Why the Suikoden hero has not been well received

[Starslasher]

Seriously, it wasn't only just Tenkai4 that had a lack of character. About three fifths or so of all the 108 Stars had little to no personality! Those who did have personalities or character development would be:

- Snowe (obviously, as the snotty boy)
- Lino (The Casual King)
- Kika (The level headed and popular pirate)
- Sigurd (I think he had a good amount of history and personality.)
- Warlock (Interesting to actually have a "good" veteran magician)
- Helga (At least she has that extremely-strong-but-clumsy thing going on)
- The Lo siblings (I don't like them, but they weren't boring!)
- Ramada (I really liked this character. Totally underrated by others)


and a few others. But there were even more that lacked substance. Such as:
- Mickey (Totally useless. The only thing to comment on is his face)
- Igor (What does he do? Nothing!)
- Oskar (Is only sneaking into the team supposed to make him a Chizoku star??)
- Haruto (Just what do you do, Haruto? Tov can navigate without you. Die!)
- Gretchen (I am reluctant to put her with these losers. I do like her as a fighter and with looks, but she doesn't have anything unique to give out.)
- Karl (I like him as well, but he goes off for training. How many times have we heard that before?)
- Travis (another anti-social. We already have one!)
- Gareth (probably the most boring character in the 108 Stars of Destiny)
- Eugene (not as boring as Gareth, but still doesn't give anything new)
- Ameria (makeup, schmakeup. Is there anything else you offer?)
- Tov (Just looking at you makes me want to sleep)
- Phil (What use do you have of a tailor?)
- Ema (She's a nice old lady and all, but we already have Deborah, and she actually does something. Sorry)
- The Mermaids (Oh! My! God! We are looking at cloning done in the past! Even the blacksmiths had differences (Mose and Ronnie having Emily, for one.)

and more. Tenkai4 i felt was not as insubstanstial as the group just above him. He had a few differences, such as:
- Double swords
- He was a servant boy, unlike Tir, (who had servants), Riou or Thomas.
- Shorts
- um...

He would probably have more charisma if we got different responses from the rest of the cast. They all pretty much say the same thing when in the confession room, with the exception of Hervey :lol: . But everyone felt that he was strong, a good leader, tought for bearing the Rune, blah blah blah...They could have badmouthed him for wearing black in an apparently tropical setting.
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Guardian of Greenhill & Devoted Protector of Oulan



Bork! Bork! Bork!

[Noot]

[Dragonstar13]

[Futch]

You know him, you love him, Its Riou, check his "pants" or whatever those things are...

Now, bear with me for a second, remember his lower clothing:

http://www.calza-reduc.com.ar/CALZAS.jpg

Taaadaah!

In any case, let us try to critisize the Hero (or anyone for that matter) having in mind what really makes Suikoden different (in my opinion at least) from the regular Rpg's out there which is the Story.

I see some charisma on the hero, he seems indeed very troubled by his rune, let us recall some scenes from the game:

-Before recluting Katarina.

Here the Hero says something that truly made me feel pity for him, it was something like "Will I suffer the same thing that happened to Captain Glenn?"
If that doesn't move you I don't know what, let us face it, this hero has to be different because of a single thing that he is told at the second he wields the True Rune of Punishment:

He will die.

Not one of the Suikoden heros is told that such a thing will happen to them if they use the True Rune. The only rune that comes close to this is the Soul Eater, killing slowly the beloved ones of the wielder, but it's not the same thing, not once did the true rune holder got his life threatened from the simple fact of using the rune.

Now, put yourself in his place, if the fate of an army, heck a Nation is on your hands, and the only thing that can't stop the danger is using the rune that WILL kill you, would you be a very talkative person? I think not.
You would try to get away from people that may try to convince you of using the Rune, because of course, its your neck on the line not theirs, its easy to boss around if you don't get hurt at any moment. *I hate you Tetsu.
But the determination to use a weapon of such power knowing that your fate is sealed is truly a mark of bravery, boldness, or at least some self care.

