4.

[kuwaizair]

but how do we know somone has somthing? I mean I'm Horrible at music. and if I want a, hard rock version of "theme of sadness", whom do I ask? OC remix is filed with the deaf and unintersted.
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few runes short of a set of 27

[Vextor]

The "fair use" clause within the international copyright law protects anyone from making or displaying copyrighted graphial art as long as it is done for non-commercial purposes.

[kuwaizair]

oh, what is I were selling fan art? Ive seen people do it elsewere.

wouldn't re-writing songs for no profit be one of these also? not all remixes are done with the orginal files, some people study the notes and replay it. like if I had a band and we did suiko music, because we are game nerds. I can't share right? the same with .MID files? I mean I dind't write the peices, so why should I rewrite it no?
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few runes short of a set of 27

[Vextor]

"fair use" only applies to graphical artwork.

[Arcana]

Are you sure about that? I know that the folks over at OCRemix (who, if you don't know, dedicate the entire community to the rearrangement of video game music) have yet to receive any kind of lawsuit or even a warning. In fact, many music professionals from the field have congratulated them on what they were doing.

Sorry SARSAdmin, I don't mean to turn this into a controversial topic, but I don't think that saying people can draw fan-art, but not post rearranged Suikoden music is fair toward us musicians in the crowd. For example, I mentioned SGX's remix of "Forgotten Days" from Suikoden in the "Suikoden Music" thread - does that count as a violation of board policy? Do you have proof that the fair use clause applies only to art, and not musical works?
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Woo, 2000 posts as of Tuesday, 2007 August 28.

[Vextor]

Are people too lazy to do their own research these days? It's a public document.

BERNE CONVENTION FOR THE PROTECTION OF
LITERARY AND ARTISTIC WORKS (Paris Text 1971)

Article 10

(1) It shall be permissible to make quotations from a work which has already been lawfully made available to the public, provided that their making is compatible with fair practice, and their extent does not exceed that justified by the purpose, including quotations from newspaper articles and periodicals in the form of press summaries.

(2) It shall be a matter for legislation in the countries of the Union, and for special agreements existing or to be concluded between them, to permit the utilization, to the extent justified by the purpose, of literary or artistic works by way of illustration in publications, broadcasts or sound or visual recordings for teaching, provided such utilization is compatible with fair practice.

(3) Where use is made of works in accordance with the preceding paragraphs of this Article, mention shall be made of the source, and of the name of the author, if it appears thereon.

So, "sound" does apply. However, "remix"es does not fall under "fair use" because it is modified. "fair use" only allows the original copyrighted work to be reproduced exactly as its original without any modification. The only way music can be used under the "fair use" clause is if it is used as a part of a presentation or thesis as supporting material. Otherwise, it is illegal to reproduce them. So your friend's suikoden remix is indeed illegal, but Konami won't likely press charges against something like that. However, they probably will if your friend starts selling it for cash. Go call a copyright lawyer and he'll tell you the same (it's free to get advice from them).

Fanart is completely different because they are drawn from scratch, and it is very rare for computer game characters to actually have "character rights" (with the glaring exception of the Mickey Mouse case). Modifying original artwork, or posting original artwork made by Konami when it is not a part of a presentation or thesis is illegal.


Here is an additional suppliment in case you live in the USA:



USA Copyright Law: Article 107: Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair Use

Notwithstanding the provisions of section 106, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phone records or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use, the factors to be considered shall include:

1. The purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
2. the nature of the copyrighted work;
3. the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work. (added pub. l 94-553, Title I, 101, Oct 19, 1976, 90 Stat 2546)

Thus, distribution of copyrighted music and remixes can not be supported under USA copyright laws unless these are used for non-profit, educational puroposes. Also, in terms of "substantiality," the music would tend to be reproduced 100%, or at least a huge portion will be used--it clearly violates copyright. Some copyright holders don't care, and may even encourage people to make remixes. In such cases, there is no problem, obviously.

[Arcana]

There is a flaw in your logic, SARSAdmin ...

[Vextor]

Good luck arguing that with a judge.

DJs can be sued if they produce and circulate remixes without having the proper licences from the copyright holder of the original music. DJs employed by clubs and redio stations will be covered by their employer's licence, so they will have no problem.

Your technical argumentation will hold no ground in a court of law, and is bad legal advice. You probably should study some actual cases and see how many people get in trouble with the FCC and other media groups for violating copyright laws they thought were "not very big deals."

[Arcana]

Do you have any documentation of these actual cases? I'm attempting to locate some, but I'm coming up dry.

Edit: What about the "signatures" usage of artwork, or fan art? Is that illegal, or not?
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Woo, 2000 posts as of Tuesday, 2007 August 28.

[Vextor]

For a high-profile case, look for DJ Danger Mouse's "Gray Album" issue where the album was pretty much stopped by the government after EMI issued a cease and desist order.

You can find loads of current cases at the RIAA site.

Usage of artwork in your signature? Yeah, that would be illegal under copyright laws if you don't have permission from the copyright holder. If you're using fanart from elsewhere and are doing it without the premission of the artist, the artist can sue you (although not for money unless you made a profit, but still it would be a huge dent in your back account).

It should be pretty clear what is and isn't allowed if you read the international and US copyright codes. Not-for profit uses are rarely if ever pursued by copyright holders though, but it's typically best to ask the copyright holders for their use.

[Arcana]

Analysis by the Electronic Frontier Foundation claims that the use of the "sample" is not sigificant enough to constitute a violation of copyright law:

http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/ca9/nwopinions.nsf/38D1DF2306D7CD8C88256DD4 005CF20B/$file/0255983.pdf

Also, the case never made it to courts, according to my readings... after EMI sent out a Cease and Desist letter, there was a huge backlash leading to the hosting of "Gray Tuesday.

http://wired.com/news/digiwood/0,1412,62372,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_2
http://www.greytuesday.org/

The stories refer extensively to the use of sampling, but do not mention anything about performing a replication of certain notes or melodies in another musical work.

On the RIAA site, the only references to cases I can find pertain to piracy - the direct copy of work vertabim. There is nothing there that would apply to derivative work.

However, current copyright law would declare that the creation of derivative works of music and/or artwork would require permission of the copyright holder - usually the artist who first produced the work. If you want to forbid the discussion of making music and the posting of arranged music, will you also forbid the distribution of signatures and avatars that use artwork without express permission from the copyright holders, and forbid the creation of derivative work using copyrighted art?

The main crux that I'm having here is not that it's illegal. Really, by the books, it is. Making remixes, drawing fanart, making avatars using other people's art... it's all illegal. However, most people don't care. OCRemix and VGMix, which host loads more music than SuikoX, hasn't received any cease-and-desist letters. DeviantArt hasn't been shut down by angry artists because posters there create derivative works.

If you want to say, "There will be no remixed music on SuikoX.com", then you can do so, and declare the discussion over - after all, you are the sitemaster and you have the right to declare what is permissable to discuss and distribute on this forum. I'll be fine with that. I just think it's unfair to specifically target musicians here who produce music, some of it which may be rearrangements of Suikoden music, while leaving digital artists who create avatars, signatures, and collages alone. I can definitely understand why you want to forbid the trading of pre-published ROMs and existing, official Suikoden music. That is very clearly piracy. However, the creation of derivative work and sampling falls under an extremely gray legal area.

By the way, none of the above is anything personal against you, SARSAdmin... so I hope that you're not taking this as a personal attack on you or your authority on the board.
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Woo, 2000 posts as of Tuesday, 2007 August 28.