But this takes me to another moments of the game:

2-Moments in which the hero must choose to use or not to use the rune

In previous Suikodens our heros are willing to use their true rune practically in any moment of danger, there isn't a single plot related question that involves using or not using the rune at hand that draws us to a life threatening situation. If the Hero is in danger, you can bet his rune will shine and help him out, the examples of this are many. For example in Mt.Rakutei in Suikoden 2.

I don't know if Suikoden's 2 bad ending counts at this, but anyway its just one time in the whole game, while here on the other hand we are put in the situation of choosing to use the rune powers many times
But on Suikoden 4 as I stated earlier the Heros life is in danger every time he uses the Rune, and not only that, he is aware of how the Rune powers grow and how in consequence his life force is diminished.
He sees the rune's past with the intensity that no other rune bearer did (Luc would be my second tier on this aspect, but we are talking of heroes using true runes, not other characters) this of course must pain him, let's face it, he must kill the spirit, or the memory, or whatever that "ghost" thingie that appears whenever you the True Rune's power grows is.

This includes destroying the spirit of a child who asks for bread (I couldn't beleive the coldness of the hero in this situation, he slashes the Kid like if it where Luca Blight), and he is even forced into "killing" his role model in order to gain more power: Captain Glenn.

For this, and many other things I have in mind now but won't post just yet because I wanna see how this post developes, I think we should reconsider our perspective when gazing at the Hero of Suikoden 4.

Thanks for bearing my ramblings.
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DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

[Krawnik]

About Rune Bearers and their runes, just a few things that came to mind-

Riou and Jowy are several times almost killed by the power of their runes. Riou collapses left right and centre, usually from fatigue, but at least once from using his Bright Shield Rune (in Tinto, Riou uses his Rune to protect himself from Neclord's curse, and it causes him to collapse). Jowy collapses after the "sacrifice" of Jillia for unknown reasons, but he mentions later that the Black Sword Rune is sucking away his life. It also, you know, kills him, in the bad endings. Jowy used the Rune's power to control the Beast Rune, and it kills him, unless he's saved by the Rune of Beginning.

Tir is given the choice to use or not use the Soul Eater against Windy's army of summoned monsters before the siege on Gregminster, but Leknaat orders him not to, lest he put his own life in danger. Ted almost kills himself using the Rune against Windy.

Also, in Banner Village, the Soul Eater causes Tir to collapse.

Just puttin' that out there >_>
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416- friggin' racists, messing up my generalizations, also stealing my jobs, women.
RIP Ninjalicious

[Futch]

[Starslasher]

Good points, Krawnik. Makes you wonder now what makes the Rune of Punishment different from other True Runes, if it only give power and puts the user's life in danger.
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Guardian of Greenhill & Devoted Protector of Oulan



Bork! Bork! Bork!

[Krawnik]

I think Futch mentioned what makes the Rune of Punishment different from other True Runes- while all True Runes are potentially hazardous to the bearer's health or safety, the Rune of Punishment actually makes a point of trying to kill you. When Riou used the Bright Shield Rune to protect himself from Neclord (In the mines, after Jess and Hauser march on Neclord, but before Neclord captures Tinto), it does succesfully save him, but because of Riou's physical state (age, size, fatigue, whatever), he also collapses from the strain of using the Rune. This is different from the Rune of Punishment in that it is only Riou personally who could not handle the Rune's power, the Rune itself was trying to protect him. Obversly, when HeroIV uses the Rune of Punishment, it will try to kill him. The same thing happens to Ted- Windy mentions that the Rune would be dangerous to use against her because of the confined space in which he was going to use it- the incredibly dangerous magic was felt by him as well as by Windy. This was more of a "backfire" thing- whereas had Ted used the Rune of Punishment, it would attack him back on purpose. Same again with Tir. During Suikoden 1, and still physically at least in Suikoden II, Tir is only a teenager. The power of control over Life and Death is better suited to, say, Ted's Grandfather, and that power would probably still belong to Ted's Grandfather if it weren't for Windy, Neclord, and Yuber torching the village and forcing the him to pass the Rune on to Ted in an emergency. The power of the Rune is still quite overwhelming to poor lil' Tir, and it's strength in Banner causes him to collapse. However- it isn't trying to kill him. The Rune of Punishment, everytime HeroIV uses it, is actually trying to kill him. This is what makes the Rune of Punishment so wildly different from the other True Runes, and what makes HeroIV so different, for better or for worse, from other Tenkai stars or True Rune bearers.

The only other Rune we've seen like the Rune of Punishment is the Black Sword Rune, which Jowy says if you use, it will "take your life", at least when it is used out of sync with the Bright Shield Rune or Rune of Beginning.

Then again, a similar type of Rune would be the Beast Rune, which requires blood sacrifice to become active. Also, to go from a passive state to an active one, the Blue Moon Rune requires 100 blood sacrifices. Still, these sacrifices don't come from the Rune Bearer, which is the main seperating factor between these runes and the spectacularly cruel Rune of Punishment.
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416- friggin' racists, messing up my generalizations, also stealing my jobs, women.
RIP Ninjalicious

[Futch]

Very good points indeed Krawnik, I'll have to replay suikoden 1 because my memory is kind of fuzzy.

But its indeed true, the feeling that all Suikoden games give us is that true runes seem to have quite a few drawbacks in case they are used, and several times it concerns life threatening situations.

I must admit im not a real fan of this hero, the fact that he didn't had voice really bothered me, but more did the fact that when they refer to him it's always as if he were an errand boy or some kind of dummy "Hey, go there, do that"

I know that this is because we get to input the name of the hero, but come one, you could see from miles away that it would seem akward for the player to see the dialog go mute in the part where the hero's name should be spoken.

I think they should have done like in Suikoden 3 and give the hero a default name, and then the possibility to aquire an alias, in the fashion of "The Flame Champion".
I don't know there are millions of posibilities and stories they could have come up with concerning the Rune's past that weren't as vague as what we see on the game.

We get the chance to discover the past bearers of the rune, but none of them is a true living legend, at least not like The Flame Champion. Of course this is what I felt after being introduced to the rune's past.
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DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

[Dragonstar13]

I think they should of done something like FFX, where they never say the character's name. That is why no one really knew how to prounce Tidus correctly since it was never spoken in the actual game. It's kind of annoying to me that everytime someone says the hero's name they don't say anything at all. So I feel that they should not have in there in the first place. Maybe when the characters aren't using their voices they can put in Hero4, name of army, and ship's name. Just my opinion though.
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[Admiral Ackbar]

You might want to grab a drink, because this entry is VERY long.

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I wonder why so many people whine about us comparing Suikoden 4 to previous Suikodens.

We HAVE to.

The games are all in the same setting. Characters return. Places return. Organizations return. It's all in the same world, and events in one game affect the next game and even the previous games. And if events in Suikoden 4 are going to affect events in Suikoden 5, I damn well want Suikoden 4 to be a good game and I'm going to compare it to previous games. And I'm going to compare it to every other Suikoden in the series because it deserves to be compared, criticized, and ripped apart for being a complete and painful failure on so many fronts. You know, there are some games that you expect to be bad. Then there are games you expect to be good. And the ones that you expect to be good but end up bad are even more painful to experience. Suikoden 4 embodies this.

The Suikoden series may of had some bumps in the road (like Suikoden 3's graphics, animation, buddy system, and translation) but the story and characters in the story have ALWAYS been top notch. Luca Blight, Luc, Jowy Atreides, Shu, Chris Lightfellow, Mathiu, Odessa, Ted, Gremio, Geddoe, Nanami, Viktor, Sarah, Sasarai...there are so many characters in the first three games that have become iconic to the series, and fans will always love those characters because they were interesting, they had faults, they had a range of emotions, they had good backgrounds, and they were tragic. Very few Suikoden 4 characters get *anywhere* near that.

And the main character of the game is one of the most lacking elements of the game. Many have already expressed thier opinions on why they dislike him, and I reflect thier opinions. I shall elaborate on my opinions on the Suikoden 4 hero now.

~~~~~
The Hero does not show any emotion.

He has a constant dull expression on his face, which is compounded with a lack of decent dialogue options. Even the 2D sprites of Riou and Tir showed more emotion through a combination of dialogue choices, emotion bubbles, and character reactions. And Suikoden 3 had so many facial expressions for ALL of the characters in the game it was mindboggling, but Suikoden 4 only ever shows facial emotion on a few times, and only on a few characters.

I can't say that at any point in Suikoden 4 I felt anything for the Hero.

I never felt sad when he passed out and defeated a ghost within the Rune of Punishment. I just though "Wow, another crappy spell for a crappy rune! I really wish they would give names and backgrounds to these characters I'm killing so I actually feel bad for them."

I never felt happy when he was reunited with Snowe. I just thought "Finally, all 108 stars, about damn time! Too bad Snowe will never have a speaking line in the game ever again."

I never felt relief and happiness when it was hinted that Lino was his father. I just thought "That was lame...but at least Lino didn't reveal that the world of Suikoden was just a video game for beings from the 4D universe! Dun dun dun!!!"

Really, any emotion the game had was lost after the hero left Razril. The writing and characters were above subpar up until that point, but they became far below subpar after he was exiled. The only emotion I feel in the game comes from Katarina, Glen, Snowe, and a few other supporting characters.

The Suikoden 4 hero is the Keanu Reaves of Suikoden. He has the emotional range of a brick.

~~~~~
The Hero has no one to speak for him.

The only reason Tir works so well was because of Gremio, Cleo, Mathiu, Viktor, and others. Riou was easy to connect to because of Nanami, Shu, Jowy, Viktor, Flik, and others that gave him a personality and range of emotions. They spoke for him during important conversations, and allowed other characters to react to the main character.

In Suikoden 4, the hero meets another character and no one speaks for him. The character he's speaking to doesn't even react much to the main character. They just assume random things about him and agree to follow him. Not only that, but the dialogue of Suikoden 4 is so insanely short and "to the point" that even if they did give him supporting characters to talk for him, they wouldn't say much. Dialogue in this game is so short its insulting.

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No one buys that the Suikoden 4 hero is a leader.

Tir was a general's son. Riou was the decendant of a war hero (and bearer of his rune). Hugo recieved the rune that the Flame Champion (*cough* Fire Hero *cough*) held. Chris was leader of elite knights. Geddoe was a hero from the days of old. Hero4...is literally just some kid that washed on shore one day.

It's extremely hard to buy the fact that everyone thinks of him as a leader. He never makes any important decisions and his rune is *supposedly* dangerous to everyone around him. The characters in the game have no reason whatsoever to follow him, other than the fact that Kika and Lino are with him. Kina and Lino are the true leaders of the game.

And I know that Hero4 is Lino's son, but no one in the game knows that...if Konami had actually put that into the game, revealed it in an event, then it would give a better reason for people to follow Hero4 into war against Kooluk. But they have none.

~~~~~
Lack of history.

In Suikoden 1, you knew that Tir was a general's son. You knew his childhood friend was Ted, and that Gremio, Cleo, and Pahn had served his family for years. You felt that they all got along and you felt that there was a history between the group of them. In Suikoden 2 you knew that Riou was friends with Nanami and Jowy since they were little children, and that Nanami and Riou were adopted by Genkaku. Then later in the game you learn all kinds of things about Genkaku's past as a war hero.

In Suikoden 4, they mention once that the hero served and was raised by Snowe's family. And one random villager mentions that the hero was washed up on shore one day in the past, and thats how he got there (but many players miss that small tidbit). Thats it. Thats all. Two mentions of the hero's past. Unlike the previous games, we never interact with the elements of the hero's past. The hero never really interects with Lord Vingerhut, the man who would be like a father or authority figure to him. There is never any mention of anything Snowe and Hero4 did previous to the game. Keneth, Tal, Jewel, and Paula are set up as childhood friends but there is never any mention of anything they've ever done together. For all we know, they met the day before joining the Razril Knights. That, and his childhood friends become lifeless "insert relevant comment here" characters after Hero4 is exiled.

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Wardrobe malfunctions.

This isn't as important as the others, but it does bear mentioning. Having bad character designs is a given for any video game, Suikoden included. But the main character of a game is supposed to have a certain kind of appearance. S/he doesn't have to look like a supermodel or anything...but they can't look unpleasant. The main character is always present in the game. The player will always have to see the main character. Tir and Riou have some strange clothes on, but they aren't unpleasant to look at. Chris, Geddoe, and Hugo have damn spiffy consumes. Hero4's clothes really aren't too bad in his character artwork, but his 3D model is atrocious. His short-shorts make him look like a work-out video instuctor. His hair is easily mistaken for a helmet. And his half-jacket screams "I wear drag in my free time"

As for his wardrobe being appropriate for his setting...I can't disagree there, except for his knight outfit. Why would marine knights wear metal armor? They work on and around ships and the sea, where they might drown from the weight of thier armor and thier armor can rust easily from exposure. Even worse, the knights wear tight blue spandex under thier khaki shorts. When I first saw the Razril Knights uniforms I literally giggled. It was funny then. Blue spandex bodysuits, with oversized khaki shorts, and knight's chest armor. It had to be a joke.

~~~~~
Horrible execution of the Rune of Punishment.

In Suikoden 1 you feel bad for Tir, and you feel sad when his friends die, and you feel bad for everyone else that had to die because of the war and the Soul Eater. The Soul Eater became more of a villain than Windy; it became its own character. You knew that the Soul Eater was a rune that grew stronger by killing off those closest to the bearer. In Suikoden 2 you feel bad for Riou and Jowy, and you sympathize with the two friends that now have to fight each other on the battlefield. You feel that both of them are hurt by the consequences that thier True Rune has thrown them into. The Rune of Beginning represents conflict, and it shows throughout the game. In Suikoden 3, you feel the importance of having the True Elemental Runes on your side, and they become a beacon of hope to everyone in the Grasslands.

In Suikoden 4, you never really feel that the Rune of Punishment is important. You get it and you're told that it is a terrible curse that devours your life to grow more powerful. It seems set up to be the best True Rune yet, but it falls flat on its face. At no point does the player ever feel that the main character is burdened by the rune, but that is because the rune never does anything that is actually bad. The Soul Eater stole the lives of Ted, Odessa, Gremio, and Teo. The Rune of Beginning forced two best friends to fight a war that killed thousands, and almost each other. In Suikoden 4, the main character gets a True Rune that only causes bad things to happen when the bearer makes those bad things happen. The rune never spirals out of control, it never disobeys the bearer, and it never unleashes its power unless the bearer commands it to. Anyone that had ever been killed by the rune was killed before the hero got it, and it doesn't become much of an issue after he gets it, because you know that it'll only hurt another person if the hero dies, and he won't die until the end of the game.

And you're told that it slowly drains the life force out of the bearer and kills him, all the while showing him the memories of previous bearers and feeding off of the misery the bearer feels. But you never feel that. The supporting characters just say "That rune is a terrible burden, I can never imagine how you feel and what you're going through" What? Yes you can. Just sit on the couch and stare at a wall all day. There, now you know what the burden of the Rune of Punishment is like.

~~~~~

Anyways, I would add more, but my hands hurt and I have to get off soon. And if you've read this far you're only a few more sentences away from a coma. Just be glad the topic isn't Graham Cray. I could write a short novel on why he's the worst character in the series.
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[Scarlet Assassin]

Blue Thunder...have I told you today how much I love you?

I agree wholeheartedly with everything he just said, save for the idea about "Dennis"'s clothes...I really don't care what he's wearing, and the bandana made it kind of cool. THese things made the hero sub-par, but he was a far better Tenkai than Thomas.
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Chief of Beat-em-up Honeys Division, Devoted Protector of Lady Tifa Lockhart

[Futch]

A nice post indeed, your ideas are clear and its very pleasant to read.

Please post something about Cray next, because I hate him too xD (Not because he is evil, just because he sucks)
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DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

[Krawnik]

Yeah, somebody has to tear into Cray. That guy is just too weird. Maybe we could turn the topic into "why the Suikoden IV villain has not been well received. Although if we're going there I have a bone or two to pick with Troy as well.
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416- friggin' racists, messing up my generalizations, also stealing my jobs, women.
RIP Ninjalicious

[Admiral Ackbar]

You know, I was expecting someone to disprove me on every point. Every time I put effort and time into typing an entry, it seems like someone always disproves me ^^;

As for Cray, maybe someday I shall. But for now, I'm a tad busy. These long-winded entries take a while.

Note - That above post got me 200 soldiers! Squee!
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